Rusting in safe.. - Page 2

adamBomb · August 31, 2018, 02:17 PM

Quote:

I have four safes sitting side by side with no differences in temp or humidity from their environment

Have you tested if the inside of the safe has the same humidity as the others?

Old Stony · August 31, 2018, 03:55 PM

All four of my safes have the same environment. There are no wet spots anywhere near to them. I think possibly the high Sulphur in the sheet rock might be creating the problem. There is evidence that Chinese high Sulphur sheet rock causes such problems. I would suspect that there might be more rust under the carpet lining in the safe, but no way to tell at this point. I got an e-mail from the safe company today, saying they would get back to me tomorrow.
I probably have $25,000 worth of guns that have had some rust problems and something has to be done. Hopefully the safe company will stand behind their warranty and not force me to sue them for damages.

adamBomb · August 31, 2018, 04:46 PM

Quote:

All four of my safes have the same environment.

This is different than comparing the humidity in each safe. If one safe is sealed a different way, has a different air flow, different materials, etc. it can cause the humidity in that safe to more more than the others, hence your rust problem. This is why I suggested comparing the humidity in each safe.

mag1911 · September 1, 2018, 04:20 AM

I would demand a new safe, if they'll give you one, plus damages. If they won't give you an new one I'd at least get rid of it and get another. $25k is too much to put at risk trying to "fix" this one.

You'll never be comfortable with this safe again and will always be checking it, and your stuff, for new rust.

smee78 · September 1, 2018, 07:15 AM

Seems like the seal somewhere was compromised. I also agree with adambomb, get a humidity tester and test all 4 of your safes. Yes I know they are all in the same location in the same place in the garage and there is no sign of leaks but again this will help you show that the safe seal has been compromised and may help your case. Hard numbers are better than a calculated hand or eyeball.

thallub · September 1, 2018, 06:41 PM

Corrosive made in China drywall does not require moisture to become corrosive, it outgasses. My son is a contractor who has removed this stuff from homes.

Approximately 100,000 homes, mostly in the south, were built or re-built using corrosive made in China drywall. There were at least five class action lawsuits.

1. Years ago Winchester closed its safe manufacturing plant and went to China.
2. All Winchester safes were made in China for some time.
3. Winchester lost sales because buyers wanted made in USA safes.
4. Winchester re-built their old factory. Some high dollar safes are currently made in the USA.
5. Some safes are still made in China.

"Made in the USA" is a variable thing. To some companies "made in the USA" is a coat of paint applied to an imported item. Other companies make everything in the USA.

http://gunsafechamp.com/winchester-g...-manufactured/

Click on "Made in the USA gun safes" in upper LH corner.

https://www.gunsafes.com/Winchester-...D-=24923224912

**Unclenick** · September 3, 2018, 02:45 PM

Looking at the image, it appears the wallboard on the inside was wet all along the vertical edge. It could be a roof leak dripped water on the safe where it ran down into the door. It could be someone at the factory left the board lying on its side in a wet place or left a pallet of it out in the rain, wetting the edges of the boards in the middle of the stack before they were assembled into a safe.

The arrow pointing to contact rust in the photo is where there clearly was contact against something when water was present, causing the sharp-edged shape. Wet wallboard would do it. Recessed behind it is an area with a less sharp edge to the rust, suggesting the air was highly humid in that area, but the humidity dropped as you got further toward the center, due to mixing with drier air, so the rusting stopped. If acid in the wallboard is responsible, then I would expect the rust to be much more uniformly distributed all over the steel.

The GoldenRod or a light bulb may still solve the issue if water is involved. How they work is commonly misunderstood. Long ago (see Hatcher's Notebook from about pages 345 through 350) it was worked out that relative humidity (RH) holds the key to rusting. Even a bore that had corrosive primer residue in it was found not to rust aggressively until RH became about 68% or a bit higher. It doesn’t matter if it is 68% RH at 50°F or 68% RH at 100°F, that’s the threshold. Temperature difference alone doesn’t make the difference.

Relative humidity is just the amount of water dissolved in air as a percent of the maximum amount of water the air can dissolve. What makes it "relative" instead of just some absolute number of grams of water per cubic meter of air or per kilogram of air is that the maximum amount of water air can dissolve changes with temperature. So, the percentage is relative to how much water air can hold at a particular air temperature. If you can raise the temperature without letting more water into the air, the RH goes down because warm air can dissolve and hold more water than cooler air can. If the air inside and outside the safe is 100ۜ°F and 80% RH and a 25W heater can raise the temperature inside to 110°F, without added water, the RH drops to about 60% and rusting becomes much less aggressive, even in the presence of salt.

That’s why the GoldenRod is advertised to reduce humidity even though it removes no water. All you need to prevent rust is for the air to try to hold onto the water harder than the steel or salt tries to get hold of it. There isn’t actually exact RH at which the salt rust simply ceases because the whole thing is a giant equilibrium condition shift of rates at which water molecules attach to steel and get dried by off by air wanting it more. Instead, ability to rust fades as humidity goes down, first rather sharply (at a different RH for each type of salt) and then more gradually until you get to about 30% RH, below which air is so aggressive at gathering water that for all practical purposes steel can’t rust at all. However, 30% would dry out and crack wood stocks as well, so there really is such a thing as too much of a good thing where lowering RH is concerned.

Old Stony · September 6, 2018, 04:55 PM

Winchester safe company contacted me today and they are shipping me out another safe next week. They viewed the pic's I sent them and apparently decided there was a problem with the safe and they would honor the warranty. I find this as big gesture on their part as they could have tried to twist things in a manner to get out of the whole problem.
Regardless of some opinions, this safe was kept in a good environment and moisture was not a factor in the problem. I would like to see them start coating the metal inside the safe and I think that could do a lot to stop this sort of problem.
My only problem now concerns getting the new safe into my garage next week, as they only deliver them to curbside, and the one coming weighs 898 lbs., and I need to figure out what I am going to do with the old safe as they don't want it back. They are not fun to move around on a concrete floor.

Doyle · September 6, 2018, 07:13 PM

Quote:

They are not fun to move around on a concrete floor.

Easier than moving around on carpet.

Seriously though, if it is a straight shot into your garage then using a half dozen steel pipes as rollers is about the easiest way.

Old Stony · September 6, 2018, 07:35 PM

I have done the pipe thing to move them before, and it is probably the easiest way.

stephen426 · September 8, 2018, 12:30 AM

I’m glad they are honoring their warranty on it. Hope you didn’t get too much damage to your guns. Living in South Florida and less than a mile from the ocean, humidity and the salt air can wreak havoc on guns. I use a golden rod and rechargeable dessicants in my safe. They’ll beside to avoid pouches as those can trap moisture the dessicants can’t pull out. I just noticed some rust on the sights of my Springfield Armory Loaded.

Old Stony · September 21, 2018, 02:34 AM

Got the replacement safe in yesterday, and got it stuck into place in the garage. Between a friend and I, the delivery fellow, and two workers that were here to install a new A/C system..we managed to get it off the pallet and into place. Winchester did honor the warranty in a gracious manner and without any trying to wiggle out of it. It is nice to see a company that will back up their products like this.

September 1, 2018, 07:15 AM	#30
smee78 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,918	Seems like the seal somewhere was compromised. I also agree with adambomb, get a humidity tester and test all 4 of your safes. Yes I know they are all in the same location in the same place in the garage and there is no sign of leaks but again this will help you show that the safe seal has been compromised and may help your case. Hard numbers are better than a calculated hand or eyeball. __________________ We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are

September 3, 2018, 02:45 PM	#32
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Looking at the image, it appears the wallboard on the inside was wet all along the vertical edge. It could be a roof leak dripped water on the safe where it ran down into the door. It could be someone at the factory left the board lying on its side in a wet place or left a pallet of it out in the rain, wetting the edges of the boards in the middle of the stack before they were assembled into a safe. The arrow pointing to contact rust in the photo is where there clearly was contact against something when water was present, causing the sharp-edged shape. Wet wallboard would do it. Recessed behind it is an area with a less sharp edge to the rust, suggesting the air was highly humid in that area, but the humidity dropped as you got further toward the center, due to mixing with drier air, so the rusting stopped. If acid in the wallboard is responsible, then I would expect the rust to be much more uniformly distributed all over the steel. The GoldenRod or a light bulb may still solve the issue if water is involved. How they work is commonly misunderstood. Long ago (see Hatcher's Notebook from about pages 345 through 350) it was worked out that relative humidity (RH) holds the key to rusting. Even a bore that had corrosive primer residue in it was found not to rust aggressively until RH became about 68% or a bit higher. It doesn’t matter if it is 68% RH at 50°F or 68% RH at 100°F, that’s the threshold. Temperature difference alone doesn’t make the difference. Relative humidity is just the amount of water dissolved in air as a percent of the maximum amount of water the air can dissolve. What makes it "relative" instead of just some absolute number of grams of water per cubic meter of air or per kilogram of air is that the maximum amount of water air can dissolve changes with temperature. So, the percentage is relative to how much water air can hold at a particular air temperature. If you can raise the temperature without letting more water into the air, the RH goes down because warm air can dissolve and hold more water than cooler air can. If the air inside and outside the safe is 100ۜ°F and 80% RH and a 25W heater can raise the temperature inside to 110°F, without added water, the RH drops to about 60% and rusting becomes much less aggressive, even in the presence of salt. That’s why the GoldenRod is advertised to reduce humidity even though it removes no water. All you need to prevent rust is for the air to try to hold onto the water harder than the steel or salt tries to get hold of it. There isn’t actually exact RH at which the salt rust simply ceases because the whole thing is a giant equilibrium condition shift of rates at which water molecules attach to steel and get dried by off by air wanting it more. Instead, ability to rust fades as humidity goes down, first rather sharply (at a different RH for each type of salt) and then more gradually until you get to about 30% RH, below which air is so aggressive at gathering water that for all practical purposes steel can’t rust at all. However, 30% would dry out and crack wood stocks as well, so there really is such a thing as too much of a good thing where lowering RH is concerned. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 8, 2018, 12:30 AM	#36
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I’m glad they are honoring their warranty on it. Hope you didn’t get too much damage to your guns. Living in South Florida and less than a mile from the ocean, humidity and the salt air can wreak havoc on guns. I use a golden rod and rechargeable dessicants in my safe. They’ll beside to avoid pouches as those can trap moisture the dessicants can’t pull out. I just noticed some rust on the sights of my Springfield Armory Loaded. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

August 31, 2018, 03:55 PM	#27
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	All four of my safes have the same environment. There are no wet spots anywhere near to them. I think possibly the high Sulphur in the sheet rock might be creating the problem. There is evidence that Chinese high Sulphur sheet rock causes such problems. I would suspect that there might be more rust under the carpet lining in the safe, but no way to tell at this point. I got an e-mail from the safe company today, saying they would get back to me tomorrow. I probably have $25,000 worth of guns that have had some rust problems and something has to be done. Hopefully the safe company will stand behind their warranty and not force me to sue them for damages.

September 1, 2018, 04:20 AM	#29
mag1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Posts: 140	I would demand a new safe, if they'll give you one, plus damages. If they won't give you an new one I'd at least get rid of it and get another. $25k is too much to put at risk trying to "fix" this one. You'll never be comfortable with this safe again and will always be checking it, and your stuff, for new rust.

September 1, 2018, 06:41 PM	#31
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Corrosive made in China drywall does not require moisture to become corrosive, it outgasses. My son is a contractor who has removed this stuff from homes. Approximately 100,000 homes, mostly in the south, were built or re-built using corrosive made in China drywall. There were at least five class action lawsuits. 1. Years ago Winchester closed its safe manufacturing plant and went to China. 2. All Winchester safes were made in China for some time. 3. Winchester lost sales because buyers wanted made in USA safes. 4. Winchester re-built their old factory. Some high dollar safes are currently made in the USA. 5. Some safes are still made in China. "Made in the USA" is a variable thing. To some companies "made in the USA" is a coat of paint applied to an imported item. Other companies make everything in the USA. http://gunsafechamp.com/winchester-g...-manufactured/ Click on "Made in the USA gun safes" in upper LH corner. https://www.gunsafes.com/Winchester-...D-=24923224912

September 6, 2018, 04:55 PM	#33
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Winchester safe company contacted me today and they are shipping me out another safe next week. They viewed the pic's I sent them and apparently decided there was a problem with the safe and they would honor the warranty. I find this as big gesture on their part as they could have tried to twist things in a manner to get out of the whole problem. Regardless of some opinions, this safe was kept in a good environment and moisture was not a factor in the problem. I would like to see them start coating the metal inside the safe and I think that could do a lot to stop this sort of problem. My only problem now concerns getting the new safe into my garage next week, as they only deliver them to curbside, and the one coming weighs 898 lbs., and I need to figure out what I am going to do with the old safe as they don't want it back. They are not fun to move around on a concrete floor.

September 6, 2018, 07:35 PM	#35
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I have done the pipe thing to move them before, and it is probably the easiest way.

September 21, 2018, 02:34 AM	#37
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Got the replacement safe in yesterday, and got it stuck into place in the garage. Between a friend and I, the delivery fellow, and two workers that were here to install a new A/C system..we managed to get it off the pallet and into place. Winchester did honor the warranty in a gracious manner and without any trying to wiggle out of it. It is nice to see a company that will back up their products like this.