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October 23, 2020, 11:57 AM | #26 | ||
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So what is it that you want to discuss? Quote:
You said this isn't TEOTWAWKI, so what do you want to do now? Nothing stated by Biden or the gun violence folks actionable at this point except voting. Pretty much everyone here is going to vote Republican, so that isn't much for a discussion.
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October 23, 2020, 01:22 PM | #27 | ||
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For instance, will you sell your AR-15 to the gubmint? Will you register it as an NFA weapon along with all your mags? Which of those proposals that are adopted (if we get the blue tsunami) will pass SCOTUS muster? How will the gubmint enforce such measures. Will there be widespread push back from our tribe? Maybe you have some good questions too. Me thinks with the election and the recent NRA follies that the winds they are a changing. Maybe I'm wrong so encourage me. Or I guess we could just wait a while longer and see. You guys call (if the mods allow it) meanwhile we could debate 9mm vs .45?
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October 23, 2020, 03:51 PM | #28 | ||
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October 23, 2020, 05:39 PM | #29 |
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What Me Worry
It is always good to worry about cries to restrict the Second Amendment. It is appropriate to get excited about every effort at Gun Control. Remember that all that legislation has already passed the House and is sitting in the Senate. Even if those all are passed into law, the result will be the same. There will be immediate challenges to them. These measures will all go directly through the Federal Court system. The Supreme Court is soundly on the side of the angels here with the Second Amendment. We should be efforting at doing what we can to stop bad actors within our own ranks to ensure that we only tolerate responsible gun ownership and responsible gun usage.
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October 23, 2020, 08:59 PM | #30 | ||
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Gone, done, overwith. The same thing can be reintroduced the next session, but it has to start all over again at the beginning of the process. It does NOT pick up where it left off last session.
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October 23, 2020, 09:00 PM | #31 |
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The U S. Supreme Court barely (5-4) recognized the 2nd Amendment as a right in the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution. And what exactly is responsible gun ownership and usage?
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October 23, 2020, 11:40 PM | #32 | |
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So Heller didn't narrowly recognize the right, Heller helped to [partially] define the extent of the right.
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October 24, 2020, 09:47 AM | #33 | ||
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Bad ideas may manifest themselves most concretely in state power, but they are born much earlier and are provided an on-ramp into the law by the people who propose that they should be laws. It isn't merely speculation to foresee that a fellow who runs for office saying he will have government do "X", and is elected by people who want government to do "X", may get the votes to make "X" into law. Red Flag Laws and Universal Background Checks were bad ideas before they were bad laws, and even people here don't always see why those might be bad ideas initially. Quote:
I'd like to see Heller re-affirmed 9-0.
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October 24, 2020, 11:26 AM | #34 | |
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October 24, 2020, 11:36 AM | #35 | |
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October 24, 2020, 12:06 PM | #36 | |
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I'd say that the argument for a right that I don't have to assert against the state isn't a right as the term is used in constitutional law. The idea of a "collective right" to freedom of speech, religion, travel, marriage, freedom from unreasonable searches or seizures, or a "collective right" to vote wouldn't pass a laugh test. That some people have public policy positions and goals to which the Commerce Clause and the 1st, 2d, 4th, 5th, 9th and 10th amendments are an obstacle shouldn't reduce those parts of our laws to roadkill left on our journey through history.
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October 24, 2020, 12:11 PM | #37 | |||
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As an example, I'll use the state constitution analogs to the Second Amendment: Pennsylvania: Quote:
Massachusetts (1780 version): Quote:
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October 24, 2020, 04:35 PM | #38 | |
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However, that's your call to not think about it until it is reality because if the blue tsunami that's predicted happens then your reality will be there right quick. However, as a board policy maybe others should be allowed to discuss? Curious what the other mods think. Anyway, it sometimes kinda dead in here so couldn't we use the mental exercise? It doesn't HAVE to be 2008.
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October 24, 2020, 04:45 PM | #39 |
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If we see the blue tsunami the media are trying to generate, whether or not we discuss anything here won't matter because we'll be powerless to prevent it. (Whatever "it" is.) I've found that the verbiage of actual bills (proposed laws) is often different from what the legislators involved promoted in their campaign verbiage, which is why I prefer to wait until there is actual legislation proposed. Then we have something concrete to which we can respond.
Unless, of course, the proposed bill is so long and confusing that "We'll just have to pass it to see what's in it."
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October 25, 2020, 01:01 PM | #40 | |
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While Illinois is certainty not the most gun friendly state, it's not as bad as most people believe it to be. Chicago, yes, it absolutely sucks, outside the city limits it's not that bad. Chicago doesn't cover the entire state. It's 234 square miles and less than 40% of the population, compared to 58,000 square miles of the rest of the state. Just for fun, I think I'll go clean my dozens of 30 round magazines that most people outside of Illinois think I can't own. I can, they are perfectly legal. |
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October 25, 2020, 05:22 PM | #41 |
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I always thought the concept of a collective right was awkward. It is a right that the group possesses, but no member of the group can assert.
If no one in the group can claim the right, how can the group claim it? Groups are collections of individuals. You cannot seriously claim the public has freedom of speech, if none of the people that make up "the public" has freedom of speech. |
October 25, 2020, 05:46 PM | #42 | |
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October 25, 2020, 06:19 PM | #43 | |
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That said, the Massachusetts Supreme Court has, in the past, ruled that their state constitution protects only a collective right. That's how they justify some of their arbitrary and draconian gun laws and, so far, nobody has challenged any of them to the point of getting them before the SCOTUS.
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October 25, 2020, 08:23 PM | #44 |
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At the risk of derailing an otherwise interesting argument, I will again point out that the Bill of Rights grants NO rights. (and, I think, deliberately so)
It is a list of restrictions on the government action in regard to certain enumerated rights which exist as a result of the human condition, not any document made by man. And it also contains the language that there more rights than just those enumerated in the BOR and to whom they respectively belong.
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October 26, 2020, 08:42 AM | #45 | |
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1. Do we construe language in favor of a government power? An example might be interstate commerce in which distant or aggregate effect are enough to empower the government to act. 2. Do we construe language against a government power? An example might be the establishment clause where a prohibition on Congressional establishment of a government religion develops into a sense that religiously informed expression at public events could be a problem. The collective right theory expressed by the Heller minority appears to me to construe the language in favor of the government power. It requires a special definition of "the people" to conclude that while some kind of right must exist because it has a number and a sentence in the document, it's the only one an individual can't have. That's a sort of three card monte with the substance of the right.
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October 26, 2020, 12:04 PM | #46 | |||
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October 27, 2020, 11:42 AM | #47 |
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Folks, the democrat platform is to eliminate private ownership of guns...............Under a communist/socialist regime civilians do not legally own firearms. Armed citizens are very hard to control. Do you think Hitler could have loaded the Jews into boxcars if they had been armed?????
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October 27, 2020, 02:42 PM | #48 | |
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We've drifted a long way from Biden's announced policies and I think we've covered the OP fairly well and tolerated a lot of thread drift, but i don't see anything further on topic to discuss. Time to close this one, I think.
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