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July 29, 2014, 05:29 PM | #76 | |
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July 29, 2014, 07:36 PM | #77 |
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I'm not speaking only/specifically about "carry" permits or even current statutes. I'm pointing out examples of how it's been done before and how I expect DC to do it. NY State and Chicago, among other places, all have examples that DC can follow. It doesn't even matter if they've been struck down. Take out the sentence that was struck and add two new ones, start the clock all over again.
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July 29, 2014, 10:43 PM | #78 |
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The article linked above doesn't say which federal judge issued the stay. Was it Scullin? I would have thought that unlikely since he could have issued the stay at the same time he released his decision? A judge on the DC CoA? Anyone know?
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July 30, 2014, 07:39 AM | #79 | |
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Here is the full text of the stay (document 53):
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July 30, 2014, 08:42 AM | #80 |
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So, the window for carrying in DC has closed, at least until October 22. At least the clock is ticking.
Who makes such laws in DC? Is it just the city counsel, or would congress be involved?
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July 30, 2014, 08:56 AM | #81 | |
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Thanks, Al.
I love this from the DC motion for a stay: Quote:
Looks like the only thing that Scullin used to grant the motion was that Gura et al. did not oppose a 90 day stay. Not sure why they didn't. |
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July 30, 2014, 09:31 AM | #82 | ||
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And did you read the footnotes? Quote:
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July 30, 2014, 09:31 AM | #83 | |
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July 30, 2014, 09:47 AM | #84 |
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We should also recognize that anytime a court strikes down a law, there is almost always a stay granted to preserve the status quo, while the governing body rewrites its law to be compliant with the court order.
DC has two choices here. They can comply with the Court by writing a law (like IL), or they can appeal the decision. The court has indicated that if they fail to comply, the court doesn't believe they have any merits that the appeals court will reverse on. Hence the footnote #2, which is also an indication that DC will not get its requested 180 stay. The Judge is telling DC to tread lightly, and go one way or the other. |
July 30, 2014, 09:56 AM | #85 | ||
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July 30, 2014, 10:43 AM | #86 | ||
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If the judge accepts their arguments, they have 180 days- until 20 Jan 2015 or thereabouts- to actually appeal. If the judge rejects their arguments- which is arguably likely given the strong wording of the decision AND the stay- the 90-day deadline to enact a reasonable carry permit system remains in effect. Correct? Quote:
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July 30, 2014, 11:49 AM | #87 | |
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July 30, 2014, 02:23 PM | #88 |
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Normally, in a civil case (such as this), the losing party has 30 days to file their NOTICE of Appeal, from the date that the entry of Judgment is made by the court clerk (Rule 4(a)(1)(A)).
Because the defendant (D.C.) is a Federal Agency, they come under Rule 4(a)(B)(ii), which gives them 60 days to file their NOTICE of Appeal. Time starts the day after the court clerk files the Judgment. The clerk entered the judgment yesterday, the 29th. So today counts as the first day. Therefore, D.C. has until Friday the 26th of Sept. to file their NOTICE of Appeal. The current stay runs out on Oct. 27th. This allows D.C. to request a 30 day extension of time to file. The Judge deliberately set up this time frame, to account for this. So I don't believe he will grant the additional 90 days (the Motion for 180 days Stay). However, once the City files their Notice of Appeal, they can then ask the Motions panel of the circuit for a stay, pending appeals, and it will likely be granted. This is why I say that the City has only two choices. Appeal or re-write their laws. The other thing to consider, is that according to the judgment, whatever the City provides, it will be a "shall issue" law (however many hoops they impose upon the applicants). |
July 30, 2014, 03:36 PM | #89 |
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Mr. Norris, thank you for your legal beagle info.
let's see, how hard and expensive can they make this (so the average working stiff can't get one). 2 days of class training, in person application submittal only, fairly difficult shooting test. have to shoot the ammo you will carry (some hollow points are $1/shot. application fees class fees shooting fees cost of gun and rig cost of ammo liability insurance? and on and on. lived in DC area for 30+ years. what a mess. |
July 30, 2014, 04:14 PM | #90 | |
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SAF, ACLDN, IDPA, handgunlaw.us My AmazonSmile benefits SAF I'd rather be carried by 6 than caged by 12. 2020: It's pronounced twenty twenty. |
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July 30, 2014, 04:17 PM | #91 |
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likely based on the opinion's reliance on the Peruta case.
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August 1, 2014, 10:04 AM | #92 | ||
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In Judge Scullin's injunction it states that on the application to register a firearm the plaintiffs wrote that their purpose was to carry outside the home for self defense. Their initial application was denied based on this. Judge Scullin also cites Peruta vs. San Diego in the injunction. If DC submits a may issue carry scheme it will be undoubtedly rejected by Judge Scullin because carrying outside the home for the purpose of self defense is shall issue. Several of DC's council members are hell bent on crafting a may issue law like Maryland's in which you need a good and substantial reason to qualify for the carry permit . Only one, council chaiman Phil Mendelson, has cautioned that they need to do their best to get it right the first time. This is why I and others think that DC will appeal the ruling. The majority of them simply refuse to accept the concept of shall issue permitting. |
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August 1, 2014, 12:46 PM | #93 |
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I'd love to see them try to circumvent the ruling and get handcuffed on a contempt of court charge, but that will never happen.
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August 1, 2014, 01:19 PM | #94 |
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I think the strongest evidence that the ruling intends to mean shall issue is that, absent a license to carry, it is still legal to carry. The city can only satisfy the ruling if the end result of any new regulation is that non-prohibited persons can carry outside the home. It is the central point of the holding. Standard disqualifiers such as felonies or domestic violence are the exceptions that prove the rule.
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August 1, 2014, 02:52 PM | #95 |
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part of the underlying argument with Peruta was that CA banned open carry, and basically limited concealed carry to nonexistent. opinion said you can pick one or the other as the societally accepted norm (it noted that society has wavered back and forth on this matter, concealed now being more ok than in the past), but you can't pick neither.
in NM open carry is fine as a matter of right (no permit required), but concealed does require a permit (with attendant training and background checks). so DC can either do open carry, or concealed carry, but not neither. |
August 2, 2014, 10:44 AM | #96 | |
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August 2, 2014, 02:36 PM | #97 | |
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1. Both allowed w/o permit (Vermont style) 2. Open carry w/o permit, concealed with permit (Ohio/PA style) 3. Both allowed but only with a permit (CT style)\ Am I missing any? |
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August 3, 2014, 08:22 AM | #98 |
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The language Scullin used seems to negate any attempt at may-issue, but will DC's new law necessarily have to get Scullin's OK?
IOW-DC adopts a may-issue scheme, does the case stay alive or is it technically mooted and another case must be filed to challenge "good cause" or whatever variation they choose? Also, if DC appeals can the DC Circuit re-write Scullin's order and bend over backwards to ensure DC wastes more time and plays the Chicago whack-a-mole game? |
August 3, 2014, 08:30 AM | #99 |
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They can also adopt a CC only scheme (I believe they'll do this), probably based on a DC-only permit.
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August 3, 2014, 09:00 AM | #100 | ||
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