Are Nighthawk Custon 1911's worth the money?

[MLeake]

WVSig, entry Les Baer pistols are $1800, not $3000.

[KO3422]

It's all up to you. Only you can answer that. I'd be happy with a less expensive 1911, but that's due to lack of funds. They are, no doubt, good guns though!

[WVsig]

Yes there are Les Baers at $1800 mark but there are also many in the $3,000+ range. You pointing out that they start at $1,800 does not alter my point.

[MLeake]

It does, in the sense that Wilson, Brown, and Nighthawk start several hundred dollars higher, and also top out above Baer.

[WVsig]

No it doesn't re-read what I posted. Value is in the eye of the beholder and paying double does not mean you got double the gun... Change the name chnge the price point and the statement remains the same... But maybe you didn't really understand my initial point.

[MLeake]

I understood your point, but disagreed with your ballpark; most Baers are not in the $3000 range, whereas most current DWs are in the $1500 you cited, and most Nighthawks approach or surpass $3000.

[WVsig]

If that is your stickig point you have clearly missed the point.. The names do not matter the price point does not matter. What matters is does the individual see the value of paying more and that one cannot expect double the pistol for double the price regardless of the price point.

[stephen426]

The point is diminishing returns as price increases. As I already mentioned, You mostly gain exclusivity with some increases in performance. It is mostly fit and finish at that level. If you bench rested a Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, and Nighthawk Custom, I doubt you would get any major improvements in accuracy. I forget who on this forum has several copies of each, but maybe they have tried it.

I believe that the hand fitting and tighter tolerances will provide some improvements in accuracy over standard mil-spec 1911s. Then again, you can swap out a couple of pieces such as a match grade barrel and barrel bushing, give it a trigger job, and get most of the way there.

This would be the equivalent to tuning a stock Honda, Ford, Chevy (whatever), to near Ferrari performance. While the car by be as fast or even faster, the sum of the parts is not the same as owning a Ferrari. I have driven a Ferrari F430 on a track and it is an amazing experience. The car is just so capable and handles so well.

A high end 1911 is just about better tolerances, hand fitting, and better finishes. There are no technological advances as with a car. When it is all said and done, it is more about how it makes you feel.

[buckhorn_cortez]

Like with anything the law of deminishing returns kicks in. You will pay double $1500 for a Dan Wesson or $3000 for a Wilson/ higher end Les Baers /Ed Brown/Nighthawk etc... Are you getting double the pistol? IMHO no but that does not mean they are not worth double.

Has more do with individual features that may make the pistol more usable for the owner. Yes, a Dan Wesson and a Wilson Supergrade both do the same thing - shoot bullets. In that aspect, you don't get 2x the performance - but, then you don't if you compare a Glock with a Hi-Point either - both of those pistols shoot bullets too with the Glock costing more.

What you do get with an expensive 1911 are custom features, that for some people, make the gun work better for them. In that aspect, I would not advise buying an off-the-shelf semi-custom pistol as you're missing the reason for buying the gun, which is tailoring it to your own personal needs.

This has nothing to do with having no roll marks, or Wilson in script instead of block letters, but has everything to do with things like level of dehorning, rear of the slide checkered to make it easier to acquire the rear sight, etc. There are things that can and do make a pistol perform better - if you're aware of them and can use them.

The question then is - are the features worth the money? That's a value judgement each person has to make for themselves. For the "all I care about is if it goes bang" etc. crowd, probably not. For other people, it makes a difference and they can use the features.

If it's a waste of money for you - that's fine, it's not a waste of money for everyone because you don't want or need the features yourself.

I never understand why people get so wrapped around the axle on this subject and why it is so important what someone else buys.

[buckhorn_cortez]

If you bench rested a Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, and Nighthawk Custom, I doubt you would get any major improvements in accuracy.

Actually - you do. I have a full custom built by Bob Marvel and it will shoot under 1.4-inches at 50 yards using a Ransom Rest. The Les Baer Heavyweight Monolith I have came with two 50 yard targets and they are right at 1.5-inches.

The CQB and Supergrade test targets were shot at 25 yards and they are about 1.5-inches.

For overall accuracy + handling for target use - the Baer Monolith is the best because of the extra weight. For pure handling quickness and accuracy - the Commander size Supergrade is by far the best.

It's interesting when you can shoot the guns side-by-side, one after the other. There are real performance differences between them that are more than just accuracy.

Virtually everyone who has shot the Supergrade looks at the gun, shakes their head, and either smiles or laughs and says, "I've never shot anything like that." It is so naturally pointable, is so well balanced, makes follow up shots simple with a trigger that is perfect - that you can't help being amazed by shooting it.

Likewise, at longer distances, the Les Baer will make you laugh out loud because it's like having a laser beam - you hit things at distances you didn't think possible.

[stephen426]

buckhorn_cortez,

If .1" is your idea of a "major improvement", they by all means spend the money on the higher end 1911s. Without bench resting the gun, can you actually tell the difference in accuracy? Another question is did you run different ammo through each gun? Different guns like different types of ammo. Regardless of any improvements, they are not necessary for practical purposes such as self defense situations. The difference may matter in competition or maybe even bragging rights, but for most people, it doesn't matter.

I just want to clarify something for those who have not had the chance to shoot a Les Baer Monolith Heavyweight. There is additional weight towards the front of the gun, but it is still balanced right under the trigger guard. It does help with the recoil, but it is too big and heavy to carry.

I also have a Les Ber Thunder Ranch Special and it is also an amazing gun. It is also extremely accurate, but is designed for carry. Everyone who has shot that gun is incredibly impressed by how easy it is to shoot well.

Back to the car analogy, how many people need a car that can do 0-60 in under 4.5 seconds or is capable of going over 160 mph. It matters on a track or maybe the German Autobahns, but for most Americans, it doesn't matter. Does that mean that I should not enjoy my car? Absolutely not.

[buckhorn_cortez]

If .1" is your idea of a "major improvement", they by all means spend the money on the higher end 1911s.

It is if you shoot bullseye competitions. Yeah - I think a 0.1 of an inch is quite an improvement because at 1.5 inches at 50 yards you're pushing the mechanical limits of a 1911. To squeeze almost another 0.15 inch out of the same platform is impressive to me.

Without bench resting the gun, can you actually tell the difference in accuracy?

If you shoot a lot, I think you can. I do some action pistol type shooting and it can make the difference in hitting an "A" zone rather than the "B" on a torso target.

Another question is did you run different ammo through each gun? Different guns like different types of ammo.

I got tired of reloading ammunition for .45's, 9mm, and .223 about 25 years ago as I spent too many hours doing that and not enough shooting - so, I just shoot whatever I can find in quality ammunition at the best price. There are, in fact, specific loads for the Bob Marvel gun that Bob worked up for that gun for the greatest accuracy.

I do, however, reload for my 6mm, 30-338, .308, .460 S&W, .44 magnum, and .41 magnum and am well aware of working up loads for the greatest accuracy. If I shot bullseye or other precision target sports - then yes, I would work up loads for the .45's.

Regardless of any improvements, they are not necessary for practical purposes such as self defense situations.

It always comes down to someone stating that their opinions can be applied ubiquitously to everyone else. I don't agree with you as many of the improvements can make a difference in a self defense situation for me as well as general use.

The difference may matter in competition or maybe even bragging rights, but for most people, it doesn't matter.

How do you know what is applicable to "most people"? These are the kind of statements that make me laugh as there is no way to prove them and it's really just your opinion - not a fact.

I sometimes carry an HK P30 - but that doesn't make it the best pistol for everyone and every situation. It just happens to be a polymer pistol that I like.

I also carry the .460 S&W and a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in certain situations - and both of those have been modified to my liking.

In fact, every gun I own with the exception of the P30 has been modified in some way. As an example, I have an S&W 625 revolver. The trigger has been worked on for better single and double action trigger pulls, the barrel has been recrowned, and the extractor edges on extractor star have been "eased" so that it loads faster with the moon clips.

I see no reason to not tailor guns for best individual performance. With a 1911 you have the ability to tailor the entire gun - and that's what has been done with all of mine.

[stephen426]

Buckhorn_Cortez,

I might venture a guess and say that you do not fall within the "norm" or shooting capability or financial means. How many people do you think can extract every last micron of accuracy out of a gun that isn't bench rested? I would also guess that custom 1911s of that caliber (pun intended) are out of the reach of most people (most can be anything above 51%). We can conduct a poll if you like, but I'd bet less than 5% of the members of this forum own a high end (above $2000) 1911 and less than 1% own more than one high end 1911 (or own a 1911 above $3000).

If you shoot a lot, I think you can. I do some action pistol type shooting and it can make the difference in hitting an "A" zone rather than the "B" on a torso target.

We are talking about .15 inches at 50 yards. How far away are your targets that it can make a difference? I think part of it can be handling characteristics or maybe even the sights. I would chalk that up to the user's ability. If you take a superior driver and you put him in a car that underperforms (slightly), he should still be able to beat an inferior driver in the better car.

It always comes down to someone stating that their opinions can be applied ubiquitously to everyone else. I don't agree with you as many of the improvements can make a difference in a self defense situation for me as well as general use.

Since you quoted my post, I'm going to assume you read it and then misinterpreted it. I said the improvements were not necessary (as in you HAVE TO HAVE THEM). Plenty of people have defended themselves with out of the box guns that are far inferior to yours so it proves those upgrades are NOT necessary. Can the modifications make improvements for self defense purposes? Sure! But a difference in accuracy of .15 inches at 50 yards will NOT make a typical self defense distance (within 7-10 feet according to the FBI and Chuck Taylor) or even typical police shootings (21 feet).

How do you know what is applicable to "most people"? These are the kind of statements that make me laugh as there is no way to prove them and it's really just your opinion - not a fact.

I'm glad I make you laugh. ;-) How many SWAT team officers or elite special forces carry high end customized 1911s? I'd venture a guess that they might see a little more action than you have. In addition, you can easily look up FBI crime stats and see how many shootings even involved high end 1911s. You can say it is just my opinion, or maybe chalk it up to common sense. Then again, common sense isn't common.

None of my carry guns are customized other than the addition of night sights and a trigger guard laser from Crimson Trace. The last thing I need is for someone to be tinkering with the insides of my guns and make it less reliable. While a justified shoot is a justified shoot, there have been a few cases where aggressive DAs have gone after a person for defending himself with a highly modified gun.

I doubt any of this will change your opinion of the matter or about me so I'll just leave it at that. Other than nicer guns, I'm sure you also have more time to argue on chat forums. Have a great day!