"... don't look at his eyes." ???

[Melos]

I just watched the movie, Executive Decision, wherein the commando team leader said to the Pentagon-employed civilian, drafted to be an ad hoc gunman, "... don't look at his eyes."

Please comment on this exhortation to not look at the eyes of a BG during a gunfight.

[KSFreeman]

Because under Hollywierd RoE you will turn to stone!

The eyes don't kill, the hands do. If you look into his dreamboat eyes, you may hesitate. Besides, you should be looking at your frontsight so you can win the fight.

[LawDog]

The only way somebody else is going to hurt you with his eyes is if he rips them out of his head and throws them at you -- and he's still going to have to use his hands to do it.

Remember that during a fight you're going to have tunnel-vision. If you're looking the critter in the eyes, the tunnel-vision is going to limit your field of vision to his face.

Which means that if the critter drops his two-inch folding knife and whips out his BFG-2K, you probably won't know it, and won't be able to change tactics before starting your next incarnation.

Although, many long moons ago, I was told by an older gentleman who had Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt that looking into someone's eyes turned them from a threat needing to be dealt with, into a fellow human being.

It was his considered opinion that thinking of a threat to your life as a human being led to you empathizing with that fellow human being and caused you to become rapidly dead or a psych casualty.

Both of which should be avoided.

*shrug*

Take your pick. YMMV.

LawDog

[Blackhawk]

Well, if his eyes just happen to be my target, I'm going to be looking momentarily at one of them anyway....

As LawDog says, you're going to have tunnel vision (from adrenaline), and you'll practically be able to count his eyelashes just as you'll be able to see amazing detail at anything you look at during such a time. There's also kind of a time warp that will go on in that everything will seem to be in slow motion except you.

Problem is that if you're not expecting those phenomena, they're liable to be distracting when they're wonderful enhancements of your senses designed to help you survive. You may have to train yourself to "scan" your assailant by deliberately changing your gaze to hand to hand to eyes to hand, etc., so it becomes habitual.

Never had that situation with a human adversary, but I spent countless hours training for the eventuality in air combat. When it happened "for real" in Vietnam, I was, and still am, absolutely amazed at how efficient the brain and senses suddenly become. I've never read a realistic account of what happens, and there's no way I can think of to describe it. The thing to remember is the rule that applies to every hazardous situation, and that is don't allow yourself to fixate on any one thing. Take it all in so your brain has the information it needs to evaluate what's going on.

[KSFreeman]

Erick, the only exception to this is hunting the young & nubile. "Hi" and eye contact will at least set you up for a shot 4 out of 5 times.

[Edward429451]

The eyes are an interesting thing though. One of my teachers, when I was real new at this, pointed out to my that only two kinds of people have a propensity for making eye contact. Generally, it's Cops & predatory Crooks. He theorized, and it seems to hold true, that it is due to the need to size up and determine the threat another presents.

Is that why my encounters with LEO's go downhill fast? I always look em in the eye. So you're saying that they see me as predatory? A potential threat for standing up lookin em in the eye instead of nervous furtive glances and staring at the ground or whatever. I've always been of the mind that people who won't look you in the eye are not to be trusted (Not talking about the young and nubile here) and those that will probably can be trusted. I once got a job because in the interview I looked him dead in the eye while talking and the other guy who was applying for the position would not look the guy in the eye. We were similarly skilled but I got the nod for that reason. They told me that.

Of course I've heard that if you look dogs in the eye, they see it as a threat, but I've never really made the connection to LEO's in the same light. I've been lookin people in the eye for years, probably cant stop now...

The eyes are the window to the soul. Much insight can be gleaned by doing this, and much can be communicated without ever speaking. Trying to do the right thing is like panning for gold flecks in a bowl of diarheea, Sometimes you win, sometimes it works against ya'...
Do you guys always look LEO's in the eye when stopped or whatever?
Do you LEO's get nervous when someone looks you in the eye too long?
Anybody think there's a connection to sheeple types not making eye contact and men who do make eye contact?

Very thought provoking. Hmmmm...

[pbarrick]

Looking at his eyes isn't really going to tell you a whole lot and it makes it harder to keep track of his hands. Man's a weapon-bearing animal and keeping track of his hands is much more important than the dubious skill of "reading his eyes".

You'll do a lot more good by looking at where you want your bullets to go...

Of course, movement off the line of attack and toward cover is critical to increasing your survival potential.

Any time you find a need to "size the guy up", you've just gone into Condition Orange (specific threat). Why do I need to make eye contact to figure out what he's going to do? I need to be moving to a position of advantage and preparing to engage and/or exit safely.

[cbjessee@NH]

At a self-defense seminar, we first did some techniques on our partners, then did them while looking our partners in the eyes. The advantage was impressive. Remember to fight the man, not the weapon, be it a fist, a foot, a knife or a gun. In CQC, the other man, if not trained, can be paused for that fraction of a second by direct eye contact.

Don't count on it, but it's better to know you can win eye-to-eye than to glance away. Try to find a fair way to assess this claim before expecting success.

BRET

[Litlman]

The only time that I have found that looking in to a persons eyes helps in a fight is if you are very familiar with that indevidual and their spefcific behavior. You can tell if they are going to go "off".
With a stranger I don't see how looking at their eyes could help you. My tunnel vision is almost like a dream state. I try to make myself focus on the hands and the torso when I am fighting from the outside. I have also been able to see if any kicks are coming in and react accordingly.



LItlman................

[shy_man]

Edward, we have the same thought that people who won't look you in the eye are not to be trusted.

This was always a saying of our old people in my place. And I believe in that.

What was taught to me that I should not look at the eyes is when you are about to fight with your adversary by gun or knife that you should look at the shoulders because that will tell you if he is going to pull a knife or a gun by his shoulders movement

[Edward429451]

[Spectre]

I've been advised that...ah, never mind. I typically look at the eyebrows of potential adversaries, while keeping a loose "wide view" where I can see any movement made.

[fastbolt]

Obviously, the scriptwriter thought it sounded cool ...

Although ...

The feet, knees, hips, hands, and shoulders will tell you more about the physical actions being contemplated by your opponent ... depending on what sort of social interaction you've gotten yourself involved in ...

Looking someone in the eyes has both allowed me to control and dominate someone ... or set them off ... depending on the situation and what's going through the other person's mind, and especially if there's some chemical or other going through their veins ...

The only time I distinctly remember unexpectedly seeing the eyes was when I suddenly realized I had 3 white dots floating in front of my vision ... my sights ... and then 2 more white dots floating just above them ... my suspect's eyes. That's a lot of white dots to suddenly see when you think you or your partner are about to get shot. The only difference I could see in that split second of time was that the 2 dots that were his eyes had the ability to get larger ...

Don't know what to tell you ...

[Bogie]

Guys, we're primates.

Sorry, creationists, but that's the way it works...

And primates are into dominance. When you walk into a facility with a lot of primates in it, it is advisable that you don't directly look 'em in the eyes. This invites a challenge from 'em. If you don't stare at their eyes, they don't see you as a challenge.

Same with a lot of predatory humans.

[CMichael]

I suggest look at the center of the chest so he have a view of the entire body.

Michael

[fastbolt]

Something else that goes along with Bogie's comments, is that you may have little choice in making "direct" eye contact. Depends on your reason and purpose for being where you are, and interacting with someone in the first place.

If you're dealing with someone, or a small group of several people that are less dominant to a single one among them, you may have little choice but to make and sustain eye contact with the dominant person, and occasional eye contect with the less dominant ones. Sometimes the failure to make eye contact is seen as an admission that YOU are admitting to being less dominant, and you're suddenly prey again ...

Naturally, this isn't anywhere near this simple ... but there are ways to establish a boundary of dominance without being considered overtly aggressive and challenging. Several books written back in the 60's & 70's ... like The Territorial Imperative ... give interesting glimpses into our nature, and the way our societal interactions are still affected by the way we were thousands of years ago ... Okay, and still are in many parts of the world, but we're not supposed to look at it that way, you know?

Just remember these things are ingrained somewhere very deeply inside us ... somewhere back in the lizard brain, as it were ...

And don't be distracted by the eye-contact game, and forget to watch the entire body language. Sometimes the body contact will, indeed, give away a pending physical action that the other person hasn't even realized has already been decided upon by that portion of their primal nature buried within them ... Don't get blind sided ...

If you are into practicing the softly focussed-yet-unfocussed awareness gaze, this is easier to prevent, as you're able to take in their entire body language and eye movement ... But don't expect it happen over night. Not deliberately, anyway ... although your buried nature may bring it out and use it in times of life & death situations ... and without your conscious mind ever being aware of it, or being able to remember what it was that keyed you to the action a second before it occurred.

[LawDog]

Good points about the dominance gained by eye-contact. As an LEO I use eye-contact, illusionary height advantage and other subtle dominance body language every day.

However, it is my firmly-held conviction that once the fur starts to fly, the time to be subtly asserting dominance over the critter has done gone the way of the dodo.

By all means, use eye-contact until such time as the critter whips out a weapon, or attempts to separate you from your head.

Once the shank/gun/bottle/tire iron/punch enters the equation, you have lost the bid for dominance. Attempting to assert your dominance over the critter should be immediately dropped in favour of not getting dead.

But that's just me.

LawDog

[easymoney]

Lawdog...

What is 'illusionary height advantage'?

[LawDog]

Walking heels on a pair of ropers, and a black Stetson.

Also, moving with the person you are talking to so that you are on higher ground than them.

I once chewed out two aggresive juveniles whilst standing on one of those concrete things a the end of a parking space, so that they'd have to look up at me.

LawDog

[C.R.Sam]

Lawdawg makes good points.
Attitude and appearance are your friends.

Blackhawk been there and came home.
If one is in an intense high stress situation and lives through it, one learns to keep track of ALL around while taking care of business. Not something you can get from a book tho, and the school is deadly for failures.

Sam

[Gomez]

This is the best, most cogent, article that I've seen dealing with nonverbal communication and positional dominance.

The following is an article written by Greg Hamilton. Greg is the founder of Insights Training Center (www.insightstraining.com) Make sure and visit their site.

Part One
---------------------------------------
There are four categories of responses to any situation: Fight, Flight,
Freeze, or Communicate. Fight refers to life and death combat fighting not hierarchical I’m bader than you (see posturing.) Flight is just that running away. Freeze is the lack of any action, i.e. the inability to fight, flee, or posture. Lying on the ground, covering your head is not freezing it's communicating. Communication is the assumption of stances, movements, eye contacts, and verbal interactions to cause an effect upon the person you are communicating with.

Communication is manipulation.

We communicate with three postures.

There are three postures that are assumed by people: submissive, assertive, and aggressive. People attract attention because of the first and last. With the first it is obvious that you have no boundaries or you don't enforce your boundaries well. In the case of aggressiveness you are forcing your boundaries upon others. It's pretty obvious that if you have weak boundaries someone will test them. What doesn't seem as obvious is that if you project your boundaries too strongly you will also attract negative attention in the form of a hierarchical conflict. This model could be seen as a scale with
assertive being in the middle or as interlocking rings where each has some overlap with another, and all three overlapping in the center. You could also integrate the Parent-Adult-Child communication model with it. Everyone uses different postures depending as much on whom they are interacting with, as what the interaction is. Contrast your postures in the same situation with the actor changed from child to priest to female to male to homeless to rich.

Since it seem everyone on this list loves to make military analogies. I
would like to define camouflage: that which hides, blends, or deceives. In other words if you don't want to be a target, don't put out target
indicators or be noticed for any reason. Be like everyone else. Be part of the invisible mass. The invisible posture is assertiveness. Assertiveness is only about you, it doesn't compromise anyone else's boundaries or status. It is a live and let live posture. It is also a posture that says, "I don't compromise my boundaries or status. If you invade my boundaries I will be forced/will be glad to respond.” The difference between forced and glad to would depend on your position on the sub to aggress scale. Remember hide, blend, and deceive.

Military Target Indicators are defined as: movement, noise, contrast,
outline, and shine. Being submissive or aggressive is contrasting in daily life to everyone else.

As for eye contact, it will also be interpreted within the same model. If you avoid eye contact, or make short eye contact and then look down, this is submissive. On the other hand if you hold eye contact longer than it takes for the other person to see that you have seen them, that is aggressive. Assertive eye contact is just long enough that everyone knows that everyone knows. If you add in a nod or greeting to another hunter/meat eater and they respond, you have built some rapport and have set a bit of a truce. I.e. I see you, you see me, we are both dangerous, but we don't have a problem with each other. This is a tipping the head up nod, which is a nod of recognition. It can be used across wide distances and close up. Close up add in “how’s it going?” But even in a crowded bar if as you scan the surroundings you see someone looking at you and they don’t immediately look away submissively, add in this head nod, check for response, and then
casually look away to one sides or the other 45-90 degrees while checking that they are doing the same. Don’t keep looking at them and don’t turn your back on them immediately. Turning your back on people you are having a conversation with is considered rude. Wait until both sides have decided the conversations is over before turning your back. If the individual keeps staring you may have a problem. Either leave or find out for sure if you are the problem. They could just be staring into space or they are looking at someone in front of/ behind you. Move off the line of sight forward or backwards and casually follow their eye contact. If it continues: leave, fix the problem, or attempt to avoid it. I’m not big on leaving every time someone makes me uncomfortable (to submissive) On the other hand “Hey buddy, what’s your problem?” is to aggressive and will start a fight were one may have existed. So, either let it play out and see if it goes away (remember
it may just become camouflaged and come back when you’re not ready) or make an assertive contact. I.e. “Excuse me, I don’t know if I’ve done something to offend you, but I’ve got no problem with you.” Hands should be in between question mode and truce mode (elbows at sides, hands 10-12 inches apart, fingers spread, palms moving from facing in, to 45 degrees up, to 45 out, gesturing slightly to show relaxation.)

[Gomez]

This is the second part of the article by Greg Hamilton of Insights Training Center. (www.insightstraining.com)

Part Two
--------------------

When dealing with panhandlers/scavengers it is best to deny their existence, while letting them know that you know they are there. If you make eye contact with this type it is the introduction and the start of a relationship, and now you will have to talk to them. You are not being submissive with your lack of eye contact, you are being assertive. Once positive contact is made on their part, then face your head towards them and respond with a simple non-aggressive "no thank you" and keep moving during the exchange. I.e. get out of the kill zone. If they continue respond with a louder "NO" or “I said NO” but keep moving. Each verbal should be accompanied with consistent body language i.e. boundary setting position with a hand (palm out, arm half extended at shoulder level) No pointing, it's aggressive and as our mothers told us it’s rude. If the person gets too close, you will be forced to stop and fully face them. Keep your one hand in boundary setting position and sweep your clothing aside a inch or two with
your strong hand (concealing your palm) say loudly "I said NO, leave me
alone!" if they try to speak, cut them off at the first word with "NO, leave me alone!" The reason we escalate to loud after the first interaction is we want to put a spotlight on them, because cockroaches don't like the light. If everyone is looking at them they will usually back down. Always create more distance every time you can and disengage and leave at first opportunity, but do so assertively. Remember this model is for bums, not hunters. Adjust your volume to the situation, but as a generalization most of us are not load enough. Nothing stops people in their tracks fast than a verbal command so loud in reverberates in their skull. Many times commands should be given so forcefully that the assailant unconsciously stops before they have even processed the information consciously.

If you challenge a hunter/meateater and put the spotlight on him, you may force him to fight to "save face" as his buddies are watching, or you will give him the final justification to fight "that ******* was dissin me". If you are dealing with a hunter you can start the same, but don't yell, just speak firmly. Don't sweep the jacket fast, just do it casually. Give him an out. Meaning he won't just leave you alone because you told him to, he must leave this engagement without his status being lowered. He will need to verbally interact with you a few times so he can show himself and everyone else he wasn't scared, and could have took you if he wanted to. You and he will know the truth and that's all that matters. Remember keep moving! The military calls it Find ‘em, Fix ‘em, Finish ‘em. Don’t get fixed and you probably won’t get finished. It is hard to engage a target that won’t stop to be engaged.

----------------

[Gomez]

And, finally, the next to last part of the article by Greg Hamilton of Insights Training Center
(www.insightstraining.com)

Part Three
-----------------------
If you have to stop at a minimum turn the entire engagement 90 degrees from how it started. This upset the lay off the kill zone and will allow you to check your back and expose the contact mans partners. This simple maneuver can dislocate them enough to create a few seconds to further disengage until you have compromised their initial plan so much they would have to run to re-deploy and initiate on you. I prefer to turn the engagement so that my back is two the street, this allows for more maneuvering room for disengagement or fleeing. If you turn it so your back is against the wall and you don’t continue to move quickly, your opponents will re-deploy and use the wall as a fixing element. They will envelop your position cutting of routes of escape except for a direct break through, which requires deception, great speed, and audacity to pull off.

The Hunter must leave this engagement without his status being lowered on the food chain. Professional victimizers cannot risk being injured. It takes away from their productivity and makes them potential victims. Pain or jail time is not half as bad as injury, as neither lowers their status (in fact jail time may increase their status.) This doesn’t mean they want to go to jail, but they are afraid of it less than they are of injury or death. They don’t select victims by saying “Oh look that guy/women will give me a good fight.” Along with that if he puts up with “a dissin” and doesn’t do anything about it his status will be lowered among his associates. He has worked long and hard to establish himself and will not give that status up without a fight. Remember hyenas travel in packs, this is almost for sure not a lone contact.

By saying "leave me alone" as opposed to "get out of here" you are
reinforcing the fact that you do not wish to impose on others, you just
don't want to be imposed upon. Assertiveness not aggressiveness. You could also use something like “Get away from ME.” As this includes YOU and YOUR boundaries as the central issue. Saying “Get out of here” is the same form a boundary issue as saying “Get a job/haircut/life.” Try something like that on the street and see how long you stay standing.

With hunters you may have to explain yourself more. Follow the model given for harassers and nonviolent rapists/victimizers.

Aggressiveness and submissiveness both have a tactical niche and are
important postures, but assertiveness is the default posture.

The only times I've attracted attention was when unaware (it looks
submissive) and upon initial contact I've corrected the hunters opinion of me immediately. The other time you will attract attention is if you are too “copish” but this attention will rarely cause you problems and will usually result in you having fewer problems. More than once a hunter has approached me on the street and said something like “excuse me officer, do you have the time?” all the time having a big grin on their face because they thought they “made me.” I never correct that error, because now he and all his buddies will leave you and your party alone. Not many criminals want to purposefully cause trouble with a cop.

The group that you will have the most problems with are the young bucks who haven't mastered the victim selection process yet, and who are courtesy of deadly testosterone build up, still trying to build a rep. Avoidance first. Then assertiveness and patience next. Let them vent while holding you boundaries. Calmly and confidently explain your position and continue to repeat it. Be careful not to get emotionally involved and make the mistake of going to aggressive. You will then say or do something offensive and BOOM you've got a fight. Be to stupid with your remarks and you may have a fight with a lot of people. Remember disengage, disengage, disengage. Even a foot or two at a time will create distance and eventually you can end the conversation and walk away.

A comment on walking away or passing people. Take a look at wild kingdom and compare how a lion glances over his shoulder to see what’s behind him in comparison to a gazelle. The grasseater will throw his head around two or three times rapidly as opposed to the one calm glance of the meateater. If you don’t want to be mistaken for food don’t look like it. There’s nothing like rapid darting glances over your shoulder to scream “foods on, come and get it.”

More on rapport. It is important to build rapport with hunters, because it not only identifies you as one, but it puts you in the category of hunter that is mature and respectful of others. As opposed to the young, dumb ones trying to move up the food chain. It is probably to late to build this type of rapport if the other person is actively hunting and has picked you for a potential victim or you’ve walked into his/their kill zone. In this case you might have to assume more of, I’m a hunter too, and I’m more than ready to fight attitude. A bit more towards the aggressive side of assertiveness. Get out of the area of operation before they have a chance to process all of this. In military jargon this is call dislocating the enemies combat power, and if by the unexpected you can keep them dislocated for a few seconds you will be out of the primary kill zone and you will force them to re-deploy to
engage you. Since you were a target of opportunity as opposed to a specific target it is probably not worth the time and effort to re-deploy on someone that is ready to fight, when you can just wait for the next food truck to come unaware down the road.

For harassers and nonviolent victimizers the first step is to SET THE
BOUNDARY/IDENTIFY THE OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOR. “Don’t touch me like that, I don’t like being touched like that”, “You are in my personal space, don’t stand so close to me”, “That was offensive, don’t talk to me like that, I don’t like that kind of talk”. This is the WHAT and WHY stage, now you must immediately follow with the WHO AM I/WHAT AUTHORITY DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU stage. America is the land of Why? Who the hell are you to tell me? And by what authority do you command me? If you can answer these questions before the victimizer has a chance to talk, there will be nothing left for them to argue about. It is best to backstop your authority with society at large; this gives you the
authority of everyone, with everyone on your side. I.e. “No one likes being touched like that”, “No one likes having people that close to them”, “No one likes being spoken to that way”.

[Gomez]

Ans now, the last piece of Greg Hamilton's article. www.insightstraining.com

Part Four

____________

At this point you can continue to be very firm (don’t get aggressive) or you can give the person an out by saying something like “I know you didn’t mean to be offensive, but you were. Don’t ever do it to me again.” Make sure to include the last part of “Don’t ever do it to me again.” As you want it very clear you will not now, or ever compromise your boundaries.

The response you get will tell you a lot about the type of victimizer you are dealing with. They will respond with one of the three options:
submissive, assertive, or aggressive. If the person responds with an
assertive “I’m sorry, I apologize, I was wrong” they probably are, and it was an honest mistake based on temporary stupidity (many times caused by intoxication) or lack of social/etiquette knowledge. Watch them for future mistakes but they are most likely not a problem.

This is the way YOU should respond if YOU make an etiquette error “Are you dating her? I didn’t know that. I’m sorry, MY mistake. I was wrong, it won’t happen again.” Very few people will continue to be aggressive after you have admitted all wrong doing, apologized, and said it will never happen again (of course this assumes you were only talking to her, not caught in bed with her. This will only work for small errors.) On the first line you can insert anything “I didn’t know this seat/table/parking spot was yours”, “I didn’t know I cut in front of you”, etc.
If the victimizer responds with a mealy mouthed/submissiveness “I’m sooo sorry, blah, blah, blah” while continuing to try to get close, you have a real victimizer/scavenger concealed as a grasseater on your hands. Watch body language on this, it will tell all. You will commonly see anger in their eyes, but they will try to conceal it with submissive posturing. This person works on compromising one little boundary at a time, and trying to gain trust. The principle being like throwing one passenger from the sleigh at a time to the wolves, it doesn’t seem like such a big deal each time a single person gets sacrificed, but in the end you still all end up dead. These scavengers make their living turning trust into guilt, and guilt into victimization.

The aggressive victimizer will respond with an attack on you “You
*******/bitch you’re just uptight (something is wrong with you). I was just having fun, etc.” They will attack you and your boundary and continue to justify themselves. It will be all your fault. Hold your ground. Tell them you don’t care what they think of you or what their justification for their action is, just never do it again. Remember don’t get aggressive. That will be hard with this type of person, because they are experts at manipulating you to get angry and say something offensive to THEM, so they can then have proof that the whole thing was your fault. This person could become violent in a date rape type situation, in a work situation the risk of job loss/legal problems will usually prevent violence. With the date raper you must be careful while matching and leading them to prevent escalation. The situation will be highly volatile, so be very ready for violence, break contact safely and assertively (and never see them again.)

Just like weapons usage, if you don't do dry and live practice you probably will have a hard time doing it for real. Dry practice verbal interactions in your head, out load when alone, and with a role-playing partner. If you don't role-play very well, script the thing out and read the parts to each other until you are comfortable with them. Then add-lib scenarios until you can handle unexpected changes. You can't just decide to be assertive in a confrontation, you must make it the way you live all the time.

For live practice go to a busy part of town that has lots of good people around but has population of street people/bums working the area. Make sure it’s a nice day with lots of normal people around. Take a few friends who will stand off and not be noticed. Let yourself be approached and interact properly. If you can record the interactions with a tape recorder or have your friends have a video recorder (of course this will make it harder for them not to be noticed.) You can use this later to critique yourself and to have more scripts to practice with. It shouldn’t be too hard to pick a route that will allow you and your friends a dozen repetitions in an hour or two.
Have a covert signal worked out with your friends so they can approach and walk you out of the conversation if you get at all uncomfortable.

Happiness is being high on the food chain.

---------------------------------------

[LASur5r]

What if he's wearing dark glasses or the BG is coming at you in the dark? So now what about his eyes?

Many moons ago, we learned that if you looked at his eyes, you could get mesmerized but more often it delayed your reaction time because you didn't see the kick , the punch, the knife, the club, the kitchen sink, etc...

Worked for me.....