Lee loadmaster 30.06 full length resizing problem

[skyhawk72]

Hi guys. I just picked up a loadmaster 30.06, and I'm having issues getting it to headspace the brass correctly. I started out using the lee dies but ran out of ram travel before I could get the brass below the max line on my headspace gauge. ( I ran about 50 pcs with 10 gauging good) My buddy is also reloading 30.06 and uses rcbs dies and has great luck, so I went to the store. They only had small base but I went ahead and bought them to try. I ran 11 pieces and 7 are good, but the other 4 are just over the max line. I'm really afraid the press isn't up to the job. I've followed factory set up instructions for both initial die set ups. The 30.06 brass is hxp of various years and it is for the m1 garand. I did try cycling the brass in both my garands and the bolt closed fine. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[KEYBEAR]

I think you know the problem ? ( hope it was cheap)

For big Rifle reloading very little beats a single stage press .
I at one time loaded a lot of 308 and 30-06 (with a single stage) and never had a problem

[skyhawk72]

Luckily, it has a 30 day return guarantee. At this point Im really thinking about returning it. Im just confused at how they arent sizing correctly when my shell plate at die are touching with no light showing through. Its really confusing that some come out good, and others not.

[Bart B.]

Does the sizing die's bottom touch the shell holder when it's sizing a case?

I don't think it is and that's why your case headspace is too long and its head sticks out past the gauge limit.

Small base dies only make the case body diameter smaller; typically don't set fire case shoulders back any further than standard dies.

[skyhawk72]

When the shell holder is all the way up, with a case in, the shell plate and the bottom of the die are touching and there is no light showing through. My friend who is running a turret has his dies set the same way and isnt having an issue. Im just really confused!
Thanks
Will

[skyhawk72]

I have also noticed that if its pre-1970 hxp brass it resizes 100% of the time. After 1970 and up doesnt size so reliably. The ironic thing is my friend and I bought our hxp up at cmp north store at the exact same time. I believe they are even the same lot numbers. Im really wondering if the turret itself is flexing and not putting the force into the case. This happened on both the lee dies and the rcbs.
Thanks
Will

[Unclenick]

Skyhawk,

Your experience is not uncommon for brass that was fired in an as-issued Garand chamber (match chambers don't do it). I've had it happen even using my Forster Co-ax press.

The Garand as-issued chambers are often long and wide at the breech, so when you size the brass, the required additional narrowing lengthens the case enough that when the die shoulder sets it back, moving that much hard mil spec brass around seems to create some extra springiness. It's the same problem people buying once-fired brass can run into, especially if it was fired in a machine gun originally. It just won't size down to spec on the first pass through a standard die, so they get a small base die, fire it once in a commercial chamber, then don't have the problem using a standard sizing die afterward.

I've also brought brass down and additional couple of thousandths by running it through sizing a second or third time. If your Loadmaster's linkages allow, you can run the brass up into the die, then hold it up in there for a count of few seconds to relax, withdraw it just enough to get your fingers around the base, turn it 180° in the shell holder, then run it back up into the die again, and give it a few more seconds. It will often come out a little shorter.

But here's the important question: was this brass fired in your chamber originally? If so, even though it doesn't meet SAAMI specs, it is probably shorter than it was before you resized it by at least several thousandths. You only need it shorter by about -0.002" from its ejected length to feed reliably. In fact, sizing it more than that is pretty much just overworking the brass and shortening case reloading life and making you need to trim more frequently. Sizing it to make the case gauge happy is only important if you want to be able to fire it in other guns, some of which have SAAMI minimum length chambers.

To see if you are shortening the cases enough, you need a case comparator to see how long the case was before you resized it, and how long it is afterward. You can buy a commercial comparator adapter for your calipers to let you see this length difference (the difference is all you care about; not the absolute numbers). That's convenient because it has a base with a set screw that retains it on the caliper. But you can also improvise with a 3/8" diameter spacer or bushing journal, as shown below. It's a little clumsier to juggle two loose parts at once in your caliper, but if you only need to verify this enough to get your press set up and are then going to leave it alone, it's good enough. Just take several before and after readings to average and verify the results.



(NOTE: That particular spacer is actually rather bigger than 3/8" ID. It's about 0.409" ID. I'd recommend something closer to actual 3.8" (0.375") for the .30-06 brass because of its slightly narrower shoulder. I 3/8" ID bronze bushing journal is a good choice if you have a hardware that still carries them.)

Finally, if you feel you do need to size brass down all the way, you can get the mouth of the Lee die ground shorter. They aren't expensive to replace, so it's not an unreasonable thing to do.

[skyhawk72]

Thanks so much! I do have two garands and I know that the brass came out of one or the other. I tried cycling it in both and had no issues. Should I be ok?
Thanks again!

[Bart B.]

Check out post #35 in the following:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=544432&page=2

[chris in va]

I may be out of my league here, but the instructions call for some 'cam-over' when setting up the resizing die. Screw it down until it touches the shell holder, then screw it in another 1/2 turn or so. Using this method with my Hand Press, all my reloads chamber and fire fine in my Garand.

The press won't close all the way, about 3/8" until the little ear touches the opposing stop.

[condor bravo]

A mis-match between the dimensions of a rifle's chamber and a sizing die can prevent the die from contacting and bumping back the shoulder when needed, and this is what is happening with some of your combinations. The sizing die of course needs to be screwed down farther. There is a simple solution and that is to grind or file off some metal from the mouth of the die after removing the priming stem. Of course some would consider that as ruining the die and would never think about doing such a thing. Out of fifty-some rifle dies, I have done that to a half-dozen. With a small grinding wheel attached to an electric drill, the job takes a minute or so. With a file, a little longer. But doing 06 work you ideally should be using a solid single stage press.

[Unclenick]

Chris,

You are describing turning a die in deeper to create a press stretching allowance. Camming over is pushing a press handle until it moves the ram past the top dead center of the camming action of the linkage to begin descending again on the far side of the stroke. None of the Lee presses will cam over as they are designed to prevent being able to move the handle far enough for it to happen. That's because the theoretical mechanical advantage during camming over approaches infinity as the cam reaches the point where it ceases to rise. That makes overstretching the press easy, and some presses have been damaged by that.


Skyhawk72,

If it chambers it is likely OK, but the Garand mechanism is complicated by the fact hesitations in feed can cause the free-floating firing pin to bounce against the primer creating a small but real potential for dangerous out of battery ignition. So it is best, if you have any more fired brass, to make the comparison just to be sure the case shoulders have been set back enough. It's a case of a single measurement being worth a thousand guesstimates.

[skyhawk72]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I tried setting the shoulder back and I cannot get it to move at all following the suggestions with the nylon bushing. I called rcbs and the gentleman told me what I thought may be happening that I'm bottoming out before really sizing. I'm seriously considering returning the press and getting a single stage or turret as I will be mostly loading for the garand. What do you guys think?

[condor bravo]

I wouldn't bother returning the press; it is probably able to do only what it is intended to do--mostly load handgun ammunition. Get a single stage press, perhaps there could be a difference between shellplate/shell holder height, and if the problem still exists, grind or file off a portion of the sizing die that you want to use. The sizing die is most likely the culprit and it is certainly no big deal to remove a small amount from the mouth of the die. Or buy another sizing die and see if that will do the job. I load for three Garands with absolutely no problems; all loads are interchangeable using the same die. But for the Garand you might want to consider getting and using a Redding primer pocket depth uniformer available from MidwayUSA. Its intention is to ream primer pockets, if necessary, to their optimum depth, thereby reducing the chances of slam fires as the bolt closes on a new round. Then it is great as a primer pocket cleaner attached to an electric drill.

[skyhawk72]

The only problem is that I only had money for one press. So I'll have to return it to get another. What makes me upset is that I actually bought this as a 30.06 loadmaster kit from lee so I would have thought it would have been good to go.

[condor bravo]

That being the case, try returning it or trading towards another press if a suitable one is available from the same source. It's my belief that progressives are not durable enough for reloading rifle rounds other than the lighter calibers. But my money lies on the sizing die being at fault. Have you tried your friend's RCBS die or done anything else to possibly eliminate the sizing die as the source of the problem (which I assume is still the inability to set back the case shoulder)?

[skyhawk72]

I bought a set of rcbs dies to try. They are small base but that's all I could find locally and the results were the same. Tomorrow my buddy is taking my lee dies and rcbs dies and trying to size my brass on his press. I have a feeling it will work. If that's the case I'm pretty sure I'll have to return it and look for another press. Thanks again for all the help!

[condor bravo]

Good; kindly post the results. Sometimes we like to find out if our self-anointed suggestions or guesses have been correct. If your Lee die works, as well as the friend's RCBS die with your brass (sets the shoulder back) in the friend's press, then we can probably conclude that the fault lies somewhere with the Lee press. But to completely eliminate the die as a possible contributing cause, also try the RCBS die in the Lee press. If it works, then the Lee die is at fault and a replacement sizing die could cure the situation (provided you are comfortable with keeping the Lee press) or grind or file off some from the mouth of the Lee die.

[skyhawk72]

I will definitely post what we find. I tried both the lee die and the rcbs in my press with the same results. I'm sending both sets with him today and I'm anxious to see what happens.

[skyhawk72]

Just wanted to let everyone know what we found. He used my dies and brass and was completely successful on resizing. Unfortunately it's the press. Thanks for everyone's help.

[condor bravo]

Right on and thanks for the reply. Good luck on getting another press.

The only possible problem with the press that I can come up with is that the thickness of the shellplate may be excessive, thereby not allowing the sizing die to descend enough before contacting the shellplate.

[skyhawk72]

Thanks. I ended up buying what my buddy used a lee turret, except I bought the classic. I ran some brass on it late last night with 100% success.

[30Cal]

Sorry to chime in late... Not sure why the press would be the culprit--I have a hard time seeing it flex that much. Now it could have been the shellholder.


The other potential cause was that or your technique is different than your buddy's. If your cases are squeeling and dragging on the way out of the die, you are now pulling the shoulder FORWARD--lube issue.

[skyhawk72]

No problem. I wasn't getting any squealing or anything. I actually hooked up the turret and follwed the same set us and I did on the loadmaster and the are sizing perfect.