45 Colt/454 Casull Dies

[1972RedNeck]

Need a set of dies for my Hornady press for 45 Colt and 454 Casull. Is there a set that can do both? How about 45 ACP as well?

[Schlitz 45]

I have separate dies for each of those calibers but I’m pretty sure you can load both 45 Colt or 454 Casull with either set. I believe 45 ACP could possibly be loaded too but needs a different shell holder. Never tried it.

[44 AMP]

Going by the case drawings in my Hornady book, the .454 Casull is .478" at the mouth and is straight back to .478" at the head.

The .45 Colt is .480" at the mouth and also straight to the head.

The .45 ACP is .473" at the mouth, tapering to .476" at the head.

Given that the dimensions are assumed to be max spec and that sizer dies are smaller (often sizing slightly under min spec) you probably could load .454 in .45 Colt dies, adjusted for the longer case body. But you probably couldn't crimp .45 Colt in the .454 Seater die.

.45acp brass is too small a diameter to be properly sized in either .45 Colt or .454 Casull sizer dies. A min spec .45 Colt or Casull sizer MIGHT size an ACP case enough to grip a bullet, but it won't be something you can count on, and the ACP is too short to reach the roll crimp in the seater die, and should be taper crimped anyway, so either way you'd need a different crimp die than the one in a .Colt or Casull die set.

use ACP dies for the ACP case, .45 Colt dies for the .45 Colt and Casull (adjusting for the difference in length), though having dedicated dies for each different round is best.

[Paul B.]

I believe you can use a set of .45 Colt to load the Casull. I do something similat with the .38 Spl./.357 magnum and .44 Spl./.44 Magnum rounds. I simply use a set of spacers that go between the dies and the press. RCBS sells such spacers for the 38/357 and 44/44Mag but I don't know about the .45LC/454 Cas.

FWIW, long before RCBS made those spacers, I mad my own out some washers. I did it originally for the .38.357 and when the .44 mag came out it did for those as well. Anyway, it's something you can look at. I don't think you can add the .45 ACP though. Two out of three ain't bad though.
Paul B.

[44 AMP]

I've gotten RCBS die sets with the spacer washer included. Don't know if they still do that, or not. Same caliber die sets aren't something I buy very often.

The process is simple, adjust your dies for the shorter round, then use a washer spacer the thickness of the difference in length between the shorter and longer cases. This will work for straight cases of the same (or very close) diameter but different lengths. Uniform case lengths matter, too.

Won't let you do .45ACP in .45 Colt dies though. Its tapered and too much smaller in diameter.

[Unclenick]

Yes, 45 Auto is its own animal. You can do 45 GAP with a 45 Auto sizing die as long as you are running jacketed bullets and don't need a crimp for it. 45 Win Mag dies can size all three, but if you want a single taper crimp that can be adjusted for all three, it will need to be one designed for 45 GAP that you can back out as needed for the other two, assuming you have enough die body thread to back it out enough for the 45 Win Mag.

The 454 Casull and the 460 S&W SAAMI drawings show the case diameters as 0.4775" and 0.478", respectively, so the same sizer would clearly work well enough for both, and the 454 crimping die would work for both. The 45 Colt is 0.480", as previously mentioned. That 0.002"-0.0025" diameter difference could affect bullet pull for some cases using some dies and some bullets. The SAAMI numbers call for bullets from 0.4495"-0.4525" for all three cartridges, so you would assume a 45 Colt sizer would get enough sizing onto the Casull to handle 0.451" and 0.452" bullets OK, but it could depend on the dies. RCBS told me they hold diameters to within 0.002", so if the whole industry follows that standard, it is conceivable a loose 45 Colt die might not get the Casull cases small enough. If you have thinner brass or smaller bullets, issues could arise, too.

In your shoes, I would get the 45 Colt dies and try them on the Casull brass. If the case diameter measurement averaged all around is a couple of thousandths smaller coming out of the resizing operation than when you measure over the top of a seated bullet, you should be good to go. But if you get weak bullet hold in the Casull brass (trouble with bullets backing out during firing and jamming cylinder rotation), you can always buy just the Casull resizing die afterward from Lee or another vendor at less cost than a whole die set, and still, be OK with the expander and seater from the 45 Colt set.

[44 AMP]

When the tolerances are close enough, there are several combinations of dies and cases in different calibers that will work well enough to make ammo that "goes bang". If that's all you're looking for, go for it.

The point to the .454 is high performance. To get that, you need best quality ammo. Considering the cost overall, and the fact that good dies are, essentially a one time purchase, why "cheap out"??

.45 Colt dies will make shootable .454 ammo but may not be able to make the best .454 ammo if stacking tolerances happen to line up against that.

[1972RedNeck]

So do I need a whole set of dies for the 454 to be "right" or is there just a single die I need add to my Hornady 546582 3 piece set for 45 Colt?

[Unclenick]

Because we don't have your dies in our hands, we can't give you a certain answer. The sizes are close, but not exactly the same, so you have to test to see if what you have has enough overlap to need no additional dies. Try sizing a 454 Casull case in the 45 Colt sizing die to see if you run into a problem. Use your caliper to measure the outside of the resized case about an eighth of an inch or so below the case mouth. Resizing often leaves cases slightly oval in cross-section, so measure it, turn it about an eighth of a turn and measure again, and keep repeating until you have four measurements. Add them up and divide by four to find the average value. Next, seat a jacketed bullet into it. Repeat the measurement. The bullet will have expanded the case a little. Repeat the measurements and get the new average. If it is at least 0.001"-0.002" bigger than the first average, I don't think you need any other dies. But if it is less than 0.001" bigger, the bullet fit is likely too loose and you will want a 454 Casull sizing die added to your collection.

The expander die should be identical for both rounds because the use the same diameter bullets.

The 45 Colt seating and crimping die can be made to work for both by backing it out far enough to work with the longer 454 Casull case. The only exception would be if the crimp proves too loose on the slightly thinner case (bullets backing out during firing), in which case you may want something like the Redding Profile Crimp die for it.

Only trying is going to tell you these things. There is a good chance you don't need anything else, but you have to prove that to yourself.

[44 AMP]

The only exception would be if the crimp proves too loose on the slightly thinner case (bullets backing out during firing), in which case you may want something like the Redding Profile Crimp die for it.

I would add this, if the crimp is too loose, before going to another die, ADJUST the one you're using to increase the amount of crimp. IF you run out of adjustment and the crimp is still too loose, THEN go get another die...

[mkl]

I guess I'm just an old fart, but I use steel dies for all 13 calibers I reload. If you look at the SAMMI drawings, 99 percent of the "straight wall" cases are tapered. About 1 percent really are straight wall. Carbide dies will resize the case to only one dimension and that is not a taper.

Yes, steel dies require a little lube, but how much trouble is that compared to feed problems and short case life of tapered cases run through a carbide [non tapered] die?

IMHO a steel die for the cartridge you want to reload will save you a ton of frustration trying to get "everything" to work with dies not specifically designed for your cartridge.

[Unclenick]

Redding had its two-ring sizers to address that issue better, but they seem to have been discontinued. They were quite pricey, and I expect that doomed them.

[rclark]

but how much trouble is that compared to feed problems and short case life of tapered cases run through a carbide [non tapered] die?

Well, in my experience, no trouble at all . Feed just fine, shoot just fine and very good case life. Carbide dies rule when they can be be used .

My druthers, is to just buy a separate die set for each caliber that you load. Not that expensive and last a life time (if maintained of course). I even do this for .44 Special and .44 Magnum so I don't have to adjust the die set even though one set would do.

[44 AMP]

All "carbide" dies are not identical, and there are carbide dies made for tapered cases. There are even carbide dies made for bottlenecked rifle cases.

The rifle dies are very expensive and rarely seen in the hands of hobby reloaders, but you can get them and use them if you spend the $. Very few people will. Used to be Dillon offered carbide dies in .223 and .308. Cost was about 5x the cost of a carbide pistol die set for the rifle sizer die alone. This was back in the 80s-90s, don't know if they still do, or not, or what today's prices would be.

Point is, ALL carbide dies are NOT the "straight ring" type. The ones for straight cases are, the ones for tapered or even bottlenecked cases, aren't.

[mkl]

Point is, ALL carbide dies are NOT the "straight ring" type. The ones for straight cases are, the ones for tapered or even bottlenecked cases, aren't.

_

You are absolutely correct. I did not want to confuse the newer reloaders by telling them there are $25,000 carbide dies available. The commercial ammo loaders of the world use carbide dies. Remington, Nosler, Winchester, and not to be forgotten those companies supplying millions of rounds to our military.

Should you desire a tampered carbide die and have the money available they are obtainable. [Better than unobtainum, and space trip not required ]

If you can find a tapered carbide die made with all carbide (as opposed to a couple of carbide rings) for less than a few thousand dollars, let me know.

[AL45]

As I recall, I had trouble with some .454 loads jumping crimp when using .45 colt dies so I bought 454 dies and had no problems. But I have only fired about 5 rounds with each type of die, so not enough testing to prove anything.

[mkl]

[QUOTE]

As I recall, I had trouble with some .454 loads jumping crimp when using .45 colt dies so I bought 454 dies and had no problems. But I have only fired about 5 rounds with each type of die, so not enough testing to prove anything.

[QUOTE]

Yes, I too have a Bowen 5-shot "hand cannon" in 45 Colt that jumped the crimp the first time I shot it. You will have to put a hard serious crimp on your loads with that kind of recoil or will empty the other two or three cylinders iof powder in your chambers -- been there; done that; and aint got no t-shirt!!!!!

[44 AMP]

While I've never had any .454 dies, my .45 Colt dies, and all the other roll crimp dies I've got in other calibers have enough "adjustment" possible they can literally crush or buckle the case.

The .454 case is nominally a couple thousandths smaller in diameter than the .45 Colt, but its only a small amount and I think the .45 Colt steater die's crimp shoulder could do an adequate job, when adjusted as needed.

PROBABLY what happened when you had .454 bullets jump crimp wasn't because it was a .45 Colt die, but more likely because you just didn't get the adjustment correct for the heavier recoiling Casull rounds. I say probably because I think it would work but have never tested it, and even if I could, my test wouldn't mean your equipment would work.

Its best to have separate dedicated dies for the different rounds. For one thing, you don't need to adjust things all over again each time you change from .45 to .454 and back. You just changed the dies you've already set up.

Overall, the cost of a die set is piddly, compared to a lifetime's service, and having separate sets saves effort and often aggravation and prevents ruined rounds if you make the mistake of long case in short case adjusted die.

Of course we'd never do that, but...Murphy would, and around my place, he never seems to take a day off....

[RoyceP]

I've always loaded .451" 45 ACP bullets. Then use a taper crimp die.

45 Colt is much different. The bullets are sized to .454" and it uses a roll crimp because the cartridge rests the rim against the cylinder to achieve headspace.

The 454 Casull is the same and I think you would use dedicated dies in order to full length size each case. I don't have one but if I did the dies would be in that caliber for that reason.

[Unclenick]

RoyceP,

You must have an old cylinder if the throats are sized for 0.454" bullets. Some of the modern ones made after the complete changeover to 0.451" wouldn't let you chamber those.


AL45,

Assuming the Casull cases average 0.002" thinner at the necks, when you apply a heavy crimp, the sharp turn of the brass into the crimp can apply enough force to that bending point that the brass below the crimp actually lifts away from the sides of the bullet, lessening the portion of bullet pull due to friction below the crimp. That could account for the effect you saw. The reason I mentioned the Redding Profile Crimp die earlier is that it has a funny hybrid crimp profile that starts out as a taper crimp but terminates in a roll crimp. This causes the taper to be pressing against the sides of the case when the roll crimp shoulder starts to turn inward, thus eliminating the tendency to have the brass pull away from the sides of the bullet below the crimp and ensuring your crimp is solid. The problem is, I don't know the diameter the taper ends at in the 45 Colt and 454 Casull versions or if there could still be a gap with a Casull case when the roll crimp starts. I doubt it, but it is possible, and I would call Redding and ask before buying one for either chambering. Probably not needed for the 45 Colt if you aren't hot-rodding it.

[44 AMP]

the sharp turn of the brass into the crimp can apply enough force ..

I'd say possible, so can, not "will", and I think its something that would depend on the dies and brass involved.

I'm well aware of the results of "overcrimping" and the bulged (even buckled) brass that can result, but I wonder, if, specific to the matter of crimping the slightly smaller diameter .454 it will be enough to do that.

I'd guess it would be a trial and error thing with the brass and dies you have in order to find out. Like the needed amount of crimp. A setting that works with one load level might not be enough to hold at a higher recoil level, but the only way to know how much is enough is to shoot and see the results.

[Unclenick]

Yes. It will be a matter of trying. I would not expect a problem crimping into the conventional cannelure in a jacketed bullet. It's going to be more likely on a cast bullet with a deep crimp groove, like the Keith designs, where your bend is more pronounced and the mouth is being formed to a smaller diameter, backing the brass up a bit.

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

RoyceP,

You must have an old cylinder if the throats are sized for 0.454" bullets. Some of the modern ones made after the complete changeover to 0.451" wouldn't let you chamber those.


AL45,

Assuming the Casull cases average 0.002" thinner at the necks, when you apply a heavy crimp, the sharp turn of the brass into the crimp can apply enough force to that bending point that the brass below the crimp actually lifts away from the sides of the bullet, lessening the portion of bullet pull due to friction below the crimp. That could account for the effect you saw. The reason I mentioned the Redding Profile Crimp die earlier is that it has a funny hybrid crimp profile that starts out as a taper crimp but terminates in a roll crimp. This causes the taper to be pressing against the sides of the case when the roll crimp shoulder starts to turn inward, thus eliminating the tendency to have the brass pull away from the sides of the bullet below the crimp and ensuring your crimp is solid. The problem is, I don't know the diameter the taper ends at in the 45 Colt and 454 Casull versions or if there could still be a gap with a Casull case when the roll crimp starts. I doubt it, but it is possible, and I would call Redding and ask before buying one for either chambering. Probably not needed for the 45 Colt if you aren't hot-rodding it.

All of my revolvers were made prior to SAAMI changing the specs for 45 Colt bullets, chambers and rifling in the 1990's. If you consider that to be "old" then so be it. I accept it as reality.

[Unclenick]

Colt changed the rifling groove diameter to 0.451" well before that. Mike Venturino says he's seen a 1922 Colt factory specification sheet showing the smaller diameter. It suggests that when they started making 1911s for the government, they decided they didn't want to maintain gun drills and reamers and rifling cutters for both sizes. But revolver chamber throats took a lot longer to change. At first, they would just be avoiding obsoleting old ammunition. Later, maybe they were keeping old bullet molds alive. I don't know. I actually can't find any hard dates for the cylinder throats mentioned anywhere, so my comment may have been misplaced. I know Ruger doesn't undersize throats, but I don't really know when other makers may have given the practice up.

[44 AMP]

There are lots of stories, some verifiable, some not so much.

Gun lore that I've heard says the shift down from .454 to the smaller .451-.452" bore size in the SAA was done to enhance the accuracy when shooting .45acp bullets, and as the lead .45 Colt bullets "squeezed down" just fine, the slightly smaller bore size was not an issue. Also makes sense from an economic /tooling issue as well. Making one common bore diameter for all your .45 barrels does make sense.

IF that was the case, not changing the throat size right away also makes sense, as well. .45acp ball ammo doesn't upset much in the chamber throat, and in that era that was the common ACP bullet. After WWII, with the increase in handloading and use of lead bullets in .45acp, chamber throats were (I think) better matched to the ACP bore size. Of course, none of this happened overnight...it was a gradual change by the industry some makers stuck with the .454" size for quite a while, I think some might still. SAAMI didn't formalize the change until many, many years later. (as far as I know)

I've also heard that the SAA tooling was stored outside on a loading dock in the years after Colt ended production. After WWII Colt had, initially no plans to bring back the SAA, and besides the tooling was "very worn/worn out" already. And it wasn't until popularity of "westerns" rose post war and foreign copies of the Single Action, and then Ruger selling an SA revolver convinced Colt mgt. that it was worth it to resume SAA production.

or so the story goes.