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Old November 30, 2017, 09:27 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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NYPD and no more revolvers

I had to close down a previous thread on police revolvers due to an individual acting poorly. However, the issue is still of interest. Thus here's an action by NYPD:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ast-revolvers/

The wheel gun is out.
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Old November 30, 2017, 10:06 AM   #2
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Kind of sad actually. A good revolver especially in the hands of new recruits or non-shooters has many benefits over semi-autos.
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Old November 30, 2017, 12:01 PM   #3
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Trading blued steel and walnut for tactical plastic. Like trading Raquel Welch in her prime for Miley Cyrus. Or Prime Rib for a Veggie Burger. UGgg! I wonder how many of the retired NYPD officers are still packing six shooters?

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Old November 30, 2017, 12:34 PM   #4
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With no disrespect to those who carry revolvers, I am surprised that NYC PD hasn't made the change long before now. A sworn officer carrying a revolver in today's world makes no sense to me. While I am still a fan of "blued steel and walnut" a revolver in any role other than a backup for a cop, especially in an urban environment, is an anachronism in my opinion.
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Old November 30, 2017, 01:10 PM   #5
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All of it is about budgets and very little to do with anything else. NYPD's weapons techs would no longer have or be able to get parts for revolvers. No money for that.
"...in the hands of new recruits..." Nope. It's easier to train a complete neophyte(that most recruits are) to shoot a pistol well than it is a revolver. Especially when the revolver's trigger is so heavy and there are no sights. Don't imagine NYPD's rules were any different than Toronto PD's was. Only thing they could change on their issue revolver was the grips. Absolutely no internal work of any kind was permitted.
Doesn't matter what a retired cop does. That'd be on his own nickel.
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Old November 30, 2017, 03:02 PM   #6
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NYPD revolvers

I remember those old S&W model 10s and it was so easy to slick them up.

Times have changes and LEOs carrying revolvers would be at a great disadvantage in today's world.
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Old November 30, 2017, 03:31 PM   #7
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It's understandable. I love my revolvers and I think they are excellent weapons that are still relevant. However, when your job is to actually go into trouble and not just defend yourself from it, things change. I would not choose a six shot .357 or even a .44 if I'm patrolling a neighborhood like West Englewood in Chicago. I'm betting the officers of the NYPD feel the same about some of their neighborhoods.
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Old November 30, 2017, 05:09 PM   #8
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I am a former LEO and carried both, a Mel 19 S&W and then a 1911 Colt. There were high capacity 9mm available Hi-powers and Mdl 59 S&W. They held no attraction for me. My belief was that a well placed shot with a powerful cartridge was the best choice I could make. Magazine capacity and fast reloads were not a first priority, single stack or speed loaders were sufficient. The key was "A well placed shot". Constant practice and training, then and now, is the absolute necessity. "Noises 14 or 6 defeat no threat. I understand all of the theory behind a striker fired hi-cap 9mm. I call BS on a lot of the narrative. LEOs need to be "pistoleros", because it is a skill necessary to the job. Because current management was not trained to that concept, "old timers" like Bill Jordan aren't followed.

Every LEO should feel that their handgun is a part of their hand. But, that requires a level of training that makes current management uncomfortable. Guns are just not viewed positively by them and the politicians. And, training and practice is expensive.

A good revolver in the hands of a "pistoleros is a whole lot more potent than a 17 round whiz bang 9mm in the hands of some LEO who barely "qualifies" and has only minimal skills.
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Old November 30, 2017, 06:01 PM   #9
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Don't feel too bad, or get too romantic and wistful, the vast bulk of NYPD officers have not used wheelguns since the mid 1990s. That's when they mandated that officers transition to 9mm pistols beginning in 1994. Only those officers who had been on the job prior to 1994 could retain their revolvers. Anyone hired since then had no choice as a main. That's 23 years ago. NYPD was late to that show.

So if you began there in 1994 or later you had to have a semi as your main. You could have a revolver as a backup or off duty piece though. They will still be able to use a revolver as an off duty piece.

That's not many officers left who have been carrying a revolver as their main.

Quote:
In May 1926 the NYPD adopted the .38 Special cartridge as the standard issue ammunition for the department and started issuing its officers the Smith & Wesson Model 10 revolver and the Colt Official Police revolver. In 1994 the NYPD replaced the revolver as its main service weapon and adopted the 9mm semiautomatic pistol as its standard issued sidearm, replacing the .38 Special revolver. NYPD officers who were "on the job" on or prior to 1994 could continue to carry their revolvers if they wished. The .38 Special can still be found as a backup or off duty weapon, particularly with long serving personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ice_Department

Also of interest:

https://nypost.com/2016/11/28/nypd-v...t-better-guns/

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Old November 30, 2017, 06:56 PM   #10
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Illinois Department of Corrections (IDOC) still rocks wheelers. This is my attempt to copy their rig:



They use Smith & Wesson Model 64s, basketweave black leather holsters, and speedloaders. I recently had the opportunity to witness some of their inmate transportation officers carrying these on a detail in Southern Illinois.

While the revolver isn't the best choice for a front line beat cop, they still have their place in lower threat law enforcement duties. They are also excellent civillian personal defenders.

Six for sure. Long live the wheel gun!
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Old November 30, 2017, 10:13 PM   #11
DM357
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That's a heck of a choice for a prison environment, though I'd prefer a .357 and load it with .38s if I needed to. There are some pretty mild shelf choices for the .357 that are still a wee bit more effective, especially with that barrel length. I love that holster choice, beauty and simplicity. What brand of pouch is that?
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Old December 1, 2017, 03:12 AM   #12
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Hgmeyer. I agree with you 100%. Higher Magazine capacity shouldn't replace skill and confidence gained through practice and familiarity. The vast majority of LEO's today have no idea who Bill Jordan was, or what skills he empathized, or how lightening fast that man was. I grew up reading his articles. His book "No Second Place Winner", first published in 1965, should be mandatory reading for anyone who carrys for self defense, regardless of the weapon they chose. I own and enjoy shooting numerous semiautomatics. I just don't trust them 100%. I have seen far too many semi auto jams on the qualifion ranges over the years to trust a semi as much as a revolver. Limp wristing / improper grip, ammo issues, improper lubrication, weather, faulty magazine issues and pressing the muzzle up against a hard object causing the slide to slightly disengage, etc. can and will cause semiautomatic pistols to malfunction. While revolvers are certainly not immune from malfunctioning, in my experience they are FAR less likely to do so if properly maintained. Off duty, I trust and carry a revolver.

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Old December 1, 2017, 03:55 AM   #13
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Well I hope they sell them and not destroy them. Knowing N.Y. it wouldn't surprise me.
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Old December 1, 2017, 07:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
"...all [new autos] with 12# triggers...."
Small wonder that the NYPD oft-times hits more bystanders than bad guys...
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Old December 1, 2017, 09:53 AM   #15
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Hate to see it. I carried a revolver (Model 28) for most of my 20 years in LE. Later in my career they started allowing certain semis. I tried carrying a M1911, excellent pistol but it didnt suit my needs and I quickly went back to my trusty revolver.

This was Alaska, we dealt with a lot of large animal calls. Putting down moose at traffic accident. Guarding kids at school bus stops from bear/moose hanging around the area.

These critters need penetration which the 45 ACP just didnt have.

My 357 never let me down. I still shoot revolvers better then I do semis. Would have no problem carrying one in LE today.

Never felt outgunned.

Still remember from my Police Admin. collage classes my favorite line from O.W. Wilson's book, POLICE ADMINISTRATION.

"When picking a service revolver, it should be heavy, so's it can be use as a club if necessary"

He certainly had the old Highway Patrolman in mind when he made that statement.

Guess the classic old days of Heavy Revolvers and Hickory Nightsticks are gone forever.

Sad times indeed. At least my department let me keep my service revolver when I retired.

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Old December 1, 2017, 01:43 PM   #16
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We had a young lady that attended last years, "Women on Target" class. she decided she wanted a .38 revolver. I offered to go with her to help. She wanted to do it herself. She came back a few days later asking for help as she couldn't get her dads ammo to fit in it. After I looked at this old gun. I determined it was chambered for .38 S&W not .38 Spl. FFL would not take it back.


The point being a lot of the NYPD don't know much about guns and only shoot when they are required to re-qualify. A lot of urban PD are in the same boat.

Back When I carried as a part of my profession I was burning up about 200 rounds a month. Half in a combat action setup and half bullseye.
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Old December 1, 2017, 05:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
Hate to see it. I carried a revolver (Model 28) for most of my 20 years in LE. Later in my career they started allowing certain semis. I tried carrying a M1911, excellent pistol but it didnt suit my needs and I quickly went back to my trusty revolver.

This was Alaska, we dealt with a lot of large animal calls. Putting down moose at traffic accident. Guarding kids at school bus stops from bear/moose hanging around the area.

These critters need penetration which the 45 ACP just didnt have.

My 357 never let me down. I still shoot revolvers better then I do semis. Would have no problem carrying one in LE today.

Never felt outgunned.

Still remember from my Police Admin. collage classes my favorite line from O.W. Wilson's book, POLICE ADMINISTRATION.

"When picking a service revolver, it should be heavy, so's it can be use as a club if necessary"

He certainly had the old Highway Patrolman in mind when he made that statement.

Guess the classic old days of Heavy Revolvers and Hickory Nightsticks are gone forever.

Sad times indeed. At least my department let me keep my service revolver when I retired.

Nice gear photo Kraig.
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Old December 2, 2017, 12:19 AM   #18
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Cue the video from the infamous Empire State Building shooting!

IDOC might still have revolvers, but Arizona DOC ditched the Ruger Service Six about 16 years ago for the Glock 19. Some clearing barrels still have instructions for clearing the revolver on the sign, but the only wheelguns coming on the complex are those carried personally by staff.
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Old December 2, 2017, 04:59 AM   #19
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scores

Been my experience that the 9mm semiauto pistols, I'd hazzard of nearly any brand, would be easier to train the broad spectrum of LE cadets these days, as opposed to the DA revolver. The DA trigger pull requires a bit of hand strength, and some folks, (in my experience it was the ladies) sometimes did not have that. We issued "half guns" at FLETC, DA revolvers with the barrels and cylinders removed, but tweaked to allow the DA pul, and instructed folks so challenged, to work on their hand strength to cycle those devices when ever possible.

When my agency switched to the auto pistol, scores across the board, went up.
Working a semi takes more savvy, the manual of arms is more complex, and you are buying into increased maintenance, but I believe semis are far easier to shoot.
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Old December 2, 2017, 06:41 AM   #20
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the revolver era ends at NYPD

I believe that NYPD officers buy their sidearms themselves.

Way back when it was a Smith & Wesson model 10 or a Colt Police Positive. Then it was the S&W 64 and the Ruger Speed Six.

Agencies around here began converting from revolvers to auto pistols about 1988. The training took three days and about 750 rounds.

If my choices were a Glock with a NY + trigger spring or a DAO Sig, I'm not sure what my selection would be. I have a lot of experience with the DA/SA Sig and the DAK Sig but I don't think I've ever shot one of the DAO versions.

The DAO thing was never popular around here. Just as well.

Early in my career I carried a S&W 15 Combat Masterpiece. I love those guns and still shoot mine sometimes, but I have always preferred auto pistols for service use.

However, one advantage with a revolver was that you could easily change the grips to fit the shooter's hands. I first started teaching in the police academy in 1988, and there were still a fair number of recruits coming through with revolvers for a few years. If somebody had small hands, we'd get them a set of Pachmayr "Professional" grips with the exposed backstrap, which usually reduced the reach to the face of the trigger enough.

Shooters with small hands often struggle with a double column auto pistol.
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Old December 2, 2017, 07:28 AM   #21
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Quote:
Cue the video from the infamous Empire State Building shooting!
EMPIRE STATE BLDG SHOOTING
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Old December 2, 2017, 09:23 AM   #22
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Kraigwyy - Hoyt holster? That's what I used for five years.
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Old December 2, 2017, 08:58 PM   #23
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I suspect this was largely a formality in case any are still lurking in the admin staff desks. Also, hammerless 12# DAOs (as required by policy) are hardly desirable surplus, other than as curiosities.
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Old December 3, 2017, 01:11 PM   #24
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"Spray and Pray" by NYPD?

Let's not have speculative discussion about how the NYPD performs in shooting or gun handling.

The NYPD keeps extensive records on the subject and publishes an Annual Firearms Discharge Report. We therefore have data, and speculation isn't necessary or useful.
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Old December 3, 2017, 01:29 PM   #25
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Annual records for a number of police depts. are available from those departments, NYPD, LAPD, etc. They are worthwhile studies and deserve to be read.

It's not useful, IMHO, to mock these agencies in regard to this.

Anyway only a small number of NYPD officers still had revolvers as a primary and those were grandfathered in only for those on the job before 1994. This will mostly effect those carrying them as backups.

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