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Old March 12, 2018, 09:15 AM   #26
Savvy_Jack
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Saturday's shoot was very promising. I was very pleased with the results. Today I tested Winchester, Magteck and Buffalo Bore factory ammunition as well as a few more handloads. The below photograph is targets 177 thru 182 ALL 100 YARDS. Temp 45deg, cloudy and humid, no wind.

Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest


#177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. 975fps with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77


#178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. 1,055fps with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41


#179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. 1,436fps, ES 48, 1 3/4" to 3 3/4"Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP


#180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. 1,500fps, ES 45, 2"Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI


#181 - Buffalo Bore's #44-40-200-HC factory ammunition, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI


#182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. 1,382fps, ES 53, 1 3/4" Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI
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Old March 13, 2018, 09:29 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driftwood Johnson View Post
I had the chance to examine one of the 44 Mag '73s a couple of years ago. It was on the shelf right next to a '73 chambered for 45 Colt if I recall correctly. As far as I could tell, there was absolutely no difference between the frames of the 44 Mag and the 45 Colt. They both appeared to be the same thickness to me. Which makes the most sense, manufacturing wise. It would cost a lot more to beef up the frame of one chambered for 44 Mag instead of just using the same components as was in a standard one chambered for 44-40 or 45 Colt. Interestingly enough, going to the Uberti website, the suggested retail price for the 44 Mag model is the same as the suggested retail price of the 45 Colt, 44-40, and 357 Mag versions. Which tells me there is no difference in the components, other than the chambering of the barrel. Bear in mind, all these guns are proofed in Italy to European standards, which are slightly higher than SAAMI specs. That means the guns have survived a proof charge of about 1/3 more pressure as the standard maximum pressure for the cartridge in question. However how well the gun will stand up to the continued pounding of 44 Mag loads over time is a completely different question. I remember one time a buddy bought a used Uberti '73 chambered for 357 Mag. He brought it back when he discovered a crack in the frame. No idea why it was cracked, but the suspicion was that the frame gave way after too many full power 357 Mag loads.

Regarding how thin the pins are, when a toggle link gun is properly set up, the thrust of recoil is spread out by the ends of the toggle links against the mortises in the frame, not the pivot pins. Yes, I have chatted with Steve of Steve's guns before, he certainly knows what he is talking about. But historical evidence has shown that with the brass framed guns, the '66 and the Henry, the brass frame is fairly likely to stretch with heavy loads. The steel framed '73 or Henry less so. But any of these rifles, steel framed or brass framed, will give years of service when fired with ammunition that does not exceed SAAMI spec for pressure. You do not have to restrict them to cowboy or 'cowgirl' loads.
I talked to Uberti representatives and while the dimensions of the receivers is the same, the steel isn't. The 44 mag leverguns have a stronger steel frame which won't take the case hardening look treatment which is why they are only available in blued. Further, I talked to Uberti CS and they don't recommend firing a steady diet of full power 44mag loads because it could loosen the action (read oval the holes in the toggle links and/or beat up the pins).
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Old March 13, 2018, 10:01 AM   #28
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If you are plinking steel why would you want/need hot loads? Seems like the standard pressure heavier bullets would be more beneficial. Consistency is the key.
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Old March 13, 2018, 12:50 PM   #29
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Zipspider, not everyone shoots at steel. Not everyone shoots a steady dose of heavy loads (cept me).

It either can be done or can not be done, either way there are always exceptions.

On another note....
Its funny when I ask questions or post something that has already been posted, I get yelled at for not using the search engine. But then when I do use the search engine and reply to an old topic, I get yelled at for reviving an old thread.
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Old March 13, 2018, 01:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by zipspyder View Post
If you are plinking steel why would you want/need hot loads? Seems like the standard pressure heavier bullets would be more beneficial. Consistency is the key.
Some of us like to shoot steel at long ranges using a tang with target aperture in the rear and precision front sight (like a globe) up front. I've found that my full power 158grn 357mag loads remain accurate out at 300 yds while lower powered ones will drift more.
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Old March 13, 2018, 01:52 PM   #31
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I never said all everybody does is shoot steel. And I'd hazard to guess those that shoot 44-40's out to 300 yards would be the minority...yikes some people get triggered easily. Shoot what you like if the rifle can handle it but I imagine hot loads are more for just "cuz I can" than anything besides maybe hunting.
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Old March 13, 2018, 05:01 PM   #32
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If it is at 300 meters, it survives cause I can't even see 300 meters...

There is a time and place for everything and folks need to just let folks do what they do. If folks don't like it, move on and let it go.....

Yes, as can be seen in the targets I posted, sometimes it takes a strong load to reach out with accuracy weather it is 100 yards, 300yds or even 1,000 yards for the Buffalo guys....Sometimes it even takes a stout load to hit something big in close like a wild bore......piss-ant Winchester factory loads just don't cut the mustard. Shooting mouse farts at steel targets has it's place too.....I love it all!!!

Folks say if ya want 44 magnum performance, go get a 44 magnum. Well that can go both ways, if folks want 44 Henry performance, go get a 44 Henry ;-)

Know the firearm, know what it is capable of and it's limitations.

Back to the original post from back on 2015

kcub
Quote:
One of the original attributes was to have ammo commonality between revolver and rifle.
True....was a great feature for the 44-40....one ammo, two firearms. We have to remember one thing...original black powder ballistics(rifle)...1,300fps+- with a 200gr lead bullet with great accuracy out to 300+ meters (reported 1,000 yards to penetrate 4" pine boards). Same ammo in a revolver produced nearly 1,000fps.

Quote:
In Cartridges of the World they mention a factory peppier load "for rifles only".
Yes, in 1903 the High Velocity cartridge was introduced using a jacketed soft point bullet. Pressures were reported to be 22,000psi and not safe for early rifles like the Winchester 73' or any revolver. Over time, even this ammunition was neutered like Remington's "High Velocity" ammo good for all firearms. This is NOT the same ammo ballistics originally manufactured before WWII up thru about 1950.

After about 1960, Winchester neutered their ammunition down to 1860 Henry ballistics. Even though smokeless powder loads can replicate black powder loads below SAAMI max pressure, the pressure curve or "Spike" is not the same. Also, early bores came in many diameters like .424, .426, .427. The problem with this is that if a person uses the more popular .429-.430 soft lead bullets, jacketed as well......squeezing them down the tighter bore can cause the chamber pressures to exceed max pressures for those firearms. Both rifle and revolver. This was the exact concern with Buffalo Bores current manufactured loads that replicate original black powder velocities but using a hard cast lead bullet. If this cartridge is used in a tight bore, it could exceed SAAMI max pressures but perfectly safe for all and any firearm and replica there-of with the more modern larger diameter bores.

Quote:
Today most ammo is cowgirl @ 725 fps. And then there is Winchester jsp at 1190 fps. Is it safe in revolvers? Also there is Magtech blue box @ 1180 with a lead flatnose bullet. Safe in revolvers? Will it lead a barrel?
This is the result of years of mis-informations, capitalism, on a sport that doesn't need high performance ammunition, without explanations. History has been lost.

Quote:
At what barrel length are these velocities measured?
Early 1800's (1,300fps) documentations used the 24" barrel but the chronographs were poor and they failed to document if it was measured from the muzzle or out to 50 feet. Early results claimed 50 feet and in 1945(I think) it was changed to "at the muzzle" increasing the velocity from the 1870's 1,245 to a more modern 1,301. Many modern companies fail to disclose the barrel length information although I have seen the majority validated by using the "Universal Receivers" (pressure test barrels) of various lengths by reloading manuals.

For the 44-40, Lyman's 49th reports using a 6" Universal Receiver for the revolver loads and the 24" barrel rifle for the rifle loads. The rifle is not a pressure test barrel so they must have used some other testing program. SAAMI lists a 16" pressure test barrel for pressure testing their standards while Lymans 3rd Pistol & Revolver lists the 6" with a 1-20 twist.


I also talked to an Uberti rep about the revolvers and was told the 44 magnum buckhorn cylinders, 44-40 cylinders, 45 colt cylinders and the 45 ACP cylinders were all made from the same steel. If it's a lie, he told it! I have no idea about the rifles....and is why I use a Marlin with my load developments. I also use a 20" MGM 1 1/4 thick barrel for my out of this world loads.

Surf this site for a while https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/

My mind just went blank, chalk it up to old age I guess so I will stop there!!!

My youtube videos,44-40 MGM test barrel and custom platform

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN6undl4ZgI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiUFqhsFcg

Last edited by Savvy_Jack; March 13, 2018 at 06:01 PM.
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Old March 13, 2018, 06:46 PM   #33
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Quote:
had the chance to examine one of the 44 Mag '73s a couple of years ago. It was on the shelf right next to a '73 chambered for 45 Colt if I recall correctly. As far as I could tell, there was absolutely no difference between the frames of the 44 Mag and the 45 Colt.
The 1873 was never chambered in 45colt. Obviously not in 44mag either. New manufactured guns maybe be held to a different standard. You would not rechamber an old genuine Winchester 73 to 44mag. I never even seen a repro in 44mag!

I think it was already pointed out the area to beef up on a 73 rifle is the toggle link. Not a question of frame thickness.
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Old March 13, 2018, 07:03 PM   #34
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awnotbWMFLw&t=19s
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Old March 14, 2018, 12:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
The 1873 was never chambered in 45colt. Obviously not in 44mag either. New manufactured guns maybe be held to a different standard. You would not rechamber an old genuine Winchester 73 to 44mag. I never even seen a repro in 44mag!

I think it was already pointed out the area to beef up on a 73 rifle is the toggle link. Not a question of frame thickness.
I am completely aware the original 1873 Winchester was never offered chambered for 45 Colt. I was talking about comparing an Uberti replica chambered for 45 Colt to an Uberti replica chambered for 44 Mag.

As far as I could tell, without detailed measurements, the dimensions looked pretty much the same.

Regarding frame strength vs toggle strength, do not forget all the old toggle link rifles had what would be essentially skeletonized frames. Take the sideplates off and there is a big empty hole where the side plates were. Not the best situation for strength. The Model 1892, on the other hand had a solid frame, which would be much stronger then the skeletonized frame of the '73. The first '73s had iron frames. At some point this was changed to steel. Even so, it would not be a high strength, modern steel.

A bunch of years ago a friend bought a used Uberti 1873 rifle chambered for 357 Magnum. When he got it home, he found a crack in one side of the frame. Nothing wrong with the toggles, but the frame was cracked. Probably from too many full house 357 Magnum loads. He took it back and got his money back. Bottom line is, with a skeletonized frame, a '73 is not going to be as strong as a rifle with a solid frame, all other things being equal.
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Old March 14, 2018, 01:21 PM   #36
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Bottom line is if you fire continuous stout loads in a weapon that was never meant to have that many hot loads slung out of it then you will eventually have issues. Also, if you NEED to fire hot loads going over sammi specs to get the best accuracy then that is on you or the rifle. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy or maybe you need to move up a caliber.
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Old March 14, 2018, 01:43 PM   #37
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You still dont get it do you? What part of 1903 factory manufactured 44-40 high velocity loads that produced 22,000 psi do you not understand? Perfectly safe for stronger guns namely the Winchester 92. Same with the 45-70.

SAAMI max loads dont always just limit the cartridge but it also takes in to account the limits of the the weapons that use it.
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Old March 14, 2018, 02:14 PM   #38
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It's not always SAAMI max that is the problem

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...olver-in-half/
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Old March 14, 2018, 03:31 PM   #39
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What don't I get? We are talking about the same thing here. Stout loads in equipment not made for it shot over the long term. Once made 100 year old ammo withstanding. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy or maybe you need to move up a caliber. I neve rsaid SAAMI is the be all but it's what we got for pressures. You quote an article where they have no idea how the pistol broke, just a guess as some sort of evidence?
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Old March 14, 2018, 03:53 PM   #40
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For 50 years I have heard of "For Rifle Only" 44-40 and 32-20 ammo but I have never actually seen any. Nor have I seen the specs to see the difference.
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Old March 14, 2018, 05:15 PM   #41
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Quote:
What don't I get? We are talking about the same thing here. Stout loads in equipment not made for it shot over the long term.
44-40
1. Winchester 73' lever action, Whitney-Kennedy lever action, Colt-Burgess lever action, Marlin model 1888 lever action, Colt Lightning slide action, Replica Winchester 73' lever actions, Remington #2 Rolling-Block SS, Ballard #2 single shot, and the Stevens model 44 single shot are all weak actions and should stay below max SAAMI pressures 11,000 psi

2. Winchester 92' lever action, Marlin 1889 lever action, Marlin model 1894 lever action, Remington-Keene bolt action, Remington model 14 1/2 slide action, Winchester single shot rifles, Remington #1 rolling block, Remington Baby Carbine SS, and the Stevens model 44 1/2 single shot all can shoot 22,000 psi just fine, just as intended by the ammo manufacture.

I am glad we can agree on that!!

Quote:
Once made 100 year old ammo withstanding. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy
Cant argue with that but.......its nice to be able to kick butt when needed, also a little more explanations below ;-)


Quote:
or maybe you need to move up a caliber.
or move down to a BB gun or paint ball gun to plink steel targets?

Quote:
I neve rsaid SAAMI is the be all but it's what we got for pressures
.
Nope!!, its what SAAMI uses but if you see published pressures from a 24" barrel, it will not be from a pressure test barrel[that I know of]!
Also, there is the CIP method....

Quote:
You quote an article where they have no idea how the pistol broke, just a guess as some sort of evidence?
My point exactly! The most common cause of a firearm exploding is from a double charge rather than an over charge. However, just below the photo of the broke revolver....the very first sentence says they were using Winchester white box factory loads. We have no idea as to the history of the firearm, were any hot loads used previously and if so, how many? Does the owner's manual caution not to use +P loads?


Back to the 44 magnum chambered Winchester 73'.....what does the manual caution against the type of ammo to use? If it is stamped 44 magnum, it should be able to withstand a steady dose of max SAAMI loads......just like our original conversation. If I took a cannon, a solid iron core and bored it out to chamber a 44-40 cartridge, will SAAMI max be an issue? NO! If I took a 357 magnum and bored it out to chamber a 44-40....would the firearm handle SAAMI max? NO!!!

A cartridge has it's limitations as so does the weapon that chambers it. The problem with the older "dash" cartridges like the 44-40, 38-40 etc is that they were more powerful and more accurate at distances with black powder loads....in comparrison, now they are neutered down smokeless loads but create "equal" pressures. When Winchester manufactured the 92', the 44-40 cartridges were nirtosized, doubleing in chamber pressures....proving the cartridge was not weak, but the weapons that once chambered it were!! Using +P or even +P+ loads in the newer stronger guns is perfectly fine. Has nothing to do with advancing to the next size cartridge, but everything to do with getting the best with what you have.

Any 44 magnum stamped firearm should safely shoot a steady load of any SAAMI max spec manufactured ammo. Just because it is a 44 magnum doesnt mean folks should assume it's okay to shoot home grown stout loads.

Same with the 45-70, we all know the weak link here is the Trapdoor Springfield so that is were SAAMI makes it's max! BUT, we all know that the stronger rifles use a much stronger load for those that like stout loads.
Trapdoor is held a 18,000cup max while the 1886 Winchester and 1895 Marlins are safe up to 28,000cup. So if 18,000 is good enough for the trapdoor, why increase the load to 28,000? That is exactly the philosophy I used with the 44-40 73' vs 92'. It is common practice for the 45-70 so your
Quote:
Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy
is valid but not necessary.

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Old March 14, 2018, 05:51 PM   #42
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Necro threads

I for one greatly appreciate the warning that pops up here when a poster is bringing a thread back from the dead. It's helped me a couple times.

I suggested another site I frequent do the same, they are not interested. It's common there for 10 year old threads to be dredged up.
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Old March 14, 2018, 06:11 PM   #43
Savvy_Jack
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Saxonpig
Quote:
For 50 years I have heard of "For Rifle Only" 44-40 [and 32-20] ammo but I have never actually seen any. Nor have I seen the specs to see the difference.

NOT FOR PISTOLS

NOTE H.V. HEADSTAMPS

NOTE H.V. HEADSTAMPS

And the neutered High Velocity by Remington tha can be used in all revolvers etc.





30wcf
Quote:
Beginning back in 1903, and for about the next 40 years, higher velocity .44-40 cartridges were offered for both the '94 Marlin and '92 Winchester. Catalog velocity was almost 1,600 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet. Pressure was reported to be around 22,000 p.s.i. and therefore were not safe to be used in the '73 Winchester.

Lately, I have been working with my '94 Marlin Cowboy Ltd. (24") replicating those vintage factory offerings. As I recall. 44-40 Willy had done some of this in the past.

The jacketed bullets I have used have been 1.)R-P 200 gr. .427", 2.)Winchester 200 gr. .426" 3.) Speer 200 gr. .429"
The groove diameter in my rifle is .428" and all of the bullets shot well even though both the R-P and Winchester were smaller than the groove diamater. Surprisingly, the smallest group was fired with the Winchester bullet that was .002" under groove diameter.

Using R-P cases, here are the loads I have tried:
20 / 2400 / 1,670 f.p.s.
21 / 4759 / 1,619 f.p.s. (Capacity load)
21 / H4227 / 1,610 f.p.s.
25 / XMP5744 / 1,630 f.p.s. (Capacity load)

All of these loads shot groups in the 1 1/2" range @ 50 yards.

The best group to date came with a slightly higher charge of H4227 under the Winchester bullet.
22 / H4227 /1,685 f.p.s. went into less than 1" for 5 shots @ 50 yards....but the powder had to be positioned to the back of the case to get that result/

I'ts been kind of neat stepping back in history and shooting these replication loads of days gone by.



w30wcf

https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...-of-Yesteryear


Also, look back at the targets I posted and review target #181...right target head shots. 200gr Lasercast at 1,500fps @ 100 yards at barely +P loads....well below the +P+ 22,000psi SAAMI from yeasteryears HV factory loads. No leading!
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=26

Last edited by Savvy_Jack; March 15, 2018 at 02:15 AM.
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Old March 27, 2018, 05:39 PM   #44
Savvy_Jack
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Today's 44-40 results. 100 yards
Lyman's 47 listed 23.5gr of RL-7 with a 240gr lead bullet as well as Lee's 44-40 three die set pamphlet, 1995 Hercules data and 2005 Alliant data. All four show the same results. 24" barrel, 1,290fps @ 12,100cup

I used 25gr which could push this load just inside +P loads
Marlin 1894CB 26" barrel, scoped for my old eyes.


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Old March 28, 2018, 11:03 AM   #45
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Here's a picture of a box of vintage (1920s/1930s) ammo for the Winchester 1892.

Notice the statement in red.




Apparently these rounds had the reputation of taking the sideplates off Winchester 1873s if people didn't heed the warnings.
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