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Old February 21, 2018, 11:45 PM   #1
SCCY
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1000 yard scope

My dog is getting ready to have another litter of puppies and I sell them between $1400-$2000 each. www.tannersbullterriers.com

Anyways I always spend $1000 on firearms every litter.

I'm interested in getting a Browning AB3 Stalker in .308 caliber this time.

My question is what power/size of scope would I need to reach out to 1000 yards.

Or should I get an AR?

I want a 1000 yard rifle and scope combo under $1000

What do you recommend?
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Old February 22, 2018, 08:38 AM   #2
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I think the terrier that you sell to fund this should be named Leupold
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Old February 22, 2018, 09:44 AM   #3
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I think $1000 for a rifle is a decent budget. I hope you'll get a good one. All the best.
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Old February 22, 2018, 03:05 PM   #4
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I have shot out 1000 yards with a 3.5X scope. I have also shot out to 1000 yards with iron sights.

What is your goal? What exactly are you trying to do?
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Old February 22, 2018, 03:13 PM   #5
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I shoot 600 yds weekly and my general paper target sweet spot for magnification is about 20X . I took the Sig "Reach for a Thousand" instructional class a few times, and for 1K I like 28-32X max. You have to understand as distances grow longer and you up your magnification it becomes VERY difficult to maintain a rock solid steady hold on target. At 1K with 32X I was attempting to engage a spray paint rattle can as my target. A normal breath pulls you right off target, and a calm heartbeat also causes your crosshairs to move off target. This is where mastering your respiratory pause is critical
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Old February 22, 2018, 03:44 PM   #6
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With that rifle we are talking about hitting steel at 1000 yards. Not competitive bench rest shooting.

If you spend $500 on the AB3 then i would recommend the Sightron STAC 4-20X50.

I just put one on my custom Mauser and love the thing!
Run you $400-450.

Oh and Magnumwill,
That sir was a good one! Lol
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Old February 22, 2018, 03:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
You have to understand as distances grow longer and you up your magnification it becomes VERY difficult to maintain a rock solid steady hold on target. At 1K with 32X I was attempting to engage a spray paint rattle can as my target. A normal breath pulls you right off target, and a calm heartbeat also causes your crosshairs to move off target. This is where mastering your respiratory pause is critical
Hate to break it to you, but that is happening regardless of magnification. You just can't see the same movement at ~10X that you do at ~30X.

Your hold is your hold, it doens't change because you have a bigger number in front of the X on your optics.

Pretty sure the Browning AB3 Stalker is a hunting weight rifle, not a target/LR rig, which really makes me question his goals.

If you intend to shoot at game animals out to 1000 yards, put any such idiotic ideas out of your head.

If you want a sub $1K 1000 yard capable target rifle, look at some of the varmint/tactical rifles, something like this:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoot...4.uts?slotId=2

Get that in .308 Win or 6.5 CM, add a tapered base and one of these:
http://www.cabelas.com/product/hunti...6.uts?slotId=9

And you will have a workable entry level long range rig for right about your budget.
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Old February 22, 2018, 11:15 PM   #8
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Trying to hit a 12" target at 1000 yds

Thank-you so much for your wisdoms.
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Old February 23, 2018, 02:20 AM   #9
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1.2 MOA.......gong rifle

Consistently hitting a 12" target at 1000 yds, with a .308 or near anything else, would be very good shooting indeed. Doing it with a sporting rifle, and factory ammo would make it even more remarkable. That would be 9-10's on the NRA target, likely putting one in the 190's, which would be a good 1000 yd score with a dedicated match rifle and custom ammo.

I'm with emcon, buy one of the Savage heavy barrels and the Vortex. You may well need the 20 degree base to have sufficient elevation, depending on the amount of adjustment available on the scope. With the .308, if the distances are known, the wind is your biggest enemy. The 6.5 CM will slip the wind better, and will shoot flatter too if you get into unknown distances.

I shot at .308/1000 a few times, and was happy to shoot in the 180's, and often did much worse. I ran the 6-24x Burris maxed out at 24x, shooting at the big 1000 yd F-target with the 1MOA (10") 10 ring. The black on the Fclass target at 1000 is 5 FEET across. Usually, I had bullets strung laterally across that target, the culprit, my inability to dope the wind, shot to shot.
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Old February 23, 2018, 06:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaranger
Consistently hitting a 12" target at 1000 yds, with a .308 or near anything else, would be very good shooting indeed. Doing it with a sporting rifle, and factory ammo would make it even more remarkable. That would be 9-10's on the NRA target, likely putting one in the 190's, which would be a good 1000 yd score with a dedicated match rifle and custom ammo.

I'm with emcon, buy one of the Savage heavy barrels and the Vortex. You may well need the 20 degree base to have sufficient elevation, depending on the amount of adjustment available on the scope. With the .308, if the distances are known, the wind is your biggest enemy. The 6.5 CM will slip the wind better, and will shoot flatter too if you get into unknown distances.

I shot at .308/1000 a few times, and was happy to shoot in the 180's, and often did much worse. I ran the 6-24x Burris maxed out at 24x, shooting at the big 1000 yd F-target with the 1MOA (10") 10 ring. The black on the Fclass target at 1000 is 5 FEET across. Usually, I had bullets strung laterally across that target, the culprit, my inability to dope the wind, shot to shot.
When I was trying to decide what caliber to use for my 1K Sig class I had two choices my R700 308 Varmint, or my R700 300WM. Problem with my 308 is the 1-12" twist barrel. My most accurate and consistent bullet choice was either the 155 or the 168. Ideally a 175+ gr bullet at a minimum 2600 fps is best suited for 1K. I simply didn't have any consistent accurate loads with the heavier 175 gr bullets. I ended up with using my 300WM , and the 208 Amax handloads. I shot excellent. Took me 9 attempts, but I did eventually hit the spray paint can at 1K, and i'm sure it was more luck than skill. My spotter was using a R700 20" Tac in 308 and he shot outstanding out to 700 yds. When it came time to shoot 1K he struggled with bullet instability. He was shooting the FGMM 168 ammo and the 168 smk is not the best for 1K especially with the shorter barrel. The top shooter in my first class was using a Savage in 6.5CM and that caliber is just awesome for long range, Flat, fast and mild felt recoil.
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Old February 23, 2018, 09:04 AM   #11
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I'm running an 8-32x56 NF out to 1100 yards out of my .308.
I also have a cheap bushnell 3-9x32 that I run out to 800 yards.
The difference. Being able to actually see the 10" target at 1000 yards when you have thermals and extreme environmental conditions.
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Old February 23, 2018, 10:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
Trying to hit a 12" target at 1000 yds
Well, that is certainly possible with the Browning, but there are better tools for the job. It will be much more challenging, especially once the thin sporter barrel starts to heat up.

Any reason you decided on that rifle instead of a more traditional target-type with a heavy barrel?
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Old February 23, 2018, 10:56 AM   #13
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I don’t believe you can get what you want for $1000 retail for any conditions less than optimum. I looked around a lot, and ended up with 2 rifles that are solid at 1000 yards. But spent a lot more.
It sounds to me you need to sell a few more puppies, and look at a minimum of a Ruger Precision class rifle and Nightforce / Nikon / Steiner optic.

Cheap optics always work well in the showroom, but often choke when zooming out to maximum or even light mirage.
Bottom line: $1500+ for the rifle, same for the optics.
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Old February 23, 2018, 11:30 AM   #14
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Myself basically shoot from 400-600 yards away. And I think this distance is under my control.
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Old February 23, 2018, 01:34 PM   #15
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"...to reach out to 1000 yards..." A Browning AB3 Stalker is a 6 pound 9 ounce, entry level, hunting rifle. It's unlikely to be able to shoot 12" groups anywhere near 1,000.
A $1,000 AR-15 will be pretty basic too. You may want to look at the assorted catalogues to find out what you can have for a grand.
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Old February 23, 2018, 02:50 PM   #16
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The cheapest optics that I have on any of my long range guns cost right at $1k,good luck on getting anything with quality if that's your budget for a rifle/optics combination.
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Old February 23, 2018, 05:37 PM   #17
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My Sightron SIII 8-32X was about $875 and had NO problems at 1K. Excellent clarity, excellent tracking.
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Old February 23, 2018, 06:51 PM   #18
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Your goals aren't realistic. A 308 cartridge in the right rifle is a 1000 yard cartridge. In that rifle, with optics meeting your budget I think a 500 yard goal is more realistic. There are some rifle/scope combo's that would be a better option and get you to 1000 yards for under $1000.

A featherweight rifle made to be easy to carry in the mountains rarely has the accuracy to shoot well at that range. A dedicated target/varmint/tactical rifle, or at least one of the light tactical rigs out there would probably give you the accuracy you need without being a full blown heavy target rifle.

You could get to 1000 yards with a 10X scope, but a few more X's would be better. It can certainly be done with less than 20X.
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Old February 24, 2018, 09:53 PM   #19
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If the location where you'll be shooting up to 1k is a range with other shooters, suggest you go spend a day there checking it out. Consistently hitting minute of angle at that distance requires significant skill level on any thing but a day with perfect conditions- and I'll unashamedly admit that while I can ring a one-minute plate at 600 yards with boring regularity, those extra 400 yards make it a different ballgame altogether.

Most shooters are very personable, and generous with their skills and knowledge. Happy to share what they know, including what they like (and don't) about their gear. I suspect you might be surprised at how small a 12" plate looks at that distance, even with a 20x. If you're shooting open country and need to range your targets, then you should look at FFP scopes instead of SFP.

Your budget is tight, but I'd look at a Savage 10FCP and a SWFA 20x42, it'll be slightly over but close.

JMO, YMMV
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Old February 27, 2018, 03:16 PM   #20
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Some experience driven comments,
Foremost, hire a shooting coach that will drill you endlessly on the basics!
No one, and I mean not one single person learns to shoot 1,000 yds without the basics being drilled into them!
If you meet someone that shoots well @ 1,000 that says they are self taught, they LIE.
This is like driving fast on a road track, go to driving school so you at least know the vocabulary and can describe what the car is doing... Long range shooting is no different, and it's MUCH cheaper/more efficient to do it up front than learn the hard way!
----

1. No 'Also Ran' or 'Just Like' optics.
I found out the hard way the lesser priced optics DO NOT perform like the real thing.
From lense center grinding to mounting to mechanical fitting, there is no substitution for the few actual top end manufacturers.
I've tied up a second retirement fund in 'Same As' optics, and they just are not what they claim.

2. Just because this or that optics maker has a government contract doesn't mean that optic is 'Top End' or a military issued tested/tough enough for long term use.
I can think of at least half a dozen that do have government contract sales but didn't work as advertised and/or needed constant send back to the manufacturer to get rebuilt.

3. Keep in mind YOUR application, you won't be shooting unknown 'Estimated' ranges in the desert one week, or the jungle next week...
While I have zero issues with 'Tough' or 'Hardened' products, I'm NOT dragging a rifle through a jungle or desert creep anymore, so I don't need rubberized armor or any 'Super Duper' crap that adds weight and makes the optic harder to use.
A plain target optic is fine with me since the rifle goes from case to bench, back into the case...

4. MOUNTS are just as important as the optic!
A $2,000 optic in $30 mounts shoots like a $30 optic.
*IF* you are using your optic on an aluminum upper (like an AR format), then use ALUMINUM, long footprint one piece mount. The mount & upper will heat expand & contract at roughly the small rate NOT putting a bow in your expensive optic tube.

Lap the rings ROUND!
I guarantee a high end optic will have a ROUND tube, and an oval ring distorts the tube.
Use rings that have at least two screws per side, this distributes pressure more evenly and screws will stay tight without over torquing them.

If you have a steel receiver, use a ONE PIECE STEEL MOUNT.
Again, steel receiver & steel rail mount will expand/contract at roughly the same rate.
I use -8 screws, often adding an extra screw at one or both ends to keep the rail SECURE, and to stiffen up the ejection cut away in the receiver.
The more rigid, the better chance of accuracy...

5. Mark your rings/caps for front/rear & right/left sides so the rings/caps go back on the same way every time.
Use an INCH pound torque screwdriver to tighten cap/ring screws! Once a fasteners is stretched, it's worthless, an in.lb. drive tool will prevent this from happening and get your rings/caps back on where they belong and the correct torque for repeatability.

The ring/cap in front gets 1 punch mark and the rear two, on the left side, so rings/caps all get back where they belong. This is real easy and makes quite a difference.
Match the ring punch to the cap punch and the rings/caps are back on correctly. Very simple to do.

6. It's REAL hard to beat a FIXED power optic, say 10x for 1,000 yards.
The reason is, with vairable magnification, the image will sometimes change focal planes a dozen times, and that's a crap load of lenses, adjustment mechanicals that all have to work EXACTLY CORRECTLY, each & every time, for the optic to be of use.
The aforementioned thermal expansion alone screws things up, not to mention one single tiny grain of sand or machining burr throws everything off in unpredictable ways.

Keep in mind the Marines used fixed 10x optics for decades, scoring with the best target shooters in the world & making hits on enemies @1,000 to 1,200 yds with amazing regularly... While shooting a 7.62x51 cal round most people think is substandard today.
The warfighter NEEDS the power to do what most common shooters can't do at all, but a target bench shooter doesn't need something that will survive 100 foot fall from an aircraft.

7. Unless you know EXACTLY how a 'Mildot' reticle works, simply avoid them.
Unless your range finder is calibrated in metric (like a mildot reticle), then avoid them.
I've heard the endless argument about mildot NOT being metric or English standard, but the point of the matter is they simply are metric based, and intended to range using a human outline for range estimation.

Plain old cross hairs, based on English yards (not meters) makes for more pleasant target shooting.

8. Stay away from anything with a battery.
Nothing like EXPENSIVE, odd batteries that are always dead when you need them...
Or worse yet, corrode in the optic when not in use.
Battery corrosion IS NOT covered under any warranty I've ever heard of, and I've had two expensive optics die from leaking 'China' batteries even though they weren't left for long periods...

9. 'Clicks' are OK if the adjustment is fine enough... Most usually aren't for long range targets.
Keep in mind that most optics are 1/2", 1/3" or 1/4" OR, 1/2, 1/3 or 1/4 MOA (1.049") @ 100 yds.
That adjustment limitation continues to compound with increasing range.

Friction settings will allow you to select spaces between 'Clicks' for more precise adjustments, some optics will NOT let you stop between 'Clicks', so it's something to watch for...

10. Make darn sure your lenses are CENTERED, (centered in their adjustment travel) vertically & horizonal and adjust the MOUNT to get you close to the target @ 1,000
While lense manufacture has got a ton better in the past few years, the optical center of any lense is about 10-15%.
Honing/Lapping rings bases is slow work, but you get PRECISELY what fits your rifle.

The closer the mount is to the correct optic tube alignment, with lenses centered in the tube, the more accurate those lenses will be with SLIGHT adjustment.
It will throw you off at short range since you have to crank into the margins of the lenses, but keep in mind the deviation is reduced at shorter ranges.
Might as well have the optic working optimum at maximum range rather than at minimum range...

11. Centered over bore, on vertical axis...
This is 'Cant' in the optic when the optic is twisted over the barrel.
Those bubble levels WILL NOT get you square over the bore!
I've tried a bunch of them, and none beats the string/plumb-bob for squaring the optic with bore.

Hang a string/plumb-bob out so you can focus the optic on it. Loud color string helps.
Take bolt out, center the BORE on the string.
Rotate optic so vertical reticle is hiding the string.
Be VERY careful when you tighten the ring caps, keeping the string behind the vertical reticle line.

If you want to, put a bubble level on the receiver now, often times people are stunned how far off that bubble level is! Just because the top of the rifle/mount is flat doesn't mean it's level/plumb, and a plumb-bob is the ONLY way to square optics with bore...

Keep in mind that 1 minute of CANT (on a clock face) is a 55" misalignment @ 1,000 yards according g to the USMC.
I've personally never intentionally misaligned exactly one minute to see if this is true or not,but since the USMC long range/snipers manual hasn't been wrong about anything else, I'll take their word for it.

12. Bullet drop compensation.
The ONLY way a bullet drop compensator works is *IF*...
You are firing EXACTLY the same ammo through the exact same type of rifle the compensator was designed for...
Which makes it about worthless in civilian shooting, no need to have the reticle all marked up and busy if it's not going to be accurate, and virtually ZERO are past 300 yds.

The bullet has to leave the muzzle at EXACTLY the correct velocity, and the bullet has to have EXACTLY the correct weight & ballistic coefficient that matches the compensation hash marks on the reticle.
Faster or slower, different spin rate, different weight or BC and the compensator can't be accurate, so why bother?
Long range shooters always work up range cards for the ammo/rifle they are shooting, so what's the point?

Some are 'Sort Of' accurate at shorter ranges, but I can guarantee you it won't be anywhere close at the ragged end of the ballistic curve on any caliber...

----

By weeding out what you don't want, won't use you can limit your search to optics in your price range, or optics that don't have gimmicks & whiz-bang claims.
Right now, the most over-rated are also the most over priced and you see advertisments all over the place for them...

While companies like Leupold make a great product at a fair price without all the "Navy Seals" & special forces claims simply because they make a product that works as described, and they last for years & years if not a lifetime.
The military isn't going to replace your optic when it fails, they aren't going to update when the next whiz-bang gadget comes along, you aren't toing to need any of that whiz-bang stuff at your favorite 1,000 yard range (which are few & far between)...

The three rules should be,
1. Application.
2. Application.
3. Application.

Here is a short story for you...
When I started to compete in long range (40 odd years ago), I ran into some British shooters that were confused if I was American or from Canada.

They said Americans put $100 optic on $1,000 rifle,
While the rest of the world put $1,000 optic on $100 rifles.
A LOT of Mauser 98 outside of service rifle competitions, and a Mauser could be had for $100 almost anywhere in the world.
I had won the Leupold I was using, and about 50% of everyone else was too, while the Europeans ran a lot of Zeiss, and the 'Also Ran' types used 'Discount' optics.

Americans liked Weatherby at that time, $1,000 rifle which usually had $100 optic and just donated to the cause right along with the discount optics types.

I wish I would have taken that to heart at the time, it would have saved me a ton of money in the long run...
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Old February 27, 2018, 04:39 PM   #21
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All good advice. My advice is this:
You can't just buy your way to hitting 1 MOA at 1,000 yds. A good rifle with top quality optics will make it easier, but very few people just start out and shoot 1,000 yds. You have to train like a pro to shoot like a pro. You wouldn't expect to be an Olympic-class marathon runner just because you can jog on weekends. Take your Browning, put a good scope on it, and shoot 3,000-5,000 rounds at gradually increasing ranges over a year or so, working up to 1,000 yds. THEN buy a rifle and scope that will consistently perform at 1,000 yds.
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Old February 28, 2018, 06:39 AM   #22
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Some really interesting philosophies and experiences shared, very good reading. So many variables within the term "long range precision". You need a constant rifle (including consistent shooter mechanics), you need a consistent optic , AND you need a consistent load. Anyone with the passion for target shooting should read Brian Litz's book Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting :

http://appliedballisticsllc.com/products/books/
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Old February 28, 2018, 12:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Take your Browning, put a good scope on it, and shoot 3,000-5,000 rounds at gradually increasing ranges over a year or so, working up to 1,000 yds. THEN buy a rifle and scope that will consistently perform at 1,000 yds.
If he already had the Browning, I would agree with you, but from the sounds of things he is buying it for this, which like I said earlier, can work, but will be a lot harder, both in the rifle and the selected cambering. He would be much better served with a heavy barreled varmint/target/tactical type rifle, like the Savage I linked above. It will probably shoot better than he does for a long time, and is easy to upgrade later if needed.

Now if he is buying the Browning with the intent of it being a hunting rifle, that he will occasionally try and whack steel at 1000 yards, then that will work, all you really need is a tapered scope base to get enough elevation, but that changes the scope question, because a scope for 1000Y competition is usually more then you need for a hunting rifle. You really don't want the weight and size of a ~24X+ variable with target turrets on a deer rifle.

On the other hand, a good 3x9 of 4x12 would work for fun shooting at steel at 1000 yards, again provided you have a tapered base to get the elevation range required. More of a challenge than a ~24X+ variable with target turrets, but not impossible. Again, I have shot at 1000 yards with a 3.5x WW2-era Soviet PU on a Mosin Nagant sniper rifle, and I guarantee you even the bottom of the line Vortex has better glass.

I have a Leupold on my LR rig, (the earlier generation of this one), and it is fine for 1000 yards, I also have a Vortex Crossfire, the lower cost version of the scope I linked above, and the glass isn't quite as good, but still pretty good, and both track perfectly.

You don't HAVE TO HAVE a $1000 scope or rifle to shoot 1000 yards.
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Old March 4, 2018, 02:23 PM   #24
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That was a point I tried to make...
People don't pack around heavy bench rifles to hunt, hunting rifles don't shoot 1,000 yds every day.
Shooting paper targets or steel at known ranges don't need 100 gadgets built into or etched in the reticle.

The MOST important thing is good glass, ground properly & mounted in adjustment mechanicals that are dead nut CONSISTENT.
This requires a maker that knows what they are doing, so the older manufacturers usually do a better job.
Keep in mind they have the ability, the equipment already, so they are often less expensive while providing an optic that does the job for decades.

As for rifles, folks were shooting 1,000 yds way before the current crop of 'High Tech' offerings of today.
Guys shot CONSISTENTLY with actions made before WWI, the old ways of chambering & finishing barrels still work today, it doesn't take $12 million in CNC machine to make a good barrel.
Pillars & bedding still work on even the oldest & poor quality wood stocks, while synthetic stocks simply aren't that expensive, and the same rules for pillars & bedding still apply if you don't like the way it shoots.

I've pulled common rifles off the rack and shot 600 yards without much more than adjusting the trigger & mounting optics. In a proper caliber (not .223 for instance) it wouldn't have taken much more to do 1,000 yds.
Other rifles come off the shelf so loose and poorly fitted I wouldn't have thought them safe to fire.
Commercial offerings are not created equal, take your time to check out the rifle you intend to buy.
Loose bolts, gritty triggers, I'll fitting parts don't get better with use and don't heal themselves, so try to find a well fitted offering up front. Doesn't have to be expensive, just fitted well.

Simply sit down, make a list of what you actually NEED (leave out 'Wants' or 'Cool').
Reticle that suits your purpose, and nothing more.
Tube size that allows for adjustments in your perfered ranges.
A 1" tube is fine for 1,000 yd only, you simply adjust mounts for elevation to get you on target, saving your adjustment for fine tuning your aim point.

If you intend to do 100 to 1,000 yds, then you are going to need a HUGE TUBE size to accommodate the range of adjustment you will need. This drives price up and it's hard to find one that doesn't have a bunch of crap included in it, which drives price up even more.

APPLICATION, APPLICATION, APPLICATION!
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Old March 4, 2018, 03:09 PM   #25
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Great write up JeepHammer.
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