Brass prep priority?

[velocette]

In your opinion, what is the priority in brass preparation when seeking accurate reloads? Stated another way, what do you believe is the most important step down to the least important step in preparing your brass?

Case sizing?
Primer pocket cleaning, reaming?
Primer flash hole deburring?
Case length trim? (& to what + / - tolerance)
Case neck tension consistency?
Case weight segregation? (& to what tolerance)
Other?

[T. O'Heir]

None of those will affect hunting accuracy to any great degree. It is a good thing to have the cases all the same length, but for having consistent OAL's. That can affect accuracy a bit. Fiddling with the primer pocket cleanliness and flash hole just consumes time. Tumbling will clean the pocket and a burr of a flash hole will do nothing to fire.
Otherwise, consistency is the most important thing. Not necessarily the neck tension though. Not much you can do to make that any different from what the sizer does. Case weight consistency isn't terribly important to anybody but the bench rest guys.

[AllenJ]

Agree with Mr. Ohair, unless you have an ultra accurate bench rifle you're not going to see a big difference with any of those.

[Unclenick]

Depends on the gun and the load. My first M1A barrel shot 10 shots into 0.75" off the bench at 100 yards with tuned loads of most stick powders in the appropriate burn rate range, pushing 168 grain MatchKings. I'd tried deburring flash holes in the cases, but found that step made no measurable difference to my groups with those powders. Then, one year I tried a spherical powder, Accurate 2520, and the best tuned load I could find only shot about 1.25" at 100". Then, on a whim, I decided to again try the previously useless technique of deburring flash holes. Groups immediately shrank to 0.75" like those of the other powders.

So, is deburring flash holes a waste of time? Well, it just depends what else is in the mix. For me, usually it's a waste of time, but just not always. The reasons it mattered in that case were several. One is that charge didn't fill the case well, leaving a lot of empty space for the primer to bring up to start pressure. Also, like most older spherical powder formulations, that one was harder to ignite than the single-base stick powders I usually used then. Back then I was blissfully ignorant of slamfire potential and was using a mild primer. Based on what I've learned since about spherical powders and empty space in a case, I suspect changing to a magnum primer might have made the same group size improvement. Nonetheless, the experiment did show that deburring flash holes or buying expensive cases that don't have flash hole burrs in the first place really does affect ignition consistency.

In the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, one of the authors reported an analogous situation with a 300 WM rifle. It shot, I think, 1.5 moa at best and no matter how he tuned the loads. Well, this fellow had tried outside neck turning on his other guns and found it made no measurable improvement in their group size. But, on a whim, he tried it with the 300 WM, and his group size dropped about in half. At least, that's what I remember. It was a big improvement, in any case.

So, what brass prep matters and what doesn't? You may have a gun and load combination that doesn't really benefit from it, you may have one that benefits considerably. Only you can figure that out.

I suggest you keep your cases trimmed. I suggest you keep case mouths cleaned out for consistent bullet pull. You can try sorting your most consistent case from your least consistent case and running the same load in both to see if you can tell a difference on target or not. There's just no predicting what your gun will care about until you find it.

[Reloadron]

Case sizing?
Primer pocket cleaning, reaming?
Primer flash hole deburring?
Case length trim? (& to what + / - tolerance)
Case neck tension consistency?
Case weight segregation? (& to what tolerance)
Other?

All of the above and none of the above. I agree in that it depends on the rifle. For my hunting rifles I really doubt it matters, however, for my target rifles it becomes all of the above. Generally speaking, without getting too OCD about it I stride for consistency. When loading what I expect to be accurate ammunition I sort by head stamp and with GI brass year. I want the same case volume case to case and I want the same neck tension case to case. Following case sizing I check each case, looking for identical dimensions.

Anyway, depending on your rifle your mileage may vary. You need to see what works best for you as was mentioned.

Ron

[rg1]

All the above with certain lots of brass. Some lots I've seen many with big burrs around the flash hole. Separating brass by weight may not show up but long range match shooting it will probably tighten groups.
Just me but I think case mouth deburring is critical. Case trimmers tend to roll a sharp edge on the inside of the neck and outside too. I don't like the common case mouth deburr tool. It doesn't clean up these sharp burrs and often leaves high spots. These rings left from trimming and not perfectly cleaned up does at least two things. One is it often scratches and shaves copper when seating bullets. Another, this can cause or make worse bullet seating concentricity. I highly recommend using a VLD inside case mouth deburr tool which will totally remove the rolled up material inside the neck. Also totally removing the raised metal on the outside the neck keeps the cartridges lying in the chamber the same. I really believe that the best thing case neck turning does is to remove this case trimmer raised burr. Don't want to remove too much of the case mouth and leave a thinned or sharpened case mouth.

[hooligan1]

Everything I do in brass prep adds to my confidence in my handloads.
It doesn't matter to me what ted and John do, that's their business.
When I shoulder any one of my rifles and there's game in my scope all the work I did at the handloading bench pays right there in confidence, so if you don't think a hunting rifle deserves the finest ammo you can produce, that's your loss not mine.

[firewrench044]

All of the above, hunting and target
I also anneal all cases every time they are fired

I have never had a rifle that these steps did not help
with accuracy

Most noticeable at 200 yards and farther

[Panfisher]

I would agree with some others in that all are important. However I would think that consistency in all steps is even more important. If we're trying for accurate target shooting I would likely make sure that every case was prepped exactly the same, such as trimmed to same length every time, sized the same every time etc. I end up doing a lot of that for hunting ammo, will it make any noticeable difference to my hunting accuracy, nope, BUT, I enjoy the process and kind of like being a little OCD when reloading.

[JeepHammer]

I'd have to say the ORDER you do things in would matter most...
I keep seeing guys say they clean, trim, then punch primers/size...
Why clean with a dead primer in the hole keeping crud in place,
Why trim BEFORE you push the case walls/shoulder back where they belong changing your length?

I punch primers so the pocket gets cleaned.
I clean.
I anneal. No sense stuffing a hard brass into a sizing die if you don't have too...
Annealing first gives your die/press a better chance of getting the sizing you are looking for...
I size, either one or two steps, depending on what the brass will be loaded for.
I trim for length.
I polish/treat if nessary. (Some people don't like the annealing color change, others like super shinny brass, some need treatment for longer storage)
I load, box and eventually shoot...

My primer pocket uniformer hits the brass in the sizing die, the first time its reloaded only.
If the primer is already gone for cleaning, that makes the primer drop in the press obsolete, and you can do another function in its place while the brass is securely held still/square by the sizing die...

I'm not a big fan of backtracking/do overs, so I try to think it through.

[briandg]

Obviously not an expert at precision reloading. I believe that case concentricity is probably the most important thing after a good ignition. Get the flash holes uniform. It allows the flame to be consistent round to round. Neck size only, without any variations from one to the other.

Check case concentricity and runout, trim cases to perfectly match, maybe turn them to consistent roundness.

I believe that getting the bullet into the leads without any tilt will be a very helpful thing, and once you are certain that your flame is consistent, that seems to be as far as your actual load and ignition will affect the accuracy, I think that the rest of it is going to involve getting your cases formed as consistently as possible.

Obviously sort cases by weight and take any other precautions to allow that charge to burn properly.

If your cases vary in length, vary in weight, vary in this and that, no matter what the bullet and charge is, the variables at the front end and through out the entire length of the case will cause variations in pressures, bore entry, and so forth.

Cleaning should probably be your last priority. dirty brass isn't important.

The thing to keep in mind that once you have good, properly sized brass, a good load, good bullets, etc, in other words, a properly prepared load of good pedigree, that is probably 80-90% of what you can do. Turning and truing brass, weighing bullets, reaming necks, etc, all of the little picky things that benchrest shooters do for ultimate accuracy are going to be of minimal use. Without a chamber that is properly indexed to the bore, absolutely fitted to the case, etc, creating bench rest grade ammo isn't going to do much good, and won't even be noticeable in a typical hunting rifle, without a precision chamber and barrel, no amount of precision handling of that brass is going to give any obvious results at only average distances. Take it out to 500 or farther, sure, there will be measurable differences with many of the very picky little tuning efforts.

I used to even weigh my bullets. I tweaked charges, weighed cases, trimmed, went through numerous bullets, then I realized that is was just a foolish waste of time, shooting with a four power scope through a stock rifle. In fact, it was hard to actually find a difference from trip to trip between my own "precision" loads and factory remington, which were incredibly accurate in that particular rifle. I never managed to get below 1.5 to 1 moa at 100 yards. (we did not have a long range place to shoot off of a bench. Anything beyond 100 had to be fired at the mining wastes off of the roof of my car.

[briandg]

I would like to ask the experts, unless annealing is done with complete consistency, what benefit can be expected? If each round has a different amount of grip on the bullet, it's going to cause inconsistencies all throughout the firing process.

Brass is suppsed to be annealed when manufactured, right? Factory brass with a consistent hardness would, as far as I can see, provide better consistency than a man on his bench with a torch. I'd never be able to do at my bench a job as consistent as the factory brass is. Therefore, I'd not consider annealing to be a reliable way for myself to create better ammunition. when tried a lee collet die, i had to try annealing to get it to work. my annealing sucked, and just running it through the die gave me evidence that it sucked. I pitched the entire load of brass, tinkered with the collet dies, found no change in my groups, and gave them away to buy standard RCBS dies. Still got very little benefit in accuracy over the plain old lee hammer and die set. Pretty much no matter what nitpicky efforts I went beyond basic case prep and load development showed up in group size.

I checked groups with a caliper. Shooting five shot groups may have complicated issues.

[cw308]

My case prep is similar to JeepHammer. Just remember I'm only reloading 30 rounds. Shooting benchrest , bolt action Rem 700 308 cal. Load one round at a time. Starts from here. I clean each round fired , neck & shoulder with 0000 steel wool, helps spotting problems also slowed my shooting time. When I get home I deprime, wet tumble with stainless steel pins, l dont know how to anneal brass so I skipped that step. Lube inside case necks with Q-tip , lube body & outside neck with my fingers. Set up F/L sizer , size to .0015 case headspace. When all are sized , I trim to 2.010 Cutter is set at that size. Chamfer inside & out. Back in the tumbler for 1 hour to remove the lube. I have a drill press with a 22 cal. brush with 0000 steel wool wrapped around the brush to polish to inside of the necks.I run a patch in the case to remove any dust. My pockets are uniformed at the first firing , run a #45 drill bit in the flash hole & deburr also first firing . use a RCBS ram primer to bottom & seat my primers. That's just about it for my case prep. Don't beat me up guys, remember I'm only doing 30 cases. Chris

[JeepHammer]

'Home' annealing is very rarely, to almost never, done correctly.
Most guys hang as high heat torch on the brass and look for a 'Color Change',
While some do use a 'Color Changing Temp Paint', that's usually used incorrectly also...

There seems to be some confusion about what is 'Hard' & what gets annealed, which leads to even more mistakes.

First off, most modern production doesn't anneal with flame anymore, virtually all manufacturers use electrical induction annealing.
Electrical Induction heats the brass very evenly, all the way through,
Where external flame annealing often overheats the outside of the case long before the 'Color Change Paint' on the inside of the neck (when used properly) finally changes color...

The head of the case is what metal workers call 'Half Hard', the shoulder/neck should be 'Dead Soft'.

What *Should* determine you bullet/neck tension/grip is the sizing of the neck.
When you start with a dead soft neck, its the interference fit between bullet & neck that determines tension.

Over size bullet, or under size neck will increase tension,
While under sized bullet or oversize neck will reduce tension.
Sizing your bullets & controlling neck resizing will get you consistant results.

Now, annealing ONCE at the factory, and annealing several times while reloading are two entirely different things...
The factory is looking to make the neck/shoulder 'Dead Soft' before final sizing/loading.
Overheating isn't a huge deal for them.

The 'Home' annealer should probably take care NOT to cook the alloys out of the brass, or burn off the trace minerals in the brass...
So, lower heat for a longer period of time will bring the ENTIRE neck up to temp, while giving you more control of that heating, making it harder to overheat the brass.

Smaller torches, and multiple torch heads (think small pen torch heads) and/or rotating the brass while annealing will get you a much more controlled anneal over a high heat 'Plumbers' torch.

Electrical annealing excites the molicules of the brass, making them rub together,
All at once, all the way through the brass,
So the brass heats VERY uniformly & evenly, and its very controllable, so you won't often ruin your brass.
Electrical annealers are expensive compaired to a couple 'Crack Pipe' torch heads and a bottle of butane or propane,
But they give excellent results...

[briandg]

he only thing that I suggest is that you get a flash hole uniformer and set aside the drill bit. The uniformer will chamfer the inner surface of the web. Other than that, your dedication to cleanliness and prep is quite admirable.

[Clark]

1) neck is not bent
2) shoulder is not pushed back too far
3) will fit in chamber
4) primer pocket is not loose
5) inside of case mouth will not scratch bullet
6) case neck will not reach end of chamber neck when firing pin pushes case forward
7) wet tumble for vanity

[boondocker385]

For my hunting loads (400 yards max) I make sure the cases are uniform (volume, length, etc). Never had a bad round.

For my long range rifle (in case i have to do what you paid Uncle Sam to teach me) all of those things and more.....same lot powders, bullets, primers, ultra picky on cases...

[Mobuck]

"I also anneal all cases every time they are fired"
"I anneal. No sense stuffing a hard brass into a sizing die if you don't have too."

I've been reloading for 50 years and have NEVER annealed a case. Even when destitute and forming 243 from 7.62x51, I didn't need to anneal(those cases lasted 2-3 loadings before most were lost in the snow). IMHO constant annealing ruins far more cases than it could possibly save. It's usually not even recommended at all except for drastic re-forming operations.

[overthere]

Of the ones you listed:

1. Case sizing?
2. Case neck tension consistency?

Use Lapua brass and you do not have to worry about these:
Primer pocket reaming?
Primer flash hole deburring?
Case weight segregation?

Do this on an as-needed basis:
Case length trim? (& to what + / - tolerance) - trim to keep under max length, mainly to avoid chambering issues. Do not trim crazy short but variances of +/- 5 thousands do not matter.

Do this if it makes you feel better:
Primer pocket cleaning?

[JeepHammer]

I don't anneal common range brass but once, the first time around to make sure I have a base line 'Dead Soft' shoulder/neck to start with.
Same with primer pocket uniforming de-crimping and flash hole drilling, if nessary.
Common practice/range brass is fine for smacking the occasional ground hog or coyote, and keeping my shooting skills from decreasing from anything but age...
(Getting old sucks)

My long range brass gets annealed every time around, simply because I'm set up for it.

Some people do, some people don't, its up to you.
Simply making the point annealing is done incorrectly much of the time, brass getting grossly overheated/damaged.

[cw308]

briandg
I use a flash hole uniformer, doesn't that only remove the rough edges. I use a#45 drill bit when I found some flash holes were smaller on some brass. I don't want to enlarge the flash hole larger then normal, just want them to all be the same size. I read someplace it should be .080

[T. O'Heir]

There's absolutely no need to anneal all cases every time they are fired. Does nothing to cases that are not work hardened. And no case gets work hardened with one shot. Work hardening comes from repeated sizing and firing.
"...'Home' annealing is very rarely, to almost never, done correctly..." Yep. Usually far too hot. As in red hot is too hot. Colour change is enough. A regular propane torch will do nicely for that.
"...Getting old sucks..." Absolutely. snicker.

[briandg]

Cw308, a flash hole uniformer is unlike a pocket uniformer.

The flash hole is punched outside. in, and with the quality of modern tools, that flash hole should be punched clean, round, perfectly Fla and clean,centered. Aint always true.

The flash hole uniformer cuts a consistent hole through it and chamfers the inside to eliminate any roughness from the punching. It is a good idea for any rifle use at longer ranges. It will allow ignition to be more uniform if the brass wasn't good enough.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/729...uniformer-tool

[cw308]

briandg
Thanks for get back to me. I have the RCBS flash hole uniformer, it only bevel's off the burr, the post just centers on the flash hole, doesn't cut the hole if flash hole is smaller. I have found some brass with smaller flash holes. I use the #45 drill bit only to keep my brass uniform. What the saying " If it doesn't fit , you must accquit " l would rather use the 45 . Drill bit that is.
PS Just read another post by you. Hope all that blood work is behind you & All is Well.
Till the next time, Be Well Chris

[Longshot4]

I have been reloading for the best hunting accuracy and target accuracy in stock rifles and pistols for a few decades. So let it be known. I'm self taught and no expert. Also Firing Line Forums are the best thing that has ever happened to my Loading Room.

I de burr my new case flash holes simply for consistency. I have found flash holes in my standard cases are any thing but constant in burrs or hole size.

I more recently discovered Redding flash hole uniformer. I use it on all my new and old primer pockets one time. It allows the primers to seat to proper depth with constant tension.

I tried annealing my rifle cases last year for the first time. I had seen a clear difference on old cases. I will continue on cases when my groups need it.

I haven't turned necks yet but perhaps some day I will. I have seen in the past that my .308 cases had necks that were in need of it after trimming. Although I have been loading my 222 and 22 K Hornet lately and I don't see the need to turn necks on them.

I always keep my brass in lots. I will also sort it by weight.

I have found the bump sizing method is helpful for sizing.


That's all for now.