Home defense question, Shooting through doors??? - Page 2

Sir William · November 4, 2005, 09:47 PM

About 20 years ago I was dispatched to a welfare check. Most LEOs know these usually mean a medical emergency or coroners case. The caller was not sure of the number but, Mr Jones on Smith Street had not been seen for a few days. I arrived on Smith Street and found a The Jones" sign on a mailbox with my spotlight. I hit the siren at 2 AM figuring I would alert the neighbourhood that a police prowl was there. I left my overheads on too and the spotlight and alley lights on the entry. I banged with my Kel-Lite on the entry door. No answer. I went around the house banging and knocking on the fence and shouting. No answer. I radioed that I was making entry. I kicked the entry door in and stepped inside with my Kel-Lite. A woman screamed and there was Mr. Jones with a Louisville Slugger. He asked what I wanted. I told him. He informed me that I wanted old Mr. Jones, in the next block. I apologized and told him the city would cover the damages. The other Mr. Jones had been dead for two days. The odds of two Jones' on the same street were not high. The younger Mr. Jones got a new entry door. Mistakes just happen.

bjmanersr · November 5, 2005, 06:09 PM

But having said that;if they are breaking the door down after a verbal warning;SHOOT,

bedula32 · November 5, 2005, 06:22 PM

This all depends on the state laws like anything else. In Colorado you can even shoot through the front door if the crook is outside trying to break in and you are reasonably in fear for your life. If they are already in the house you don't have to cook them dinner either. If I felt my life was in danger and I felt that shooting through the door was advantagious to my getting through the situation then I'd shoot through the door ina heartbeat. How do you know they aren't about to start shooting through the door? How do you know they aren't starting to burn your house down, and you, on the other side of that door?

XavierBreath · November 5, 2005, 07:32 PM

Once again, it isn't a question of whether it is legal to shoot through a door. If your life is in jeopardy from a threat on the other side of the door, it is certainly legal in any state. Whether the threat can be considered reasonable is arguable, but that is not the point. This is not a question of whether it is legal to shoot through doors, but whether it is PRUDENT.

Lets suppose you see an escaped convict you have identified from TV, say that guy from Texas that's on the run..........Charles Thompson, outside your front door with a sawed off shotgun, and an axe. You see him from an upstairs window. He rings your doorbell, and then proceeds to chop into your front door.
Suppose you cannot hold your fire, and take up a defensive position. The fear is just to much for you and you have to address it right now before your head explodes.
You run down the stairs.
You shoot at Mr. Thompson through the door.
Unfortunately, Deputy Marsh has just arrived, and is trying to subdue Thompson outside your door. You do not know this because they are banging into your door as they struggle. You shoot through the door with your Uber Home Protector Whiz Bang Get'em Gun. You take the top of Deputy Marsh's skull off. Mr. Thompson gives up the fight and runs away.
Enjoy Deputy Marsh's funeral, he did not deserve it.

That is why you hold your fire and identify your target before pulling the trigger. This is just one possibility, there are many others. Responsible shooters know what they are shooting at.

Dwight55 · November 5, 2005, 08:54 PM

+1 Xavier

May God bless,
Dwight

bedula32 · November 5, 2005, 09:58 PM

You can come up with countless scenarios, as you even stated, where you mix coincidence and bad luck enough to make any use of deadly force unjustifiably dangerous to potential innocents who happen to end up in the line of fire. The above scenario is about as reasonable as arguing that if you wait until the guy breaks the door in and you get him in your sights then you still better not shoot because you never know if a wayward skydiver might crash through the roof and land immediately between you and the crook just as you pull the trigger. Now you've killed an innocent you dastardly irresponsible gun-nut. How are you going to explain that to the skydiver's family? Why couldn't you wait until the crook was within 12 inches of you and use glasers to reduce the odds of any over-penetration. Hell, better just use a baseball bat or a knife or bad language. And what if you got a home invasion happening and while you stand there waiting for the guy or guys who are kicking in your front door to actually get in before you shoot at them you got half a dozen other guys looking for other entrances into your home too. Maybe while I am sitting there waiting for crook A to finish getting in crook B, who came in the garage entrance, walks up behind me and blows my head off. Sorry Deputy but this is MY HOUSE and you knew I might need to be defending it this evening you came and got into a struggle in front of it. If you can't handle that then don't do that job.

It is a real shame when someone acts on a good faith belief that they are protecting themselves and ends up harming someone else. It is called a tragedy and tragedies happen. Just as the deputy may fire at the crook to protect himself and a stray bullet hits me. If I know you are trying to bust in my house I see no reason to gamble my life on the very slight chance that you may not have bad intentions or that maybe, gee golly just maybe, you got beamed up by the mothership and someone innocent got beamed down in your place. A lot of folks have gambled their lives and lost giving someone else the benefit of the doubt when they should not have. If you are busting my door in and you are legitimate you better damn well make that known or you are going to be dodging bullets and I will feel bad about it later but I will be consoled knowing that I acted to defend my life. This is exactly why search warrants, for example, are typically not served at night when possible - too many people making reasonable claims that they would not expect the cops to come charging in late at night and assumed it was a criminal so they opened fire.

If you are this paranoid about possibly injuring an innocent party perhaps you should refrain from having a gun and use a baseball bat or a knife for home defense. There is ALWAYS a chance, no matter how good a shot you are, that you will miss or the bullet over-penetrate and hit someone innocent. Next someone will ask if it is reasonable to shoot someone who is charging at you threatening to cut your head off and wielding a machete if you have not first gotten a full psychiatric evaluation on them in triplicate to make sure they aren't just foolin' with you.

XavierBreath · November 5, 2005, 10:48 PM

Bedula32.
I will not address your sarcastic remarks except to say that ten years after the fact I still attend a support group for those who have taken human life. Our group is comprised of law enforcement, civilian, men, women, black and white. Our stories are sometimes justified, sometimes not. The one common thread we share is we have been there and do not want to be there again. If we are ever there again, our responses will be different and individual, but we know ahead of time what they will be.

I said in another thread that it is silly to try to teach a pig to sing, and I suppose I should listen to my own advice. If you want to go shooting through doors, go ahead. Take the risk. Waste some ammo on unaimed shooting in a desperate situation. Oh, I forgot, you were aiming weren't you? At the DOOR. After you have peppered the door with your gun, and are slamming in a new magazine and the threat is still there because you are shooting inanimate objects rather than threats, you can start to wonder how many rounds you have left.

I have five 00Buck rounds in the magazine of my shotgun, and 6 in the sidesaddle. In a home invasion I am likely to have three or more threats to deal with. It's a simple question of division. I do not have ammo to waste shooting up the woodwork.

I am not saying to not defend yourself and your family. I am saying to do it intelligently. Argue if you want. Stick a fork in me. I'm done..

Mikeyboy · November 5, 2005, 11:32 PM

I'm assuming in your situation, it is hard to say the guy on the other side of the gun is a friendly. You got your family into a bedroom and locked the door, and someone is banging on the door trying to break it in. Definately, this is a bad guy. Legally the guy is tresspasing in your home in an attempt to do you harm. You have all rights to shoot him. Now my thought is what are you shooting and what type of door you got. Prime example, I have a taurus pt92 9mm with a 17 round clip, my interior doors are either the hollow plywood or plastic foam filled, after a verbal warning and making sure the good guys are behind me, I see no problem with shooting off a round or two and hope for the best. Now lets say you have solid wood doors, lets say you only have a .22 or lets say you only have a few rounds. I would wait until he breeches the door.

Gastonite · November 9, 2005, 05:52 PM

If my family is safely accounted for in our bedroom and there is a threat on the other side of that door that has indicated they plan on coming in, while yelling expletives, I will gladly take a well placed shot thru that door at where I believe the intruder to be.

I keep both a Winchester 1300 Defender and Romanian SAR 1 in the bedroom with plenty of ammo for each, so expending a few rounds will not leave me empty. However, there is a good chance they will either drop dead, be wounded, or run like he!!. Also, I will be fully within my rights here in Washington State with plenty of family 'witnesses' to vouch that we feared for our lives. And really, if they have committed to trying to break down your bedroom door, you should be in fear for your life.

michael t · November 9, 2005, 07:44 PM

I will say the only story the sheriff is going to hear is mine and my wifes and then we will discuss his up coming relection and campain expenses.

tipoc · November 9, 2005, 08:18 PM

I'll add my $.02.

It's useful to think through various scenarios in advance of trouble but it's also useful to keep the possibilities simple. We could speculate all kinds of scenarios for 10 pages and still miss something. Keep the 4 basic principals in mind and use them.

Xavier is in general correct. Particularly in his initial posts.

Identify your target and know what's behind it before shooting. This is more than just a good idea. You want your shots to hit what they should and not go flying through the neighbors window or through a sheet rock wall. When you choose a place in advance to take a defensive stand, like a particular bedroom, this ought to be part of the thinking. Where will any shots fired go? This also affects ammo selection.

Have good steel security doors installed. The type that let you keep your front door open on hot days but will take a battering ram to get through and keep them locked.

If you and your rowdy friends are watching a football game or have the music cranked up you may not hear the phone, doorbell, a shout from a cop or a neighbor looking for a runaway cat. Identify your target.

In all 50 states and most countries ,far as I know, one can use what force is necessay to stop an attacker from injuring yourself or another inside your home. Shooting someone is not the only option I have in my home to stop a deadly assault.

"But tipoc what would you do in x,y,z situation?" I'd use the most powerful weapon I have, my poor brain, first to figure out what was up, the relationship of forces, and proceed from there.

tipoc

jacz · November 9, 2005, 08:34 PM

If someone puts a hole in the door and is waving a gun around, I am going to put several more holes in the door. Especially if my family is in there.

Tonyny · November 9, 2005, 09:10 PM

Bedula32 wrote....

"If you are this paranoid about possibly injuring an innocent party perhaps you should refrain from having a gun and use a baseball bat or a knife for home defense. There is ALWAYS a chance, no matter how good a shot you are, that you will miss or the bullet over-penetrate and hit someone innocent. Next someone will ask if it is reasonable to shoot someone who is charging at you threatening to cut your head off and wielding a machete if you have not first gotten a full psychiatric evaluation on them in triplicate to make sure they aren't just foolin' with you. "

You are a breath of fresh air......

Like someone else mentioned if someone pokes a hole in my door and sticks a gun through it I'm not gonna conduct an INTERVIEW with the perp to discuss his "visit"

tipoc · November 9, 2005, 10:57 PM

The folks most likely to break your door down will be cops.

Refer to relationship of forces.

tipoc

Rivers · November 9, 2005, 11:07 PM

Once again, we find someone expounding authoritatively in a thread on a subject about which he knows very little and offers shallow, ill-thought-out analogies.

Given the parameters posed by the threadstarter, of course you'd shoot through the door. There's a big difference in shooting through a door because one hears noises on the other side and shooting through a door when somebody's trying to break the door down.

Of course, you shoot, if somebody's beaten the door to the extent that they make a hole in the door. Suggesting that one should always "see a face" in such a situation prior to shooting is childish and simplistic.

Use common sense. Don't live in jurisdictions run by pansies. Protect yourself and your family. Talk to a real lawyer, judge, or district attorney who practices in your jurisdiction.

RsqVet · November 10, 2005, 12:36 AM

Rivers ---

you are right on the money --- this situation is an attempted breach of an INTERIOR door --- that has two important points --- 1. You are already fullly or near fully near "weapons free" in any state 2. The door material unless you have made it strfonger than most is not going to be very sturdy so it a. will not hold back a perp for long -- hence you are in immediate danger and b. it will allow pretty good shoot through with any repectable defense caliber --- any one who questions this is invited to the range with the interior door of their choice from the depot.

Xaiver --- someone has to say it, get real, I mean I have to respect your desire for safety and so on, frankly I'd much rather have that than a shoot em up attitude but at the end of the day what the heck do you really think you are going to do and what do you think is reasonable? Any one of these situations is a crap situation to be in -- -we are talking about someone breaking a door down, not fumbeling, not noise --- breaking in, to an interior door!!

As to the suggestion of manualy disarming a perp who has his hand through the door BAD IDEA -- I would never chose to go "hands on" if I could avoid it -- THINK for a dam second that perp might be on crack, meth, PCP --- real strong, ready to fire willy milly or if you get ina wreseling match what you gona grab? The door knob? One of though auto unlock ones like most interior doors have? Again you just put yourslef in a deeper pile of the crap. Striking anyone with a long arm is't the greatest of ides at all unless you are out of things to make it go bang --- for one thing it requires and akward grip and the long arm is a long lever that could give the BG leverage in a fight, for another the thought gives me great concern over what my muzzle will be poited at and frankly there ain't a firearm out there that I trust it's safeties enough to be actually at or in any way near the muzzle end when the weapon is subjected to the force of being used as a bat.

Sorry it's not cut and dry and yes caution and prudance are dictated as always --- and there are a thousand questions that will be situation dependant --- how loud and furios is the beatign of said door and so foth but you can not catagoricly state no-shoot or rekless to do so --- especally if the BG has breached and presented a weapon --- gosh the very idea is almost comical.

tipoc · November 10, 2005, 08:21 PM

It's always interesting when folks take hypothetical discussions so seriously as to be rude to another poster. Always a sign of maturity and class. Like when we were kids and debated whether Batman could take Daredevil with as much enthusiasm and usually with about as much thought, or looking at some posts, maybe less. Those discussions were at least fun.

What would you do if a maniac is chopping down the door? Jeez I don't know.

What would you do if someones peeping in the window? Shoot em say some. The only folk to ever peep in my windows have been cops coming to serve a warrant. I strongly advise against shooting at cops.

Would you shoot through a door or wall? Depends.

One fella said that to defend himself and his family he'd shoot blindly through a door and wouldn't worry to much where his stray shots went. He plans on missing obviously. I hope I'm never anywhere in his vacinity if a gunfight breaks out. He's as likely to shoot friend as foe.

Well one can speculate all day. I'd rather go shoot and I'll identify my target and try to know where my shots go. I'm responsible for them after all.

tipoc

cas · November 10, 2005, 10:03 PM

" 2) They have put a hole in the door and are waving a gun around demanding we open it."

Then you don't shoot through the door, you shoot through the hole!

Bravo25 · November 11, 2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Enjoy Deputy Marsh's funeral, he did not deserve it.

Or enjoy your own, because as you stated you didn't know. It could be what it seems, or the deputy could already be dead.

The bottom line is this, there is no bottom line. No cookie cutter answer. No cut, and dried reaction. Every situation is different, and every response is going to be different. If this ever happens to you the last thing you are going to mentally review are the state statues, and what the pending result might be if you act inappropiately.

You hold off firing until "you" feel that you can longer do so without violating the safety of your family. Then you protect your family.

Varmint Eviscerator · November 11, 2005, 12:55 PM

either throw something at the bg, or take a bb gun or a very very very low powered weapon(blow gun sling shot) and hit his hand or the gun, or shoot the fram or top of the door, away from where it is possibleto hurt the bg, close enough to scare the crap out of him!
Chase

RsqVet · November 11, 2005, 05:44 PM

"either throw something at the bg, or take a bb gun or a very very very low powered weapon(blow gun sling shot) and hit his hand or the gun, or shoot the fram or top of the door, away from where it is possibleto hurt the bg, close enough to scare the crap out of him!
Chase"

OH MY GOD NO! NO! NO!; You DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT fire warning shots to "scare the crap out of the him" you will be eaten alive by the police, the local DA and the BG's or his family's lawers, firearms are lethal force, their use is an all or nothing thing, you can not be a "little pregnant" Either the situation is justifiable hommicide --- i.e. the laws of the land say you are justified in killing the other person due to their actions or you are not, any discharge of a firearm will be looked at as such --- attempting to kill the person, trying to aruge otherwise will only result in failure and sad legal ramifications for the misinformed, please look into this as it's a relativly common misconception perhaps generated by old western shows or some crap like that.

Again, for the record think about this -- BG in house, with weapon, weapon presented and pointed in your direction ---- I personally don't care how wildly or incoherently the presentation of the wepon is --- even a blind squrrel sometimes finds a nut --- I will not wait for that to happen to me and the combination of being in my house, unwelcome, and pointing a weapon at me or my family makes it a clear cut shoot situation, I will localize his position based on where the hand is comming through and I will fire for effect, knoing my interior doors are not substantally constructed and that there will be significant penetration of this barrier by my weapon as evidanced by tests ammo lab and others have conducted aginst cars and so forth.

cas · November 11, 2005, 07:36 PM

No no... you take an electric BBQ starter and plug it in and hang it on the door knob. Or you take a gallon can of paint and hang it on a string...

PAINTRAIN · November 11, 2005, 09:20 PM

It's just common sense. Daredevil would win.

XavierBreath · November 29, 2005, 12:05 PM

I saw this article and remembered this thread........smilies added are mine

Resident fired gun through front door to scare men, brother says

By Kathleen Baydala
[email protected]

A Jackson man who shot through his front door at a suspected house burglar early Sunday morning never intended to kill him, a relative said.

But Marcus Rawls, 23, of Jackson was found dead on the porch at 4:36 a.m. wearing a ski mask and gloves, officials said.

Tory Willis said his brother, Cedric Marshall, was shaken up after learning he had fatally shot a man at 464 Willaman St.

"He was trying to protect himself," said Willis, 23. "He wasn't trying to kill anybody."

Jackson Police Department Detective Brendon Bell said police had not charged the shooter as of Sunday night.

Bell would neither identify nor confirm the shooter described as "an occupant of the house," but Willis identified his brother as the shooter.

Marshall could not be reached. But during an interview at the home Sunday afternoon, Willis described what happened.

Willis said his brother told him two men he didn't know knocked on his door at 2 a.m. Sunday. And when Marshall didn't answer, the men tried to kick down his door, so he fired shots to scare the men off. Thinking he had done so, he went to bed, Willis said.

A few hours later, Marshall's cousin drove by the house and called Marshall when he saw a man lying on the porch, Willis said.

Rawls died from a gunshot wound to the head, said Hinds County Coroner Sharon Grisham-Stewart.

"Right now the case has to be prepared and presented to the grand jury," Bell said. The grand jury will determine whether the shooting was justifiable.

Bell could not confirm whether there was a second potential burglar.

Many of the surrounding neighbors on Willaman Street said the neighborhood is usually quiet except for a recent string of break-ins.

Precinct 2 Commander Lee Vance said there has been criminal activity in that area in the recent past.

"I would not say house burglaries are any more prevalant there than in other places," Vance said.

Tonyny · November 29, 2005, 11:07 PM

tipoc
Member

Join Date: 12-11-2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 75 The folks most likely to break your door down will be cops.

Refer to relationship of forces.

tipoc

Since I'm not smelling any smoke nor do I have any warrants out on me they better ANNOUNCE who they are and RESEMBLE cops or they're getting a LEAD greeting. Simple.

November 5, 2005, 06:09 PM	#27
bjmanersr Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Tennessee by way of AL. Posts: 161	You have to identift your target But having said that;if they are breaking the door down after a verbal warning;SHOOT, __________________ B J Maner sr

November 5, 2005, 07:32 PM	#29
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	Once again, it isn't a question of whether it is legal to shoot through a door. If your life is in jeopardy from a threat on the other side of the door, it is certainly legal in any state. Whether the threat can be considered reasonable is arguable, but that is not the point. This is not a question of whether it is legal to shoot through doors, but whether it is PRUDENT. Lets suppose you see an escaped convict you have identified from TV, say that guy from Texas that's on the run..........Charles Thompson, outside your front door with a sawed off shotgun, and an axe. You see him from an upstairs window. He rings your doorbell, and then proceeds to chop into your front door. Suppose you cannot hold your fire, and take up a defensive position. The fear is just to much for you and you have to address it right now before your head explodes. You run down the stairs. You shoot at Mr. Thompson through the door. Unfortunately, Deputy Marsh has just arrived, and is trying to subdue Thompson outside your door. You do not know this because they are banging into your door as they struggle. You shoot through the door with your Uber Home Protector Whiz Bang Get'em Gun. You take the top of Deputy Marsh's skull off. Mr. Thompson gives up the fight and runs away. Enjoy Deputy Marsh's funeral, he did not deserve it. That is why you hold your fire and identify your target before pulling the trigger. This is just one possibility, there are many others. Responsible shooters know what they are shooting at. __________________ Xavier's Blog

November 5, 2005, 08:54 PM	#30
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	+1 Xavier May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

November 5, 2005, 10:48 PM	#32
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	Bedula32. I will not address your sarcastic remarks except to say that ten years after the fact I still attend a support group for those who have taken human life. Our group is comprised of law enforcement, civilian, men, women, black and white. Our stories are sometimes justified, sometimes not. The one common thread we share is we have been there and do not want to be there again. If we are ever there again, our responses will be different and individual, but we know ahead of time what they will be. I said in another thread that it is silly to try to teach a pig to sing, and I suppose I should listen to my own advice. If you want to go shooting through doors, go ahead. Take the risk. Waste some ammo on unaimed shooting in a desperate situation. Oh, I forgot, you were aiming weren't you? At the DOOR. After you have peppered the door with your gun, and are slamming in a new magazine and the threat is still there because you are shooting inanimate objects rather than threats, you can start to wonder how many rounds you have left. I have five 00Buck rounds in the magazine of my shotgun, and 6 in the sidesaddle. In a home invasion I am likely to have three or more threats to deal with. It's a simple question of division. I do not have ammo to waste shooting up the woodwork. I am not saying to not defend yourself and your family. I am saying to do it intelligently. Argue if you want. Stick a fork in me. I'm done.. __________________ Xavier's Blog

November 9, 2005, 05:52 PM	#34
Gastonite Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 34	If my family is safely accounted for in our bedroom and there is a threat on the other side of that door that has indicated they plan on coming in, while yelling expletives, I will gladly take a well placed shot thru that door at where I believe the intruder to be. I keep both a Winchester 1300 Defender and Romanian SAR 1 in the bedroom with plenty of ammo for each, so expending a few rounds will not leave me empty. However, there is a good chance they will either drop dead, be wounded, or run like he!!. Also, I will be fully within my rights here in Washington State with plenty of family 'witnesses' to vouch that we feared for our lives. And really, if they have committed to trying to break down your bedroom door, you should be in fear for your life. __________________ Combat Tupperware Collector

November 4, 2005, 09:47 PM	#26
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	About 20 years ago I was dispatched to a welfare check. Most LEOs know these usually mean a medical emergency or coroners case. The caller was not sure of the number but, Mr Jones on Smith Street had not been seen for a few days. I arrived on Smith Street and found a The Jones" sign on a mailbox with my spotlight. I hit the siren at 2 AM figuring I would alert the neighbourhood that a police prowl was there. I left my overheads on too and the spotlight and alley lights on the entry. I banged with my Kel-Lite on the entry door. No answer. I went around the house banging and knocking on the fence and shouting. No answer. I radioed that I was making entry. I kicked the entry door in and stepped inside with my Kel-Lite. A woman screamed and there was Mr. Jones with a Louisville Slugger. He asked what I wanted. I told him. He informed me that I wanted old Mr. Jones, in the next block. I apologized and told him the city would cover the damages. The other Mr. Jones had been dead for two days. The odds of two Jones' on the same street were not high. The younger Mr. Jones got a new entry door. Mistakes just happen.

November 5, 2005, 06:22 PM	#28
bedula32 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2005 Posts: 229	This all depends on the state laws like anything else. In Colorado you can even shoot through the front door if the crook is outside trying to break in and you are reasonably in fear for your life. If they are already in the house you don't have to cook them dinner either. If I felt my life was in danger and I felt that shooting through the door was advantagious to my getting through the situation then I'd shoot through the door ina heartbeat. How do you know they aren't about to start shooting through the door? How do you know they aren't starting to burn your house down, and you, on the other side of that door?

November 5, 2005, 09:58 PM	#31
bedula32 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2005 Posts: 229	You can come up with countless scenarios, as you even stated, where you mix coincidence and bad luck enough to make any use of deadly force unjustifiably dangerous to potential innocents who happen to end up in the line of fire. The above scenario is about as reasonable as arguing that if you wait until the guy breaks the door in and you get him in your sights then you still better not shoot because you never know if a wayward skydiver might crash through the roof and land immediately between you and the crook just as you pull the trigger. Now you've killed an innocent you dastardly irresponsible gun-nut. How are you going to explain that to the skydiver's family? Why couldn't you wait until the crook was within 12 inches of you and use glasers to reduce the odds of any over-penetration. Hell, better just use a baseball bat or a knife or bad language. And what if you got a home invasion happening and while you stand there waiting for the guy or guys who are kicking in your front door to actually get in before you shoot at them you got half a dozen other guys looking for other entrances into your home too. Maybe while I am sitting there waiting for crook A to finish getting in crook B, who came in the garage entrance, walks up behind me and blows my head off. Sorry Deputy but this is MY HOUSE and you knew I might need to be defending it this evening you came and got into a struggle in front of it. If you can't handle that then don't do that job. It is a real shame when someone acts on a good faith belief that they are protecting themselves and ends up harming someone else. It is called a tragedy and tragedies happen. Just as the deputy may fire at the crook to protect himself and a stray bullet hits me. If I know you are trying to bust in my house I see no reason to gamble my life on the very slight chance that you may not have bad intentions or that maybe, gee golly just maybe, you got beamed up by the mothership and someone innocent got beamed down in your place. A lot of folks have gambled their lives and lost giving someone else the benefit of the doubt when they should not have. If you are busting my door in and you are legitimate you better damn well make that known or you are going to be dodging bullets and I will feel bad about it later but I will be consoled knowing that I acted to defend my life. This is exactly why search warrants, for example, are typically not served at night when possible - too many people making reasonable claims that they would not expect the cops to come charging in late at night and assumed it was a criminal so they opened fire. If you are this paranoid about possibly injuring an innocent party perhaps you should refrain from having a gun and use a baseball bat or a knife for home defense. There is ALWAYS a chance, no matter how good a shot you are, that you will miss or the bullet over-penetrate and hit someone innocent. Next someone will ask if it is reasonable to shoot someone who is charging at you threatening to cut your head off and wielding a machete if you have not first gotten a full psychiatric evaluation on them in triplicate to make sure they aren't just foolin' with you.

November 5, 2005, 11:32 PM	#33
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	I'm assuming in your situation, it is hard to say the guy on the other side of the gun is a friendly. You got your family into a bedroom and locked the door, and someone is banging on the door trying to break it in. Definately, this is a bad guy. Legally the guy is tresspasing in your home in an attempt to do you harm. You have all rights to shoot him. Now my thought is what are you shooting and what type of door you got. Prime example, I have a taurus pt92 9mm with a 17 round clip, my interior doors are either the hollow plywood or plastic foam filled, after a verbal warning and making sure the good guys are behind me, I see no problem with shooting off a round or two and hope for the best. Now lets say you have solid wood doors, lets say you only have a .22 or lets say you only have a few rounds. I would wait until he breeches the door.

November 9, 2005, 07:44 PM	#35
michael t Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Out back Ky Posts: 4,044	I will say the only story the sheriff is going to hear is mine and my wifes and then we will discuss his up coming relection and campain expenses. __________________ Certified Armed Infidel Colt Defender ,Colt Mustang ,Dan Wesson CBOB, PPK/S, American Classic 1911,Bersa Thunder 380 http://bersachat.comHome of Bersa http://www.metroarms1911forum.com

November 9, 2005, 08:18 PM	#36
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	I'll add my $.02. It's useful to think through various scenarios in advance of trouble but it's also useful to keep the possibilities simple. We could speculate all kinds of scenarios for 10 pages and still miss something. Keep the 4 basic principals in mind and use them. Xavier is in general correct. Particularly in his initial posts. Identify your target and know what's behind it before shooting. This is more than just a good idea. You want your shots to hit what they should and not go flying through the neighbors window or through a sheet rock wall. When you choose a place in advance to take a defensive stand, like a particular bedroom, this ought to be part of the thinking. Where will any shots fired go? This also affects ammo selection. Have good steel security doors installed. The type that let you keep your front door open on hot days but will take a battering ram to get through and keep them locked. If you and your rowdy friends are watching a football game or have the music cranked up you may not hear the phone, doorbell, a shout from a cop or a neighbor looking for a runaway cat. Identify your target. In all 50 states and most countries ,far as I know, one can use what force is necessay to stop an attacker from injuring yourself or another inside your home. Shooting someone is not the only option I have in my home to stop a deadly assault. "But tipoc what would you do in x,y,z situation?" I'd use the most powerful weapon I have, my poor brain, first to figure out what was up, the relationship of forces, and proceed from there. tipoc

November 9, 2005, 08:34 PM	#37
jacz Member Join Date: August 11, 2005 Location: South Carolina Posts: 15	If someone puts a hole in the door and is waving a gun around, I am going to put several more holes in the door. Especially if my family is in there.

November 9, 2005, 09:10 PM	#38
Tonyny Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 35	paranoid Bedula32 wrote.... "If you are this paranoid about possibly injuring an innocent party perhaps you should refrain from having a gun and use a baseball bat or a knife for home defense. There is ALWAYS a chance, no matter how good a shot you are, that you will miss or the bullet over-penetrate and hit someone innocent. Next someone will ask if it is reasonable to shoot someone who is charging at you threatening to cut your head off and wielding a machete if you have not first gotten a full psychiatric evaluation on them in triplicate to make sure they aren't just foolin' with you. " You are a breath of fresh air...... Like someone else mentioned if someone pokes a hole in my door and sticks a gun through it I'm not gonna conduct an INTERVIEW with the perp to discuss his "visit"

November 9, 2005, 10:57 PM	#39
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	The folks most likely to break your door down will be cops. Refer to relationship of forces. tipoc

November 9, 2005, 11:07 PM	#40
Rivers Junior member Join Date: November 5, 2005 Posts: 670	Once again, we find someone expounding authoritatively in a thread on a subject about which he knows very little and offers shallow, ill-thought-out analogies. Given the parameters posed by the threadstarter, of course you'd shoot through the door. There's a big difference in shooting through a door because one hears noises on the other side and shooting through a door when somebody's trying to break the door down. Of course, you shoot, if somebody's beaten the door to the extent that they make a hole in the door. Suggesting that one should always "see a face" in such a situation prior to shooting is childish and simplistic. Use common sense. Don't live in jurisdictions run by pansies. Protect yourself and your family. Talk to a real lawyer, judge, or district attorney who practices in your jurisdiction.

November 10, 2005, 12:36 AM	#41
RsqVet Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Posts: 2,474	Rivers --- you are right on the money --- this situation is an attempted breach of an INTERIOR door --- that has two important points --- 1. You are already fullly or near fully near "weapons free" in any state 2. The door material unless you have made it strfonger than most is not going to be very sturdy so it a. will not hold back a perp for long -- hence you are in immediate danger and b. it will allow pretty good shoot through with any repectable defense caliber --- any one who questions this is invited to the range with the interior door of their choice from the depot. Xaiver --- someone has to say it, get real, I mean I have to respect your desire for safety and so on, frankly I'd much rather have that than a shoot em up attitude but at the end of the day what the heck do you really think you are going to do and what do you think is reasonable? Any one of these situations is a crap situation to be in -- -we are talking about someone breaking a door down, not fumbeling, not noise --- breaking in, to an interior door!! As to the suggestion of manualy disarming a perp who has his hand through the door BAD IDEA -- I would never chose to go "hands on" if I could avoid it -- THINK for a dam second that perp might be on crack, meth, PCP --- real strong, ready to fire willy milly or if you get ina wreseling match what you gona grab? The door knob? One of though auto unlock ones like most interior doors have? Again you just put yourslef in a deeper pile of the crap. Striking anyone with a long arm is't the greatest of ides at all unless you are out of things to make it go bang --- for one thing it requires and akward grip and the long arm is a long lever that could give the BG leverage in a fight, for another the thought gives me great concern over what my muzzle will be poited at and frankly there ain't a firearm out there that I trust it's safeties enough to be actually at or in any way near the muzzle end when the weapon is subjected to the force of being used as a bat. Sorry it's not cut and dry and yes caution and prudance are dictated as always --- and there are a thousand questions that will be situation dependant --- how loud and furios is the beatign of said door and so foth but you can not catagoricly state no-shoot or rekless to do so --- especally if the BG has breached and presented a weapon --- gosh the very idea is almost comical.

November 10, 2005, 08:21 PM	#42
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	It's always interesting when folks take hypothetical discussions so seriously as to be rude to another poster. Always a sign of maturity and class. Like when we were kids and debated whether Batman could take Daredevil with as much enthusiasm and usually with about as much thought, or looking at some posts, maybe less. Those discussions were at least fun. What would you do if a maniac is chopping down the door? Jeez I don't know. What would you do if someones peeping in the window? Shoot em say some. The only folk to ever peep in my windows have been cops coming to serve a warrant. I strongly advise against shooting at cops. Would you shoot through a door or wall? Depends. One fella said that to defend himself and his family he'd shoot blindly through a door and wouldn't worry to much where his stray shots went. He plans on missing obviously. I hope I'm never anywhere in his vacinity if a gunfight breaks out. He's as likely to shoot friend as foe. Well one can speculate all day. I'd rather go shoot and I'll identify my target and try to know where my shots go. I'm responsible for them after all. tipoc

November 10, 2005, 10:03 PM	#43
cas Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2004 Posts: 123	*" 2) They have put a hole in the door and are waving a gun around demanding we open it."* Then you don't shoot through the door, you shoot through the hole! __________________ "He who has it, would do well to have it, as if he did not have it." Savage24.com Cylindersmith.com

November 11, 2005, 12:55 PM	#45
Varmint Eviscerator Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2005 Location: about an hour north of the big apple Posts: 549	either throw something at the bg, or take a bb gun or a very very very low powered weapon(blow gun sling shot) and hit his hand or the gun, or shoot the fram or top of the door, away from where it is possibleto hurt the bg, close enough to scare the crap out of him! Chase

November 11, 2005, 05:44 PM	#46
RsqVet Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Posts: 2,474	"either throw something at the bg, or take a bb gun or a very very very low powered weapon(blow gun sling shot) and hit his hand or the gun, or shoot the fram or top of the door, away from where it is possibleto hurt the bg, close enough to scare the crap out of him! Chase" OH MY GOD NO! NO! NO!; You DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT fire warning shots to "scare the crap out of the him" you will be eaten alive by the police, the local DA and the BG's or his family's lawers, firearms are lethal force, their use is an all or nothing thing, you can not be a "little pregnant" Either the situation is justifiable hommicide --- i.e. the laws of the land say you are justified in killing the other person due to their actions or you are not, any discharge of a firearm will be looked at as such --- attempting to kill the person, trying to aruge otherwise will only result in failure and sad legal ramifications for the misinformed, please look into this as it's a relativly common misconception perhaps generated by old western shows or some crap like that. Again, for the record think about this -- BG in house, with weapon, weapon presented and pointed in your direction ---- I personally don't care how wildly or incoherently the presentation of the wepon is --- even a blind squrrel sometimes finds a nut --- I will not wait for that to happen to me and the combination of being in my house, unwelcome, and pointing a weapon at me or my family makes it a clear cut shoot situation, I will localize his position based on where the hand is comming through and I will fire for effect, knoing my interior doors are not substantally constructed and that there will be significant penetration of this barrier by my weapon as evidanced by tests ammo lab and others have conducted aginst cars and so forth.

November 11, 2005, 07:36 PM	#47
cas Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2004 Posts: 123	No no... you take an electric BBQ starter and plug it in and hang it on the door knob. Or you take a gallon can of paint and hang it on a string... __________________ "He who has it, would do well to have it, as if he did not have it." Savage24.com Cylindersmith.com

November 11, 2005, 09:20 PM	#48
PAINTRAIN Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 16	It's just common sense. Daredevil would win.

November 29, 2005, 12:05 PM	#49
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	I saw this article and remembered this thread........smilies added are mine Resident fired gun through front door to scare men, brother says By Kathleen Baydala [email protected] A Jackson man who shot through his front door at a suspected house burglar early Sunday morning never intended to kill him, a relative said. But Marcus Rawls, 23, of Jackson was found dead on the porch at 4:36 a.m. wearing a ski mask and gloves, officials said. Tory Willis said his brother, Cedric Marshall, was shaken up after learning he had fatally shot a man at 464 Willaman St. "He was trying to protect himself," said Willis, 23. "He wasn't trying to kill anybody." Jackson Police Department Detective Brendon Bell said police had not charged the shooter as of Sunday night. Bell would neither identify nor confirm the shooter described as "an occupant of the house," but Willis identified his brother as the shooter. Marshall could not be reached. But during an interview at the home Sunday afternoon, Willis described what happened. Willis said his brother told him two men he didn't know knocked on his door at 2 a.m. Sunday. And when Marshall didn't answer, the men tried to kick down his door, so he fired shots to scare the men off. Thinking he had done so, he went to bed, Willis said. A few hours later, Marshall's cousin drove by the house and called Marshall when he saw a man lying on the porch, Willis said. Rawls died from a gunshot wound to the head, said Hinds County Coroner Sharon Grisham-Stewart. "Right now the case has to be prepared and presented to the grand jury," Bell said. The grand jury will determine whether the shooting was justifiable. Bell could not confirm whether there was a second potential burglar. Many of the surrounding neighbors on Willaman Street said the neighborhood is usually quiet except for a recent string of break-ins. Precinct 2 Commander Lee Vance said there has been criminal activity in that area in the recent past. "I would not say house burglaries are any more prevalant there than in other places," Vance said. __________________ Xavier's Blog Last edited by XavierBreath; November 29, 2005 at 12:46 PM.

November 29, 2005, 11:07 PM	#50
Tonyny Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 35	tipoc Member Join Date: 12-11-2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 75 The folks most likely to break your door down will be cops. Refer to relationship of forces. tipoc Since I'm not smelling any smoke nor do I have any warrants out on me they better ANNOUNCE who they are and RESEMBLE cops or they're getting a LEAD greeting. Simple.