Warranty: When is it reasonable to request a new gun?

[captainprice]

Interested in everyone's thoughts as to when it is reasonable to request a new gun during the warranty process (1st return to factory, 2nd, entirely manufacturer's discretion, etc)...

Backstory: bought a brand new mid-range (about 2k) AR that is currently on its second trip back to the factory for failing to cycle/short-stroking. On first return the manufacturer's note stated the upper receiver was replaced, however the issue remained unresolved and renders the gun essentially non-functional. I'm also skeptical that the upper was even replaced on the first trip as, both before and after, the upper had a noticeable and unique discoloration to it. Currently 6 weeks since first warranty request, absolutely no functional improvement after first warranty service.

Suppose my question is when might it be considered reasonable to simply request a new gun or full refund (bought direct from manufacturer)? There is clearly a defect that was unable/incorrectly identified on the first RMA trip, and I feel as though this can quickly turn into "RMA/Return ping-pong" where the issue remains unresolved after four or more trips to the factory. Also the element of "polishing crap" comes to mind with each subsequent return trip - sure, they may get lucky and get it to run eventually, but is that product in line/equal to a unit that didn't have issues off the production line? I would be inclined to say no.

Tried searching the forum for a similar topic without luck - thanks for your input and hoping this may also help anyone in a similar situation.

[Nathan]

I think it depends on what is being done.

I feel like they get about 4 times. Once to analyze and fix at a tech level. Once as a manager. A fine tune and a last chance.

[taylorce1]

The AR in question what is it chambered in, how is the gas system set up, what ammunition are you firing in it? Without knowing anything about the rifle it's hard to offer suggestions on anything. Have you called the manufacturer and see what ammunition they test their firearms with.

I'm not familiar with piston driven AR-15 rifles, but usually the cause of short stroking is in the gas system of direct impingement AR rifles. Is the spent cartridge being fully ejected, or if you single load a magazine is the bolt locking to the rear when fired? Has it ever functioned normally?

I know I wouldn't want a complete new gun. It's a hassle here as we have a waiting period, and it cost $45 for a firearm transfer. So a functional upper or just a refund of the rifle would be what I'd want. I went through the hassle of a warranty return last year on a 17 HMR rifle, my sub $250 rifle wound up costing me over $200 more in the end as I had to pay for a new transfer, new scope, and rings. The old rifle had a 4-16X40 on it from the factory, and the rifle they sent didn't have any optics. I could have waited for the same rifle with optics, but the warranty replacement already was in the 7th month when I said just send me a 17 HMR rifle without a scope.

[totaldla]

Sounds like you have a failure to communicate.
Why? Because AR15s are so well understood today that just about anyone can diagnose a problem.

I know it is tempting to be upset and demand that the vendor's customer service "divine" the circumstances leading to the failure, but I've found that a very detailed writeup can be of tremendous help.
Also, a little self-diagnosing can lead to better information provided to the CS tech.
I also recommend a few photos for your own records so you can verify what they say they did.

[captainprice]

Thank you all for your responses so far - rifle is a 5.56 mid-length DI system and was using PMC 55g ball. Never worked out of the box.

Entirely agree that a writeup and communication is key. Sent them a few paragraphs the first time around describing the problem and attempts at self-diagnosing (no loose gas key, off-centered gas block, tight bolt carrier fit, overly stiff buffer spring, etc). Came back without functional improvement.

If the error occurred after a few hundred rounds of use, I would entirely agree that no "divine intervention" would be warranted. However, as the rifle didn't get through a single magazine without continuous failure, I can't help but think the manufacturer has a higher degree of responsibility to provide remedy in this situation - quite clearly a case of manufacturing defect rather than user-induced failure. While I'm happy to assist and attempt to diagnose the problem, not sure I'm convinced that the consumer has a duty to do so when the gun is brand new and functioning so poorly.

Perhaps I'm being unreasonably obstinate while being 2k in the hole with a non-functioning gun, who knows. Thanks again for everyone's replies - truly appreciate the perspectives.

[Chuck Norris]

I would be upset on a $ 2000 dollar gun that does not work,make it right or replace it.
Try a different ammo to see if it works,also more details about what is going on with it,there are many people on here with vast experience with ARs,it could be a simple fix or adjustment they could help with.

[TunnelRat]

I am going through this now with a Daniel Defense H9. My first pistol had issues with keyholing and went back for a warranty replacement. It took 6 months to get a replacement as Daniel Defense worked through a redesign. Then the second pistol had a number of functional issues as well as fitment issues. I sent that back in and was sent a third pistol. The third pistol had fewer functional issues, but the issues it did have were greater in severity than the second pistol. I contacted Daniel Defense and to their credit they are issuing me a refund for the purchase price of the pistol when I send in my third. I guess in my case 3 strikes.

[Chuck Norris]

Maybe my franken ARs aren't so bad,never had any trouble that was not my own making and those were minor adjustments.

[Nathan]

When you say $2000, I cringe a bit. That is typically a low volume, low development cost, low testing, high value loss in outsourced parts…..level.

Basically, I can put together a great AR for $2k. If it has an issue, I’m free to do anything to fix it. Once I commit to building a set design, it is hard to change something to fix the product.

It will be interesting to hear what the fix is.

[totaldla]

OK, I can't resist going into troubleshooting mode..

Do you have a buddy with an AR15? You can swap Bolt Carrier Groups to see if your "tight" bolt isn't leaking too much.

Another test is ammo: you said "PMC ball" - PMC makes 223 and 5.56 ammo. The 5.56 stuff makes more gas. One of the realities of a mid-length system is that it can't leak as much as a carbine length system and work.

And forget about Tula steel case - undergassed and sticky cases.

You could call the vendor and ask them what ammo they tested it with.

https://flic.kr/p/thtysV

[captainprice]

Sent it off last night for round 2 without swapping BCGs or any other components, will certainly keep everyone updated on the outcome.

Nathan - you're entirely correct in the assumption that it is an outsourced conglomeration assembled by a relatively well-known company. While there is definitely a huge (perhaps unjustified) markup, I've put way beyond thousands of rounds through rifles from the same "manufacturer" and a few even survived a house fire. Though I've certainly overpaid by a margin, definitely have/had brand loyalty up until this point.

Ammo is PMC x-Tac 55g FMJ - pretty run of the mill 5.56 from what I've read. Interesting thing is that performance begins to severely degrade as the rifle heats up. First 5-8 rounds well reliably eject at a 2-3 o'clock pattern with bolt lock on empty, then move to 4-5 o'clock on next few, then bolt will begin to fail to lock open, and finally (20 or so rounds in with minimal cooldown time) bolt will fail to strip another round from the mag + fired casings barely eject. Leads me to believe that something is falling out of spec as the rifle heats up and metal expands, but I am by no means an expert on the topic. I noted this pattern on original return but armorer may have fired only a few rounds and called it good before malfunctions began. Hoping this time around has a better outcome.

[Nathan]

Nathan - you're entirely correct in the assumption that it is an outsourced conglomeration assembled by a relatively well-known company. While there is definitely a huge (perhaps unjustified) markup, I've put way beyond thousands of rounds through rifles from the same "manufacturer" and a few even survived a house fire. Though I've certainly overpaid by a margin, definitely have/had brand loyalty up until this point.

Frankly this is a good sign. They’ve made many guns that worked for you?

[Surefee]

At this point, your rifle is spending more time traveling than an Ohio snowbird in January. I’d say it’s time to request a new one before your gun racks up more frequent flyer miles than rounds fired

[Dfariswheel]

My process for this sort of thing is this....
Deflective gun....back to the factory under warranty.
Send a SHORT note fully explaining the problem, but keep it short. The gunsmith hasn't the time to read a long letter.
Attach the note TOO the gun so the gunsmith will see it.

Comes back and still not right, strike Two.....get on the phone and ask to speak to a manager or supervisor.
Be polite, just explain the problem with the gun and that this is the second round back.
Ask the managers name and tell him you'll address the package to HIM, and ask him to step it through the repair process.
Ask him to personally check it before returning it to you.

Third time...three strikes and you're out.
Talk to a manager, explain politely all this and request a new gun.
If the manager is reluctant or fails to take care of things, ask to speak to HIS manager or supervisor.
Most good companies will either take care of it second pass, or will not argue about a new gun.

A major key is being polite and reasonable. Getting angry doesn't pay off.
If you're not getting satisfaction, ask to speak to higher managers and work your way up.

[Koda94]

Its going to be subjective based on how well their customer service is treating you from the beginning. If they are treating you well, fast and responsive then I'm willing to let them decide when to replace it or refund... within reason, after 4 trips I would ask them to consider replacing it.

Now if they are not treating you well then you could start asking them sooner. Not that they will honor your request, like it or not your at their mercy on this decision so be polite the entire time. When I went thru this I was in over a year of many return trips to no avail I finally told them if I didn't get a replacement I was going to sell the gun and they would lose their customer. I got my replacement but the whole customer service still left me with a bad experience... (and this was with a very reputable brand).

IMO a $2000 gun better run everything right out of the box and run it well. Thats not a "mid range" gun.

[Ricklin]

I'm pushing 70 and have owned guns since I was a kid. Over all those years and more than a couple guns I've had two new guns that needed to be returned to the factory. In both cases the guns were 100% replaced with a new product.
#1 was my very shiny stainless Remington (Pietta) 1858 NMA, It arrived with a sloppily machined cylinder, no two bores were the same and all oversize. Unpleasant experience and difficult customer service, when I reported the measured bores they relented and agreed to "take a look at it" however the freight was on me. They replaced the revolver and paid the return freight, still have it, great gun.
#2 was in the last few weeks. In this case a PCP gun bought direct from the manufacturer. The bolt handle was on the outside of the box when received. Freight damaged. Chinese customer service please take pictures and video. Pleasantly surprised, I took pics and a 5 sec video. I had a call tag in my email the next day. They shipped a new replacement when I dropped off the box with UPS. New one is great. I suggested they ship the bolt handle in the parts bag. They were appreciative for the suggestion.
Please update your thread to let us know how you fare. I suspect the culprit here is the guy you did not contact.

[Skans]

While I am very familiar with AR's have built several, I would have difficulty diagnosing a slightly out-of-spec upper receiver, lower receiver or bad barrel extension.

[rmh3481]

I had a Colt Expanse brought to me like this one that refused to run. Tried everything. I was going to break it down and redrill the gas port and then use an adjustable block. Tried a compensator as a last resort and it did the trick.. A compensator is like a flash hider, but with a closed front end that just allows the bullet to pass thru. It keeps the pressure curve in the barrel for just a split second longer. Just long enough to work the action. Once you get 500 rounds thru it you will look back on this. I would also move up to Lake City 5.56 ammo because it has a little more pop than Bronze. Good luck with it.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by rmh3481

I had a Colt Expanse brought to me like this one that refused to run. Tried everything. I was going to break it down and redrill the gas port and then use an adjustable block. Tried a compensator as a last resort and it did the trick.. A compensator is like a flash hider, but with a closed front end that just allows the bullet to pass thru. It keeps the pressure curve in the barrel for just a split second longer. Just long enough to work the action. Once you get 500 rounds thru it you will look back on this. I would also move up to Lake City 5.56 ammo because it has a little more pop than Bronze. Good luck with it.

Another approach might be to leak less.

[pete2]

I only have 2 ARs, both work as advertised. This is more than I can say about the new handguns I've bought over the last 10 to 15 years. I have bought probably 15, three quarters of them have something wrong. One was replaced with a gun that was worse than the first. I don't even send them in on warranty anymore. Repair myself or live with it. As for rifles, they have a good record, all work as advertised, prolly 9 new ones, one shot low, not bad, they sent me a taller front sight for it. Some companies have no QC what so ever.

[Shadow9mm]

Personally, I would be asking for a refund not a new rifle.

My policy on guns is simple. It should work when I get it. I understand things can happen. I will give the manufacturer an opportunity to fix the issue. However If they do not fix the issue after 2 returns, I'm asking for a refund or selling it and calling it a loss. I will never buy that model of gun from that manufacturer ever again. If it was wrong from the factory and they cannot fix it, why would I have any expectation that a replacement rifle would be any better? I will go buy what I want from someone else.

Also, before I buy a gun/brand I will call their customer service and ask questions. If I cannot call and talk to a real person who is reasonable competent, I wont buy from them. Only being able to submit tickets via e-mail or contact form paces is unacceptable imho. Learned this one the hard way.

[captainprice]

Received the rifle back last week and ran 60 rounds through it without issue. Armorer's note stated it was 'slightly ported up' which I assume to mean the gas port was opened up just a bit. Getting consistent/strong ejection at 3 o'clock, consistent lock on empty, and nothing occurring that would lead me to believe something is still wrong.

Perhaps the rifle is now so over-gassed that it is simply outrunning any underlying issue, who knows. Either way, I would consider the second warranty return to have been a success and will certainly update this thread should any catastrophic failures occur down the road. Thanks again for everyones responses - truly appreciated.

[Chuck Norris]

Glad they got you up and running.