Managing recoil

[justanotherolddude]

The other day I was told a 9mm, 147 gr bullet will have less recoil than a 124 gr bullet. That doesn't make sense to me. Anybody care to comment?

[Drm50]

That’s against the laws of physics unless the heavier slug has drastically reduced charge.

[Sharkbite]

Somebody will chime in with the energy formula. Without getting technical, i find 147gn 9mm to be less snappy then 115gn.

All else being equal the heavier bullet will cause more recoil. But this is not an equal thing. The lighter bullet is going faster. This adds recoil. No free lunch.

[Recycled bullet]

Hello, yes.

IF you shoot the two different bullet weights at the same velocity from the same gun THEN the heavier bullet will cause the gun to recoil harder and faster.

A heavier bullet going at the same velocity will have a greater amount of kinetic energy. A lighter bullet at the same velocity will have less kinetic energy. "All other things being equal the heavier bullet will kick more"

IF you are shooting a recoil operated hand gun with the minimum amount of gunpowder that will cycle the action with the specific bullet THEN it is likely that the heavier bullet will feel like it recoils the gun less due to its ability to create a greater amount of recoil due to bullet mass and with a smaller amount of gunpowder. "Less snappy feeling and less noisy"

Recoil can be measured as total Force and also how that force is spread out over time. Both of those information can be useful when designing handloads that have to meet specific criteria to cycle an auto loading magazine fed gun.

There are also interesting things that can be done, such as seating bullets deeper into the cartridge casing so as to reduce the available internal volume, and combine that with lighter weight bullets so that increased pressure , velocity and recoil to cycle the guns action can be created with smaller amounts of powder and lighter bullets

Total recoil for a specific gun is the mass and velocity of the bullet Plus the mass and velocity of the gas ejecta created by the propellant powder which then has to interact with the the mass of the gun and then how high the center line of the bore interacts with the structure of your hand.

A gun with a higher bore axis may feel like it recoils harder.

Also ...it's easy to associate recoil force with how loud the gun is this means that the louder gun feels like it recoils harder even if it is not actually recoiling harder.

Then there is the entire recoil effect of muzzle ports, Magna porting and muzzle brakes. Those work by redirecting some of those hot expanding gases. They also can affect the guns cycle of operation by slowing slide velocity and barrel unlock timing.

Guns and shooting are awesome.

[sigarms228]

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

Somebody will chime in with the energy formula. Without getting technical, i find 147gn 9mm to be less snappy then 115gn.

All else being equal the heavier bullet will cause more recoil. But this is not an equal thing. The lighter bullet is going faster. This adds recoil. No free lunch.

I find the same. MY SD round is Federal HST 147 +P and find it to be very tolerable to shoot even in my Walther PPS.

I bought a case of Federal Syntec 150 gr when SGAmmo had a deal on it for the wife as it is very soft shooting.

https://www.federalpremium.com/handg...-AE9SJAP1.html

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I load a lot of 147 loads and they all recoil a lot less. There isn't much space left in the case for gunpowder.

The lower recoil is why I like them as a carry load.

[RickB]

It's mostly suggestive "feel" that is different, rather than recoil being less.
Most describe the heavy bullet/lower velo load as feeling "soft", which might sound good, but soft is also slow, so if you are interested in follow-up shots, "splits", you are probably better off with the lighter bullet at higher velocity.

[74A95]

It depends on who told you that, and what they were thinking. They might be right or they might be wrong.

Here's the numbers, based on Federal 9mm USA ammo using 0 weight for gunpowder and for a 2 pound gun;

115 gr @ 1190 fps = 2.97 lb recoil
124 gr @ 1140 fps = 3.17 lb recoil
147 gr @ 990 fps = 3.36 lb recoil

If you add the gunpowder, it changes a little. Let's use 6 gr for the 115, 5 gr for the 124 and 4 gr for the 147;

115 gr @ 1190 fps w/ 6 gr powder = 3.45 lb recoil
124 gr @ 1140 fps w/ 5 gr powder = 3.56 lb recoil
147 gr @ 990 fps w/ 4 gr powder= 3.64 lb recoil

You can see that the powder charge weight makes a difference and the numbers are closer.

Different bullets weights feel different when fired, so there is that.


Now, if you load ammo to the same power factor (for competition) it's a different story. Now, the heavy bullet will produce less recoil force.

It's discussed here:

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...ves-edge/99399

[Gunfu_blaster]

The following is my opinion (in plain English):
Recoil can be calculated as a "power factor". Energy calculator apps usually will add power factor to their calculations. A heavier bullet will recoil more than a lighter bullet, pressures being equal. However, it does not translate to felt recoil. Felt recoil is dependent on several factors, excluding the human ones. Loadings that eject cases very closely(low power) can feel harder in the hand than a loading that ejects cases 6ft away when using normal or heavy recoil springs. This is because a semi auto balances the recoil between compression of the spring(which is held by the frame which is held by the hand) and muzzle rise when the slide impacts the top of the frame and diverts the recoil upwards, alleviating the recoil going into the hand. (That's why I suggest using a lighter spring than OEM on handguns when cases are not ejecting far) High powered ammo is usually controlled with a stronger recoil spring by most people but too strong of a recoil spring that makes those higher power rounds trickle to the feet feels harder in the hand and is more difficult to control. Tell me why most people use such a strong grip when their muzzle rise is low and using the factory spring or heavier. However, you see those good shooters on YT and wonder how they make it look so easy and they tell you practice, practice, practice, but they got a secret that is obvious to know when they can rack the slide with a pinkynail.
So yes, it's actually possible heavier bullets feel like less recoil if the gun happens to cycle better with them.
Recoil happens by the user resisting energy. If you don't resist it well, you get a limp wrist effect, less recoil, failure to cycle. Energy favors velocity, heavier bullets that have equal pressure have less energy, though, more power factor. Recoil happens with power factor after the bullets leaves the barrel, but as the bullet accelerates in the barrel and gathers energy it is completely up to the shooter to retain as much possible in order to not have a limp wrist effect. As the bullet accelerates, energy is adding inch per inch with the last inch of barrel travel gathering the most velocity and a higher fraction of the total energy is accumulated right as the bullet leaves the barrel and is the most responsible for creating the recoil effect. Until that moment a heavier bullet has resulted in a lighter push to the shooter but now that the power factor kicks in to reciprocate the slide there is more PF with a heavy bullet than a light one which throws the slide quicker resulting in less time spent for the recoil spring to compress which means less pressure to the frame and the hand, however, more muzzle rise is to be expected.
Recoil mitigation vs recoil control
Recoil mitigation means the the user is trying their best to keep the muzzle from rising and the frame from moving backwards in its point in space.
Recoil control is the ability of one to guide the sight system back to their next intended target after each shot with the least amount of sideways movement possible and without stopping short of or going past sight alignment as much as possible which increases the time to get realigned for an accurate (or proficient) follow up shot.

[justanotherolddude]

Thanks to all of you for the answers. I plan to shoot to different weights and see which ones me and the guns like the best. As for brands, my Sigs prefer Federals while the Kimber likes anything. The guy that told me about the recoil did say the 147 grains would have less powder. I don't know about that as I don't reload. Thanks again for your input.

[jmr40]

There is recoil measured in Ft lbs of energy. Which is going to be pretty low for any 9mm load.

Then there is recoil velocity. If you go to any of the online recoil calculation websites and enter the data most give both recoil and recoil velocity.

Most of my experience is with rifle loads. I've not played around with any handgun loads but I'll use what I know about rifles as an example. A 35 Whelen and a 300 WM have pretty much the same recoil energy. But the recoil from the 35 Whelen happens over a longer period of time.

It's still only a fraction of a second, but having the recoil spread out over more time makes it more comfortable for most people to shoot. The same thing is happening with handguns on a smaller scale. About 1/10 the recoil of either the 35 Whelen or 300 WM.

Generally heavier bullets at slower velocity has slower recoil velocity. It's the same recoil, maybe more, but since it happens over more time it feels like less.

BTW, a recoil pad on a rifle or shotgun does the same thing. The gun recoils just as much without it, but the pad spreads the recoil out over more time.

The same thing happens with gas operated semi-autos. The gas system in the guns spread the recoil out over more time. That's why a gas operated shotgun is more comfortable to shoot than a fixed breach or inertia operated semi-auto.

[JohnKSa]

Recoil is a function of conservation of momentum and is based on momentum.

A simple way to compare recoil in a single firearm is to calculate the muzzle momentum--the mass velocity product of bullet at the muzzle. The higher the mass velocity product, the more recoil.

This works well for different loads shot in a single firearm, but it may not provide very useful comparing loads in a variety of firearms of the same general type and is really problematic when comparing widely different firearms because felt recoil varies considerably across different firearm types. For example, at a given muzzle momentum, a revolver will seem to recoil more than a semi-auto and a blowback autopistol will seem to recoil more than a recoil-operated autopistol, even if they are all about the same weight.

For what you are trying to do, take the bullet mass (go ahead and use weight) and multiply it times the muzzle velocity and use that figure as a comparison to the other loads you want to check. This should get you in the right ballpark.

[TailGator]

The guy that told me about the recoil did say the 147 grains would have less powder.

And he is right. The heavier bullet gets a slower start due to its greater inertia, so the same amount of powder behind a heavier bullet generates higher pressure. Powder is reduced to keep the pressures even and safe. Whether that results in less, more, or the same recoil depends on the other factors that folks here have covered for you.

[44 AMP]

Felt recoil is dependent on several factors, excluding the human ones.

I have to disagree with this, in part, anyway. I don't think one should exclude the human factor, indeed, when taking about FELT recoil I think the human factor is primary, and the only one that really matters.

Sure, other factors such as energy, mass of the moving parts, velocity of them, and such things go into making up what one feels, but what you, or I or everyone else feels is what "felt recoil" is about, and what we feel can and often does vary from individual to individual.

I have been told (and read) many, many times over the years that 9mms recoil less than .45acps, but I don't find that to be the case in what I feel.

Shoot standard ball ammo, which has essentially the same amount of energy, in guns of the same weight, in MY hands, I find he amount of felt recoil to be the same. Muzzle rise is the same. The only difference I feel is that the 9mm gets to full recoil a little faster than the .45.

This is an entirely subjective matter, entirely what I feel happns, and not supported by the energy calculations, and different from what some other people feel.

Why does the 147gr 9mm feel softer? My guess is the heavier bullet, moving slower spends more time in the gun, and this spreads the recoil impulse over a greater amout of time, which has the effect of making it feel less.

[GeauxTide]

This is an entirely subjective matter, entirely what I feel happns, and not supported by the energy calculations, and different from what some other people feel.

Recoil in a 9mm? C'MON!!!!

[Nathan]

Recoil in a 9mm? C'MON!!!!

Tell us your split times, all shots on a paper plate at 10 yards….seriously.

IMO, there are 2 outcomes of recoil:

1) lack of desire to shoot again due to discomfort
2) lack of ability to shoot shots in a row at a fast enough shot-2-shot pace

Most folks talk about recoil related to #1, but #2 is more important to understand for peak shooting performance.It also has some ability to improve through training.

[1972RedNeck]

Can't say I notice much difference between bullets weights in any of my semi autos.

Now for my 460 S&W with full house loads (the only kind I load), 365 grain rounds kick significantly more than the 200 grain rounds. Both loaded to max pressure via H110.

[tangolima]

Assuming the loads have the same chamber pressure with same powder. The following are generally true.

Heavier bullet has high kinetic energy (E), but its muzzle velocity (V) is lower. The question here is its momentum (M). m is bullet mass (or weight).

E=1/2*m*V^2
M=m*V

M=2*E/V

So the load with heavier bullet always has high momentum and hence kicks harder, unless it is loaded to a lower chamber pressure or with different powder, which is possible for commercial ammos.

Just a side tidbit. I bought a Kindle book on ballistics for $1. The author was a scientist from Albania. His results were most probably from Soviet Union. In the book there were equations relating bullet mass and muzzle velocity. For every 1% increase in bullet mass, the muzzle velocity decrease by 0.4%, so the increase in KE is 0.2%, M is 0.6%.

-TL

P.S. George Klimi, PhD, was professor in Albania, contributing to science and bringing down the dictator in the 90s. He is now teaching at universities in New York.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Recycled bullet]

The skills developed managing the mild recoil of a 22lr and 9 mm handgun are to some extent transferable to larger caliber and harder recoiling handguns.
"He who practices effectively may display higher competence"

[1972RedNeck]

The skills developed managing the mild recoil of a 22lr and 9 mm handgun are to some extent transferable to larger caliber and harder recoiling handguns.

I have not found that to be true at all. For 357 mag and down, I lock my elbows and wrists like Jerry Miculek teaches. I use every bit of strength I have to keep muzzle rise to a minimum.

For 454 and up, I keep the locked wrist and death grip but I let my elbows and shoulders roll with the recoil. One handed is actually easier to soak up the recoil with no ill affects than two handed.

I can shoot my 454 pretty fast if I shoot it like a 9mm. But it hurts my arms if I lock up tight. Keep it loose and I can shoot the hottest of loads all day long.

[GeauxTide]

Tell us your split times, all shots on a paper plate at 10 yards….seriously.

Not a competitive shooter; however, been shooting 9mm, 357, 41, and 44spl, Mag, 45acp, and 45 Colt since the 70s.

[Nathan]

I can shoot my 454 pretty fast if I shoot it like a 9mm. But it hurts my arms if I lock up tight. Keep it loose and I can shoot the hottest of loads all day long.

I’d like to see that. Maybe I have seen Jerry do it. I’m confident that my big bore splits are 2-3 times my 9mm splits from a duty sized gun.

[Nathan]

Not a competitive shooter; however, been shooting 9mm, 357, 41, and 44spl, Mag, 45acp, and 45 Colt since the 70s.

Me either. I just like to occasionally know my shot to shot times when making hits. I started in the 80’s,…well really more like post 2002, so you are way ahead of me. In years pulling pistol triggers.

[44 AMP]

A question about "split times", I understand time between shots, but is it like cowboy action where you just have to hit the target somewhere for it to count, or is it done in competitions that count where you hit the targets, along with how fast??

If speed alone were the most important thing, we'd all be shooting 8lb .22 rimfires...

One area where I find semi autos providing the most significant felt recoil reduction is when shooting magnum level cartridges full house loads.

The size, weight, and particularly the grip shape of magnum semi autos is significantly different from magnum revolvers. Full house .44 Mag from a stock S&W M29 hurts (me, anyway). From a Desert Eagle, its comfortable and fun!