Defense Against 2BG w/OC & Knife?

cbjessee@NH · September 25, 2001, 05:21 AM

I was just reading in the paper about 2 BGs who approached 2 guys in a car - one sprayed the drivers side with OC and the other had a knife on the passenger side. Event was disrupted by people exiting the Stop & Rob, so there is no exciting conclusion to review.

I'll make up a scenario where 2 guys approach within 7yd, one pulls out an OC and the other a knife and the OC guy sprays toward you but you duck the stream/fog as he isn't too good at it. While a less-than-lethal threat, you know the OC can incapacitate you and block your defense against the knife. You consider running, but quickly assess your escape options are few with a knife within 7yd. While cursing at you, they have not said they just want your money so you don't know their stated intent - you only know they have confronted you with a lethal weapon within killing range and attempted to subdue you with OC.

You draw your CCW pistol and ...?

(I'm looking for critical commentary beyond "Shoot both MFs", although you might do so, depending on how you think it's tactically, ethically and legally defensable to respond)

BRET

David Scott · September 25, 2001, 07:33 AM

The guy with OC can get you at greater distance than Knifey Boy, so you take the OC guy first. At the same time you increase distance and if possible move so that OC Guy is between you and Knifey Boy, so Knifey Boy doesn't have a clear run at you. With OC Guy nursing a double tap in his bosom, Knifey Boy will have to go around or jump over him to get you. You should be able to pop him before he gets there.

C.R.Sam · September 25, 2001, 08:52 AM

One shot to high center of mass each guy, repeat. Move back or to side, whichever gets a barrier behind me......assess situation lookin for more evil activity. Top off weapon.

Do not shoot to kill......shoot to stop, instantly(hopefully).

Sam

cbjessee@NH · September 26, 2001, 05:28 AM

I guess I was wondering about what the legal implications of shooting the guy with the knife first - then you have eliminated the lethal threat and disparity of force. You are faced with a fellow assualting you with a non-lethal weapon. If he tries to OC you again, even after you stopped the guy with the knife, seems you are legally barred from shooting him. But maybe there are other considerations?
BRET

David Scott · September 26, 2001, 07:50 AM

Cbjessee, you are being attacked by TWO people. It's reasonable to assume that the OC is to disable you so the knife weilder can get to you. Check your local laws, but here in Florida I believe you would be justified in shooting both.

C.R.Sam · September 26, 2001, 09:26 AM

I agree with David.

I perceive it as a single cordinated attack being launched by (at least) two people.......thus both legitimate targets. The range is too close to allow time for neutralizing part of the attack and then assesing the situation before continuing the defence.

Sam

September 25, 2001, 05:21 AM	#1
cbjessee@NH Junior member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: Bedford, NH Posts: 72	Defense Against 2BG w/OC & Knife? I was just reading in the paper about 2 BGs who approached 2 guys in a car - one sprayed the drivers side with OC and the other had a knife on the passenger side. Event was disrupted by people exiting the Stop & Rob, so there is no exciting conclusion to review. I'll make up a scenario where 2 guys approach within 7yd, one pulls out an OC and the other a knife and the OC guy sprays toward you but you duck the stream/fog as he isn't too good at it. While a less-than-lethal threat, you know the OC can incapacitate you and block your defense against the knife. You consider running, but quickly assess your escape options are few with a knife within 7yd. While cursing at you, they have not said they just want your money so you don't know their stated intent - you only know they have confronted you with a lethal weapon within killing range and attempted to subdue you with OC. You draw your CCW pistol and ...? (I'm looking for critical commentary beyond "Shoot both MFs", although you might do so, depending on how you think it's tactically, ethically and legally defensable to respond) BRET

September 25, 2001, 07:33 AM	#2
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	The guy with OC can get you at greater distance than Knifey Boy, so you take the OC guy first. At the same time you increase distance and if possible move so that OC Guy is between you and Knifey Boy, so Knifey Boy doesn't have a clear run at you. With OC Guy nursing a double tap in his bosom, Knifey Boy will have to go around or jump over him to get you. You should be able to pop him before he gets there. __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

September 26, 2001, 07:50 AM	#5
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	Cbjessee, you are being attacked by TWO people. It's reasonable to assume that the OC is to disable you so the knife weilder can get to you. Check your local laws, but here in Florida I believe you would be justified in shooting both. __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

September 25, 2001, 08:52 AM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	One shot to high center of mass each guy, repeat. Move back or to side, whichever gets a barrier behind me......assess situation lookin for more evil activity. Top off weapon. Do not shoot to kill......shoot to stop, instantly(hopefully). Sam

September 26, 2001, 05:28 AM	#4
cbjessee@NH Junior member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: Bedford, NH Posts: 72	I guess I was wondering about what the legal implications of shooting the guy with the knife first - then you have eliminated the lethal threat and disparity of force. You are faced with a fellow assualting you with a non-lethal weapon. If he tries to OC you again, even after you stopped the guy with the knife, seems you are legally barred from shooting him. But maybe there are other considerations? BRET

September 26, 2001, 09:26 AM	#6
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	I agree with David. I perceive it as a single cordinated attack being launched by (at least) two people.......thus both legitimate targets. The range is too close to allow time for neutralizing part of the attack and then assesing the situation before continuing the defence. Sam