Thinking about some 19th Century revolvers

[TruthTellers]

I got the spark thinking about getting some vintage cartridge revolvers from the mid to late 1800's, specifically the Colt 1877 Lightning, 1878, 1892, and Merwin Hulbert revolvers.

Those are the ones I know from that period that interest me. I'm not looking at Colt 1873 Single Action Army or Remington revolvers, but if there are other well known revolvers from that time period of the 1870's through to the late 1890's that I'm not aware of, please enlighten me.

That said, of the 1877 Lightning, 1878, 1892 Colt's and the Merwin Hulbert's, which revolver would be better to start an Old West collection with and which would be good for occasional shooting?

EDIT: And I will reload to shoot these old guns with black powder and lead bullets.

EDIT 2: Not interested in discussing percussion revolvers. Strictly cartridge revolvers only.

[Dave T]

Unless you are going to load black powder cartridges none of the models you listed are suitable for "occasional shooting". Colt did not guarantee their pistols for smokeless powder until 1900. Merwin & Hulberts are not suitable for smokeless either.

Dave

[TruthTellers]

will reload with black powder and lead bullets.

[lee n. field]

That said, of the 1877 Lightning, 1878, 1892 Colt's and the Merwin Hulbert's, which revolver would be better to start an Old West collection with and which would be good for occasional shooting?

Everything I've read about the Lighting says they're fragile, and quite apt to break.

I suggest going to the Forgotten Weapons blog, or his Youtube page, and reading about and watching what he has on the various European revovlers of the period. Those look interesting. The Euros were into double action way before we on this side of the Atlantic were.

[UncleEd]

Truthtellers,

Your proposals and comments seem to indicate a large void between
knowledge and desire. I suggest you start extensively studying 19th Century
firearms in books and articles from magazines and some published on the
internet.

[Bob Wright]

Go to Cimarron Arms page and look over those replicas there. For shooting, also cartridge replicas are for smokeless powder.

Here is a replica, more or less, of a Colt Navy Open Top .38:



Vintage guns are for looks and brags only.

Bob Wright

[TruthTellers]

I'd not really interested in a single action from the period, especially an open top Colt. Open top Merwin Hulbert would be okay.

The only issue I have with the Merwin's is that a lot of them were not chambered in common cartridges of the time like .45 Colt, .38 Colt, .44-40 and were mostly in proprietary cartridges.

[Jim Watson]

The only place I can think of where shootable quality, shootable condition, and affordable price meet is the large frame S&W topbreak. A Double Action .44 Russian can be had without too much fuss.

[T. O'Heir]

Lotta the real vintage stuff is far too valuable to be shooting with anything. However, any real antique you'd need to have checked by a smithy who knows what he's doing with 'em.
A replica is a lot less fuss.

[ligonierbill]

For starters, try the 1892 Colt. You can find them at decent prices, and while they are not as reliable as the later Army Special, they have an OK reputation. I have an 1877, 4-digit serial lettered to 1878. It's fully functional, and I worked up a black powder load using a cosmetically challenged but functional Army Special. I just need to gather the nerve to shoot it. And I will.

I can't quote an authority, but I understand that the old Colt DA are best fired DA. They are more likely to break in SA. Parts and gunsmithing are rare as hen's teeth for these, therefore very costly.

Good luck.

PS: There is a coltforum.com. Those guys know everything!

[g.willikers]

The English made Adams, Deane Adams and derivative double action percussion revolvers would have to be included in any meaningful 19th century collection.
Affordability might be a concern, though.

[Driftwood Johnson]

The only issue I have with the Merwin's is that a lot of them were not chambered in common cartridges of the time like .45 Colt, .38 Colt, .44-40 and were mostly in proprietary cartridges.

The large frame Merwin Hulberts were chambered for three calibers. 44 M&H, 44 Russian, and 44-40. Yes, 44 Merwin was a proprietary cartridge, but it can be loaded today with 41 Magnum brass. A friend has one and that is what he used to make the rounds. The ones chambered for 44 Russian will say Russian Model on the left side of the frame, below the cylinder. 44 Russian brass is available from Starline and I load it with the 200 grain Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet. The ones chambered for 44-40 were labeled CALIBRE WINCHESTER 1873 on the left side of the frame below the cylinder. They were marked this way because 44-40 was the primary round the Winchester Model 1873 was chambered for.

I have two of them chambered for 44 Russian and one chambered for 44-40. I would post photos, but my Photobucket account is all messed up right now.

You are correct, Merwin Hulbert revolvers were never chambered for 45 Colt. Guess what? Neither were Smith and Wesson revolvers.

Regarding the open top versions of the Merwin Hulbert revolvers, it depends on when they were made. The earliest versions were open tops. Later, a top strap was added for extra strength.

Good luck finding a MH revolver in working condition for a reasonable price. They are not growing on trees. Trust me.

I concur, S&W Top Breaks are a much more viable option. Be aware, because of certain design changes, the modern reproductions of S&W Top Breaks do not perform well with Black Powder, although the originals do fine with it.

As to what S&W Top Break to look for, the American model was chambered for an obsolete heeled bullet cartridge. Custom molds and loading equipment would be required to load the cartridges. The Russian model is awkward to cock and shoot because of the grip design. The Schofield model is much more user friendly because of the grip shape. The Piece de Resistance of S&W Top Breaks was the New Model Number Three. The best Top Break design ever made. The 44 Double Action models were pretty good too.

I would post photos, but I can't right now. Do a search on some of my posts and perhaps you can find photos.

[TruthTellers]

Thanks for the post Driftwood.

.44 Russian and .44-40 would interest me, I know reloading supplies are easy to get for those cartridges.

Now, with the smaller frame Merwin's, were any of them chambered in .38 Colt, .32 Colt, or .32 S&W? I'm not interested in anything chambered with Merwin in the name.

[muzzleblast...]

Maybe one of these:
http://www.gunclassics.com/griswold.html

Not very expensive.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/32...ass-frame-blue

[Driftwood Johnson]

Looking at some reprints of old Merwin Hulbert catalogs.

They list 38 S&W, or 38 MH. Not completely sure if both cartridges could be fired in the same gun, but I know I have seen pocket MH revolvers chambered for 38 S&W. Not 38 Special, 38 S&W.

Also 32 S&W. I have seen more of them chambered for 38 S&W than 32 S&W.

Not 100% sure about this, but I think the proprietary MH cartridges eventually gave way to the more popular and more easily available S&W rounds.

[TruthTellers]

I'd be down for reloading .38 S&W. I've recently had in a corner of my mind a top break H&R revolver in .38 S&W, so a Merwin in the same cartridge wouldn't be objectionable.

[James K]

The problem with ammo for the M&H is that the cartridges made for M&H are of a specific length so that when the gun is opened, only the fired cases will fall clear, the unfired rounds being held by the bullet remaining in the cylinder. That requires a specific cartridge and case length, which most modern S&W cartridges won't meet. So they will load and fire OK, but one feature of the M&H, its selective ejection, will not work.

The Colt DA (Model 1877) action is such that not only is breakage a problem, wear is also. That revolver's design is such that wear almost any place in the lockwork will have a cascade effect. When new (and yes, i have handled and fired ones that were near new), things work fine. But when there is wear in any part, timing goes to heck, and the gun becomes non-functional. And even if parts were available, there are very few gunsmiths who understand those guns and are able and willing to work on them. Not, IMHO, a good choice for other than a non-firing pure collector item.

Jim

[Armybrat]

The Cimarron Lightning .38 Special is the closest you're gonna come to the original Colt, except this modern version is single action. The .45 Colt version is the Thunderer.

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/lig...-3-1-2-in.html

The Lightning .38:

[TruthTellers]

Well, it sounds like the 1877 and 1878 Colt's are out.

That leaves Merwin Hulbert and the Colt M1892

[Driftwood Johnson]

The problem with ammo for the M&H is that the cartridges made for M&H are of a specific length so that when the gun is opened, only the fired cases will fall clear, the unfired rounds being held by the bullet remaining in the cylinder. That requires a specific cartridge and case length, which most modern S&W cartridges won't meet. So they will load and fire OK, but one feature of the M&H, its selective ejection, will not work.

That selective ejection business is over rated.

First, the stroke of the cylinder for each caliber; 44 MH, 44 Russian, or 44-40 is specific to the cartridge the gun is chambered for. Doesn't matter if it is the 44MH cartridge or one of the other two. The gun will only open far enough for spent rounds of the specific caliber to fall free.

Here is a Pocket Army chambered for 44-40. The barrel and cylinder are pulled all the way forward. You can see how the bullets on all these live rounds are retaining the cartridges and preventing them from being ejected. You will also notice that gravity has shifted most of them have somewhat and they are no longer perfectly lined up with the chambers. If I tried to close the cylinder and barrel now, the rounds that are out of line would not feed nicely back into the chambers, they would jam in the chambers and the gun would not close all the way. Trust me on this.

On top of that, in my experience the spent rounds don't always fall clear anyway. Things jiggle around enough that I usually have to flick one or two spent cases out with a finger anyway.

Art Phelps made a big deal of this 'selective ejection' business, but in my experience it is a bit of hoo hah. Does not really happen in real life.

[Driftwood Johnson]

If you want a really great old revolver, look for a S&W New Model Number Three. The best of the Top Breaks. Does not have the awkward grip shape of the Russian model, and there were more of them made than Schofields. Standard caliber was 44 Russian, but they were also made in several other chamberings too. Except no 45 Colt.

[TruthTellers]

I really don't care about the selective ejection business, I'm going to shoot all the rounds in the thing before I reload, so...

And I'm not interested in Smith's from the 1800's.

[Driftwood Johnson]

And I'm not interested in Smith's from the 1800's.

Your loss.

Despite the myths you have heard about Merwin Hulberts, the S&W Top Breaks were better guns in every way.

[Hawg]

The Cimarron Lightning .38 Special is the closest you're gonna come to the original Colt, except this modern version is single action. The .45 Colt version is the Thunderer.

That doesn't look anything like a Lightening. All it is is a 73 with birdshead grips.

[tony pasley]

There is always the ones made by Hopkins Allen. Iver Johnson started back then.