30-06 for m1 garand - Page 2

David Wile · June 29, 2012, 10:19 PM

Hey folks,

Unless I missed something, it seemed that Thorn indicated he intended to load his ammo on a Hornady L&L progressive press while using 4895 powder. I cannot imagine using any extruded powder on a progressive press. Our powder measures do a great job with ball and flake powders, but expecting to get the same consistent powder throws with extruded powder just is not realistic. I know that 4895 is the favorite for Garand loads, but that does not mean other ball powders cannot provide the same results while being used on progressive machines.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

**Unclenick** · June 29, 2012, 11:04 PM

You can use the Quick Measure and its adapter. The inexpensive Lee Perfect measure does pretty well, too, and can also be adapted to progressive loaders using Lee's Universal Charging Die.

That said, stick powders don't always seem to need the same degree of weight consistency you get with sphericals. I pulled bullets from some Winchester Supreme .308 match loads once that used 748, and that powder was all dispensed within a span of 0.05 grains according to my lab scale. The .308 Gold Medal Match I pulled the same year had 4064 in it (they now use RL15), and the charge spread was 0.4 grains, but it shot more accurately than the Winchester load.

Hatcher's Notebook includes the information that choosing powder for the National Match loads one year, he tried two stick powders that he said both had a burn rate about what modern IMR4320 has. One was a short grain and would meter to a span of 0.6 grains in the arsenal loading equipment. The other was a long, coarse grain that could only be held to a span of 1.7 grains in the arsenal powder dispensers. Nonetheless, the loads that came off the machinery with that wide charge weight spread were consistently more accurate than those filled with the finer grain powder that metered weight more accurately.

There seems to be a phenomenon whereby, because they can pack to a wider range of bulk densities than spherical powders can, stick powders have some tendency to self-compensate for dispensed bulk density differences. It works better for some than for others, and better in some cartridges than others. Pack them tighter and the charge weight increases for a given volume, but the flame front then moves through the powder mass more slowly, slowing down ignition and vice versa. The bottom line seems to be that dispensing with the same volume rather than the same weight works just fine with many of them. Presumably, Hatcher's coarse grain powder was one of the better ones in this regard, given the bullet weight and case volume he was using. Anyway, you can but try before passing judgment.

THORN74 · July 9, 2012, 10:15 PM

OK .... got my lnl ap setup.... loaded first 8 rounds... full en bloc

Hornady 150 gr fmjbt, 46 gr imr 4895, win lrm peers and hxp brass .... maybe a week or so before I can test fire

Anny way... I got 4 perfect round and 4 like this

Any ideas on what making this happen?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

zxcvbob · July 9, 2012, 10:23 PM

I'm new at this (rifle reloading) but I wanna take a guess.

Looks like a crimp die set too tight.

Did you trim the cases? If 4 of them were a little long, the seating die would start to crimp early, even if you didn't intend for it to crimp.

THORN74 · July 9, 2012, 11:10 PM

I didn't trim, but I checked all the cases prior to loading and they were all in spec ..... I'm guessing the seating die is a turn or two to low .... but I need some more experience

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

**Unclenick** · July 10, 2012, 03:14 PM

The case mouths have a lighter reflecting ring than the rest of the neck, suggesting they were crimped hard by running into the crimp shoulder in the seating die. Since it's not happening to them all, it suggests some of your cases are longer than others. This is corrected by trimming after resizing (when they grow most) and before seating. It is also the case that your bullet was designed to be crimped in its cannelure (the knurled ring) so your seater stem isn't turned in far enough to get that level with the mouth. Finished COL for .30-06 should be 3.185" with the Hornady 150 gr. FMJ BT.

I recommend that unless you have a situation you know requires such a crimp, like shooting cast bullets, you try not crimping at all. Back your seater die's body (the coarse outer thread) off several turns. Put one of your sized and trimmed cases in the shell holder, run the ram up to the top of the stroke. Tighten the die body until you feel it stop against the case. This is where the crimp shoulder starts to touch the case mouth. Back it out one turn. Set the locking collar into place. Adjust the finer inner thread to seat the bullet to the desired depth.

If you have to have a crimp, trim all cases to the same length. Follow the instructions in + (they work for other brands as well).

Ethan.G · July 11, 2012, 12:36 PM

i had the exact same problem my first 30.06 loads (actually same bullet aswell)
i bought the lee factory crimp die and just started using that to crimp instead of my seater, never had a problem since

Sport45 · July 11, 2012, 08:30 PM

Unclenick give good advice above. I'll add that even if the crimp isn't excessive, starting it before the case mouth is lined up with the cannelure can cause this problem. If the case mouth is squeezed into the bullet as the bullet is being seated the neck has nowhere to go but down.

I don't crimp anything I reload for my M1.

Fastercat · July 15, 2012, 03:34 AM

I accidentally bought 1000 magnum primers once. I've used them in .270, .308 and .30-06 without any problems.

June 29, 2012, 11:04 PM	#27
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	You can use the Quick Measure and its adapter. The inexpensive Lee Perfect measure does pretty well, too, and can also be adapted to progressive loaders using Lee's Universal Charging Die. That said, stick powders don't always seem to need the same degree of weight consistency you get with sphericals. I pulled bullets from some Winchester Supreme .308 match loads once that used 748, and that powder was all dispensed within a span of 0.05 grains according to my lab scale. The .308 Gold Medal Match I pulled the same year had 4064 in it (they now use RL15), and the charge spread was 0.4 grains, but it shot more accurately than the Winchester load. Hatcher's Notebook includes the information that choosing powder for the National Match loads one year, he tried two stick powders that he said both had a burn rate about what modern IMR4320 has. One was a short grain and would meter to a span of 0.6 grains in the arsenal loading equipment. The other was a long, coarse grain that could only be held to a span of 1.7 grains in the arsenal powder dispensers. Nonetheless, the loads that came off the machinery with that wide charge weight spread were consistently more accurate than those filled with the finer grain powder that metered weight more accurately. There seems to be a phenomenon whereby, because they can pack to a wider range of bulk densities than spherical powders can, stick powders have some tendency to self-compensate for dispensed bulk density differences. It works better for some than for others, and better in some cartridges than others. Pack them tighter and the charge weight increases for a given volume, but the flame front then moves through the powder mass more slowly, slowing down ignition and vice versa. The bottom line seems to be that dispensing with the same volume rather than the same weight works just fine with many of them. Presumably, Hatcher's coarse grain powder was one of the better ones in this regard, given the bullet weight and case volume he was using. Anyway, you can but try before passing judgment. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 9, 2012, 10:23 PM	#29
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I'm new at this (rifle reloading) but I wanna take a guess. Looks like a crimp die set too tight. Did you trim the cases? If 4 of them were a little long, the seating die would start to crimp early, even if you didn't intend for it to crimp. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

July 10, 2012, 03:14 PM	#31
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	The case mouths have a lighter reflecting ring than the rest of the neck, suggesting they were crimped hard by running into the crimp shoulder in the seating die. Since it's not happening to them all, it suggests some of your cases are longer than others. This is corrected by trimming after resizing (when they grow most) and before seating. It is also the case that your bullet was designed to be crimped in its cannelure (the knurled ring) so your seater stem isn't turned in far enough to get that level with the mouth. Finished COL for .30-06 should be 3.185" with the Hornady 150 gr. FMJ BT. I recommend that unless you have a situation you know requires such a crimp, like shooting cast bullets, you try not crimping at all. Back your seater die's body (the coarse outer thread) off several turns. Put one of your sized and trimmed cases in the shell holder, run the ram up to the top of the stroke. Tighten the die body until you feel it stop against the case. This is where the crimp shoulder starts to touch the case mouth. Back it out one turn. Set the locking collar into place. Adjust the finer inner thread to seat the bullet to the desired depth. If you have to have a crimp, trim all cases to the same length. Follow the instructions in + (they work for other brands as well). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 11, 2012, 08:30 PM	#33
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Unclenick give good advice above. I'll add that even if the crimp isn't excessive, starting it before the case mouth is lined up with the cannelure can cause this problem. If the case mouth is squeezed into the bullet as the bullet is being seated the neck has nowhere to go but down. I don't crimp anything I reload for my M1. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

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June 29, 2012, 10:19 PM	#26
David Wile Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 585	Hey folks, Unless I missed something, it seemed that Thorn indicated he intended to load his ammo on a Hornady L&L progressive press while using 4895 powder. I cannot imagine using any extruded powder on a progressive press. Our powder measures do a great job with ball and flake powders, but expecting to get the same consistent powder throws with extruded powder just is not realistic. I know that 4895 is the favorite for Garand loads, but that does not mean other ball powders cannot provide the same results while being used on progressive machines. Best wishes, Dave Wile

July 9, 2012, 10:15 PM	#28
THORN74 Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Chicago 'Burbs Posts: 543	OK .... got my lnl ap setup.... loaded first 8 rounds... full en bloc Hornady 150 gr fmjbt, 46 gr imr 4895, win lrm peers and hxp brass .... maybe a week or so before I can test fire Anny way... I got 4 perfect round and 4 like this Any ideas on what making this happen? Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

July 9, 2012, 11:10 PM	#30
THORN74 Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Chicago 'Burbs Posts: 543	I didn't trim, but I checked all the cases prior to loading and they were all in spec ..... I'm guessing the seating die is a turn or two to low .... but I need some more experience Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

July 11, 2012, 12:36 PM	#32
Ethan.G Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2012 Posts: 127	i had the exact same problem my first 30.06 loads (actually same bullet aswell) i bought the lee factory crimp die and just started using that to crimp instead of my seater, never had a problem since

July 15, 2012, 03:34 AM	#34
Fastercat Member Join Date: July 15, 2012 Location: Indy Posts: 17	I accidentally bought 1000 magnum primers once. I've used them in .270, .308 and .30-06 without any problems.