Too late to start MA? - Page 2

Any .45 · July 12, 2004, 09:24 AM

Now the main thing would be BJJ is mostly grappling, and takedown into submission techiniques lets say for instance the Jail guy your defending yourself from was a wrestler in high school and weigh 220 lbs of prison muscle. Is fast on his feet and has a good eye for people trying to get in side of him which most prisoner i've dealt with, that come into my school to learn martial ways, are excellent boxers and wrestler, 1: how do you in tend to get inside this person without getting knockedout 2: lets say you do get inside and you have him, expect to really get into a struggle most of these guys are rabid pitbulls and very strong they would fight till there dead or knockedout, since the man has wrestling technique he has considerably good knowledge of floor technique, can probably get away. 3: now he got away, is standing up and doesn't let you get close to him how do you get him into submmission and how do you win this battle....

As far as the Gracies go, Royce and his Dojo are people who have trained for years and took them years to master this art. and most the combat you've probably seen has been organized clean hardcore fighting in open space by Masters of an art. Who all eventually lost to someone. That had a diffrent style. who kept them on the outside.

JRW · July 12, 2004, 06:31 PM

"Now the main thing would be BJJ is mostly grappling, and takedown into submission techiniques lets say for instance the Jail guy your defending yourself from was a wrestler in high school and weigh 220 lbs of prison muscle. Is fast on his feet and has a good eye for people trying to get in side of him which most prisoner i've dealt with, that come into my school to learn martial ways, are excellent boxers and wrestler, 1: how do you in tend to get inside this person without getting knockedout 2: lets say you do get inside and you have him, expect to really get into a struggle most of these guys are rabid pitbulls and very strong they would fight till there dead or knockedout, since the man has wrestling technique he has considerably good knowledge of floor technique, can probably get away. 3: now he got away, is standing up and doesn't let you get close to him how do you get him into submmission and how do you win this battle...."

Now I never said that BJJ was the "Be All, End All" MA. A person, like the one described above, that is well versed in both stand-up and grappling is going to have the advantage over someone that can only do one style. What I did say was that it is necessary to learn to be a well-rounded fighter just in case the fight hit the ground(or if you needed to take it there). Ideally you one would want to learn an EFFECTIVE stand-up fighting style like western boxing or Thai boxing and a grappling art. My point was that most traditional MA's, the way they are currently taught, are NOT EFFECTIVE in fights against someone with some fighting skill. In fact I will go as far to say that if someone does have some natural fighting ability, learning a traditional MA would probably make them a worse fighter.

"What advantage dose a BJJ guy (or prison guy ) have over a Karate guy (assuming they are both advanced students and proficient in what they know) when attacked? What will the BJJ guy do that is more effective than what the Karate guy will do?

I’ll even give you the scenario:

You are walking down the right side of an 10’ wide hallway. In this section there are no doors … you can only go forward or backward for some 20’ in either direction. Coming toward you is a 6’ tall 220 lb male, athletic build 28-30 years old. He is wearing jeans, a T-shirt and biker boots. No visible weapons. As you and he approach he blocks your path. Your attempt to avoid him is countered and you are now unavoidably aware that he intends to do you harm. You are completely unarmed.

Describe the attack from here, the BJJ response and the Traditional MA response. Show specifically how the BJJ will succeed where the Traditional MA will fail."

Again, BJJ isn't a perfect art and will struggle against an opponent like this in this situation, but so would a Karate guy! Grappling in tight quarters is tough, but throwing punches from the horse-stance or spinning kicks won't get the job done either. IMO the style that would have the greatest advantage in situations like this would be an EFFECTIVE striking art(which is why you should learn both).

If you read my initial post and thought I was coming off as a BJJ nut-hugger I would suggest that you re-read it. Learning a hybrid style incorporating two effective syles is the way to go IMO.

July 12, 2004, 09:24 AM	#26
Any .45 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2004 Location: SW FLORIDA, USA Posts: 604	Now the main thing would be BJJ is mostly grappling, and takedown into submission techiniques lets say for instance the Jail guy your defending yourself from was a wrestler in high school and weigh 220 lbs of prison muscle. Is fast on his feet and has a good eye for people trying to get in side of him which most prisoner i've dealt with, that come into my school to learn martial ways, are excellent boxers and wrestler, 1: how do you in tend to get inside this person without getting knockedout 2: lets say you do get inside and you have him, expect to really get into a struggle most of these guys are rabid pitbulls and very strong they would fight till there dead or knockedout, since the man has wrestling technique he has considerably good knowledge of floor technique, can probably get away. 3: now he got away, is standing up and doesn't let you get close to him how do you get him into submmission and how do you win this battle.... As far as the Gracies go, Royce and his Dojo are people who have trained for years and took them years to master this art. and most the combat you've probably seen has been organized clean hardcore fighting in open space by Masters of an art. Who all eventually lost to someone. That had a diffrent style. who kept them on the outside. __________________ Foster and polish The warior spirit While serving in the world; Illuminate the path According to your inner light" "Spring forth from the Great Earth; Billow like Great Waves; Stand like a tree, sit like a rock; Use One to strike All. Learn and forget! " "At the instant A warrior Confronts a foe, All things Come into focus" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) Founder of Aikido

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July 12, 2004, 06:31 PM	#27
JRW Member Join Date: June 13, 2004 Posts: 20	"Now the main thing would be BJJ is mostly grappling, and takedown into submission techiniques lets say for instance the Jail guy your defending yourself from was a wrestler in high school and weigh 220 lbs of prison muscle. Is fast on his feet and has a good eye for people trying to get in side of him which most prisoner i've dealt with, that come into my school to learn martial ways, are excellent boxers and wrestler, 1: how do you in tend to get inside this person without getting knockedout 2: lets say you do get inside and you have him, expect to really get into a struggle most of these guys are rabid pitbulls and very strong they would fight till there dead or knockedout, since the man has wrestling technique he has considerably good knowledge of floor technique, can probably get away. 3: now he got away, is standing up and doesn't let you get close to him how do you get him into submmission and how do you win this battle...." Now I never said that BJJ was the "Be All, End All" MA. A person, like the one described above, that is well versed in both stand-up and grappling is going to have the advantage over someone that can only do one style. What I did say was that it is necessary to learn to be a well-rounded fighter just in case the fight hit the ground(or if you needed to take it there). Ideally you one would want to learn an EFFECTIVE stand-up fighting style like western boxing or Thai boxing and a grappling art. My point was that most traditional MA's, the way they are currently taught, are NOT EFFECTIVE in fights against someone with some fighting skill. In fact I will go as far to say that if someone does have some natural fighting ability, learning a traditional MA would probably make them a worse fighter. "What advantage dose a BJJ guy (or prison guy ) have over a Karate guy (assuming they are both advanced students and proficient in what they know) when attacked? What will the BJJ guy do that is more effective than what the Karate guy will do? I’ll even give you the scenario: You are walking down the right side of an 10’ wide hallway. In this section there are no doors … you can only go forward or backward for some 20’ in either direction. Coming toward you is a 6’ tall 220 lb male, athletic build 28-30 years old. He is wearing jeans, a T-shirt and biker boots. No visible weapons. As you and he approach he blocks your path. Your attempt to avoid him is countered and you are now unavoidably aware that he intends to do you harm. You are completely unarmed. Describe the attack from here, the BJJ response and the Traditional MA response. Show specifically how the BJJ will succeed where the Traditional MA will fail." Again, BJJ isn't a perfect art and will struggle against an opponent like this in this situation, but so would a Karate guy! Grappling in tight quarters is tough, but throwing punches from the horse-stance or spinning kicks won't get the job done either. IMO the style that would have the greatest advantage in situations like this would be an EFFECTIVE striking art(which is why you should learn both). If you read my initial post and thought I was coming off as a BJJ nut-hugger I would suggest that you re-read it. Learning a hybrid style incorporating two effective syles is the way to go IMO.