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Old May 29, 2008, 11:28 AM   #1
Bonehead Baker
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Rookie rifle reloader needs help!!

I have been reloading pistol for years but I have never reloaded rifle, so I have some questions.

1-I just bought an AR and am planning to do a lot of shooting. Does the brass have to be trimmed to length every time I reload it? It is .223.

2-Do you have to lube to resize all the brass or is there dies like the cabide ones I have for pistol that don't require lubrication.

3-Has anyone tried the new RCBS X dies that, if I understand it correctly, does the sizing for you without having to trim?
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Old May 29, 2008, 11:36 AM   #2
Wildalaska
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Quote:
1-I just bought an AR and am planning to do a lot of shooting. Does the brass have to be trimmed to length every time I reload it? It is .223.
No

Quote:
2-Do you have to lube to resize all the brass or is there dies like the cabide ones I have for pistol that don't require lubrication.
No/yes (but lube anyway )

Quote:
Has anyone tried the new RCBS X dies that, if I understand it correctly, does the sizing for you without having to trim?
I haven't

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Old May 29, 2008, 12:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Bonehead Baker wrote
I have never reloaded rifle
Trouble loading a rifle??????? Is this a trick question????????
Put the cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt!!!! Sorry! Couldn't resist.

Agree with WildmytypingfingerissoreAlaska comments
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Old May 29, 2008, 12:37 PM   #4
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I use the RCBS X die for loading .223 ammo for my AR. You have to trim once, .010" shorter than "normal", then you don't have to trim after that. Works as advertised.
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Old May 29, 2008, 01:31 PM   #5
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You may not have to trim it again, but with rifle cartridges you should always be checking the length as part of a case inspection before loading again. That's what will really tell you if you have to trim. Not trying to contradict anyone, I just thought it ought to be said.

I've never used the X-dies but nothing I load needs trimming every time I load. Most typically every 3rd time or so but I still check length every time, or at least a 10% sample of the batch.
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Old June 1, 2008, 06:32 AM   #6
BigV
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I trim all my rifle casings before reloading. I have found brand new 22-250 and .223 casings oversized. If you want accuracy, consistency is your friend. If you just want to shoot just for the sake of shooting then it’s not necessary every time, but you better be checking them to insure they are within spec.
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Old June 1, 2008, 10:18 AM   #7
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I check the size of each case each time and trim only when necessary. Always lube your cases on bottleneck cases. Carbide dies are available for bottleneck cases but are very expensive and still have to be lubed. They are used professionally to reduce die wear in commercial applications. Very few people will ever wear out a good steel die. If you have straight wall cases, then by all means use a carbide die. The only dies that I have in RCBS are for those that Lee dosn't make. I reload for a vast variety of cartridges that fit the variety of rifles and handguns that I own.
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Old June 1, 2008, 03:12 PM   #8
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Here's the deal with rifle brass, length and trimming. First off, most semi-automatic rifles will tend to have a somewhat more "generous" chamber dimension which aids in sure in feeding-- exactly what you want in a self-loading combat type rifle. Because the chambers are (generally speaking) generous, case stretch can be a little more prevalent.

Brass flows-- the metal works it's way forward and the case length stretches a bit. If it stretches too far and you don't trim it, you can run in to trouble when trying to chamber a round. Or, in other instances, if the case runs too long, the mouth can get pinched and the pressure can rise and things can get dangerous quickly.

There's really no cut & dried answer for how often you may need to trim. But there is a pretty much cut & dried answer for how often you should check for length: Every time. You can use a dial or digital caliper or you can get a case gauge, but it makes sense to check and make sure it's within SAAMI specs. As was mentioned, it does matter especially if you intend to make quality ammo.

I can't help you with the "X" die... I've heard of it, but I don't know anything about it.

As for carbide/no lube, it's pretty much a straight walled vs. bottle neck deal. If it's a straight walled case, they probably make a carbide (no lube) die. If it's bottle neck, you'll need lube and there's really no way around it. Even .357 Sig, obviously a pistol round, needs case lube-- it's a bottle necked cartridge.
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Old June 1, 2008, 03:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Does the brass have to be trimmed to length every time I reload it?
No, but check it anyway after resizing it.

Quote:
Do you have to lube to resize all the brass or is there dies like the cabide ones I have for pistol that don't require lubrication.
Yes, you have to lube bottleneck cases every to resize them (as long as you want them to come out of the die). There are a few carbide dies for bottleneck cartridges (designed for high-volume reloaders), but they are expensive, and you still have to lube the cases before you resize.

Quote:
Has anyone tried the new RCBS X dies that, if I understand it correctly, does the sizing for you without having to trim?
No, I have not tried them, but I am not sure this is accurate about the dies trimming the brass for you.
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Old June 4, 2008, 04:39 PM   #10
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No, I have not tried them, but I am not sure this is accurate about the dies trimming the brass for you.
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Nor, Scorch, are you aware of how the X dies work. Obviously, they don't trim the brass for you. Clarity is only a mouse-click away!
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Old June 5, 2008, 02:14 AM   #11
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Nor, Scorch, are you aware of how the X dies work. Obviously, they don't trim the brass for you. Clarity is only a mouse-click away!
Oh, I've read about them, but then I've also read about pro-gun Democrats, limited lifetime warranties, and the tooth fairy. Doesn't mean I believe everything I read!
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Old June 7, 2008, 11:46 AM   #12
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Scorch: The X dies do work, but not by any "magical" trimming action. There's a "stop" on the decapping mandrel that prevents the growth in length of the brass. There is a requirement to make the initial trimming .010" shorter than "normal" trim-to length. I'm only using the X die for bulk .223 reloading for my AR, but, like most RCBS products, it works as advertised.
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Old June 7, 2008, 12:41 PM   #13
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Alleykat-
Maybe I'll get a set of X-dies after I finish my 6mm Rem varminter I am working on. Of course, they would have to be better than Lee Collet dies, which I have 4 sets of. Until then, I remain skeptical. We'll see.
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Old June 7, 2008, 01:30 PM   #14
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BB for a new reloader I recommend no high speed shooting for a period of time if reloading , I've reloaded a number of years and enjoy rolling my own ammo however when you flip that safety off and see how fast a full mag will last you do not want one round in there without powder could cause some discomfort.
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Old June 8, 2008, 07:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Brass flows-- the metal works it's way forward and the case length stretches a bit. If it stretches too far and you don't trim it, you can run in to trouble when trying to chamber a round. Or, in other instances, if the case runs too long, the mouth can get pinched and the pressure can rise and things can get dangerous quickly.
What Stevens points out is correct. I'll add one more thing that needs to be considered.

Where do you think that brass comes from that you need to trim?

It comes from the case near the head where the brass is thicker. When the case is fired, the case expands to seal the chamber. At least most of it. The thick part I mentioned can't expand enough to grip the chamber walls. Under all that pressure it strectches backwards until the case head slams into the bolt fact.

Each time you FL resize, the brass works it's way forward and the case length grows. The brass has become that much thinner near the head. Repeated firing and FL sizing continues to thin out the brass until it's too thin to stretch anymore and it seperates. A partial seperation is bad. A full case head seperation could be disastrous to gun and shooter.

THEREFORE:
Do not reload cases that have been trimmed (because they needed to be) more than 3 times. That's my limit. Some may go four. I'm sticking with three. I may load them after trimming four times if I've trimmed them before I really had to.

Incidentally, on rifles that I've checked, you have to let the case grow to far more than max. spec before you'd be into the throat and cause problems. Not that you should.


We hunters with bolt actions size our cases just enough to fit our rifles in order to avoid the case stretch as best we can. Semi-autos must be sized down to minimum each time to feed reliably.

This size way down, then stretch back out upon firing over and over, quickly thins the brass at the case head (that area just ahead of the flash hole). Handloaders learn to use a hooked paper clip to feel inside the case for developing cracks, which always start on the inside.

Discard all cases which have been reloaded past a certain point---trimmed three times, or finding the cracks by scraping inside with a paper clip or similer tool.

You can't be a handloader of rifles until you understand HEADSPACE since it's closely related to all of the above.

Last edited by Nnobby45; June 8, 2008 at 08:26 PM.
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Old June 9, 2008, 08:07 AM   #16
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I have only had a couple of cases that refused to chamber. This seemed to be from excessive length in the neck but don't bottleneck cartridges actually use the shoulder of the cartridge as the "reference" in chambering? I trim every time I reload but often the trimmer just spins and takes no brass off the case.

I can see that "fire formed" brass will fit the chamber of the rifle perfectly but that would imply that the brass flows up and lengthens the neck when the cartridge is fired. How can a fired case that needs no trimming be explained? Especially if it has been fired two or three times out of the same rifle.
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Old June 9, 2008, 08:38 AM   #17
Sevens
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How can it be explained? Many, many ways. Different brass has a different "springyness" to it, some flows more than others. Different loads treat the brass differently also. Some chambers are more generous than others. It'd be impossible to make all dimensions on brass and chambers the same from round to round and rifle to rifle. SAAMI sets industry standard ranges and the manufacturer's attempt to follow those guidelines, but there's wiggle room in every dimension.

There's so many variables at work here.
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Old June 9, 2008, 08:56 AM   #18
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Scorch: I only use X dies for bulk .223 reloading for my AR. I do use Lee Collet Dies for my bolt varmint gun reloading, and get excellent performance from them.
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Old June 9, 2008, 06:55 PM   #19
Nnobby45
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I have only had a couple of cases that refused to chamber. This seemed to be from excessive length in the neck but don't bottleneck cartridges actually use the shoulder of the cartridge as the "reference" in chambering? I trim every time I reload but often the trimmer just spins and takes no brass off the case
Bottleneck cases headspace on the shoulder. That means the shoulder stops the forward progress of the cartridge into the chamber. When the cartridge is all the way forward, as it will be when the firing pin hits it, the headspace is the distance from the cartridge head to the bolt face. That's the simple definition.

You do not need to trim after each firing.

If your cases stretched that much on one firing your headspace would have to be really excessive, though I realize that some military rifles operate with a lot of headspace which can present reloading challenges.

For example, some military MG's have so much headspace (and stretch the case so much upon firing), that the brass is useless (and dangerous) for reloading.

As I mentioned, your case will not be prevented from entering the chamber just because it is too long to meet specs. It would have to be way too long in most rifles.

You should have the proper tools, which include a caliper, so you can measure case length and precisely determine how long your cases are. And how much they stretch after each firing and sizing.

YOU HAVE TO KNOW THAT. Don't know how to put it any other way.

If you get in a hurry to just load without learning this stuff (many good books on the subject) this will be just your first problem to deal with.

The Guru has spoken.
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Old June 9, 2008, 11:31 PM   #20
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X-sizer die

I have one for the .223. It does work...to an extent. All the brass MUST be trimmed to the same legnth after the first resize. Then every resize after that it will keep the case about the same legnth, within +/- .002. I haven't had any problems after about 3-4 laoding of the same case.
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