Urban camo silly? - Page 2

billtidlerjr · October 20, 2002, 06:54 PM

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>Anyway, they discussed that Vietnam tiger stripe camo was more of a fashion statement for elite troops because the dyes faded in the sun and they actually stuck out more compared to dirty olive drab tropical uniforms.<
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>I left Vietnam in the middle of 1970, and never saw any such thing as "tiger stripe camo" or any other camo uniforms. Maybe they existed, but my guess is that you're right in that were more of a stateside fashion statement....<

I saw "tiger stripe" mostly on South Vietnamese troops.

Bill Tidler Jr.
USMC Danang AB RVN '68-'69

Dr.Rob · October 21, 2002, 07:31 PM

Yeah You'd think it would look like car grills and store fronts.

On the other hand the "desert" camo worked great in Somalia, lets face it when all the structures are mad of mud bricks it pays to wear something dust-colored right?

Saw one of those "how to" shows where they proved woodland was better at night than black, again because it broke up the outlines of the body.

Real "urban" camo depends on the city. In Iowa it might be wranglers and a flannel shirt, in Boston a heavy leather pea coat and chinos, in Moscow.. well you get the idea. The whole "all black SAS/SWAT look is meant to be intimidating, rather than 'functional' in color.

Saw an unusual show about the Bosnian war where snipers shot at ANYONE wearing a uniform, or the color red. So the non-combatants often wore subdued blue or purple to go get water, etc. (sort of intentional non-camo) In fact some Balkan camo is blue and purples. Wierd huh?

On top of that, there has been a lot of changes in "Camo". Lets think about the Afghan war. Who are the good guys? The ones who wear watch caps with a big stripe of duct tape on them so they can be recognized from the air. Half our spec ops guys 'went native' to look like Afghanis, though when patroling they are spotted easily.. why? They "sneak around". Regular Afghanis just march around like they own the damn place.

Urban Camo: Lightly protective clothing that "blends in" to the surroundings. I'm thinking any "subdued" color collection of sturdy fabric clothes that let a soldier run and dodge and move in a hurry. Come to think of it, those afghan duds don't look too bad for that kinda work! Not exactly Brooks Brothers... but if it was made from the same IR scattering fabric as our high tech stuff is?

mjn · October 26, 2002, 04:14 PM

Recently, after a construction worker got killed on a highway job, we had a rash of state troopers dressing in jeans, boots, orange vest and hardhat and setting up their radar guns on surveyor's tripods in the middle of highway construction sites. Speed got radioed to the marked cars down the road who wrote the tickets. Hard to complain under the circumstances- the one guy who agreed to talk about it on TV said, basically, "I deserved this ticket for acting like an idiot"- but it sure was effective camo.

Big Bad .45 Wolf · October 30, 2002, 07:36 PM

Unless your taking a tactical position around cows Urban Camo serves no purpose.

kobun · October 31, 2002, 08:55 PM

The whole purpose of the uniform of SWAT teams, either it is all black, urban camo, or some other pattern, is to intimidate the BG into submission.
This is also one of the purposes of filling up your rifle with all those gadgets. Sure some of them makes the job easier/safer, but it also makes you look more scary.
The more equipment you can wear/use that makes you look more "professional" will decrease the chanse that the average BG will fight back.
This is a natural human response to a threat that looks too big/powerfull to overcome.
The uniform (any pattern) will also help team building. You feel more inclined to put your neck out for someone that you see and feel are on your side.
This is also true to military uniforms. If you notice, there are a lot of uniforms around the world that actually looks a bit out of place for the topography that they are employed.

K.

GunFool · November 1, 2002, 05:54 PM

A true urban camo would not be a 'pattern' at all. It would simply consist of either:

(A) 'Normal' street clothes worn expressly to conceal weapons and armor. The purpose is to 'blend' in with the usual urban activity during the day.

or

(B) Plain black to pale-gray solid colored clothing with little or no pattern, lines, or shapes for low-light situations. The purpose is to 'blend' in with the muted colors, soft light and shadow of the urban landscape.

Bogie · November 4, 2002, 04:42 PM

Quote:

This is also one of the purposes of filling up your rifle with all those gadgets. Sure some of them makes the job easier/safer, but it also makes you look more scary.

Unless, of course, you walk into a TFLer's dwelling by mistake, in which case the look at it, point at it, and fall to the ground laughing uncontrollably, choking out the words "tactical mall ninja! tactical mall ninja!" - at which point you've achieved the same end result.

PvtPyle · November 5, 2002, 10:41 PM

I have tested over 150 different patterns in about a dozen different terrains. The MARPAT is by far the best pattern all around that I have ever seen. The second runner up is the Italian San Marcos. For civilian patterns the Advantage is the best by far.

Now for urban camo, the purpose is two fold. One to intimidate the adguys into sumission (as was already stated). The second id for quick recognition. For real camo in an urban environment, try to look just ike everyone else. That is the best you can hope for.

Thanks for the kind words Correia. The jackasses at Natic labs (the guys who develope camo for the military among other things) told me they would not share their pics of the patterns that were rejected. So, I got lucky and the good Col hooked me up with the MAN in charge of special projects and developement for the Army. That includes ALL the camo.

So I back doored them afterall. There are about 100 patterns to sort thru, but the deal was I could not post them on my sight. That does not mean I cant share them with other collectors......

Rudolf · November 13, 2002, 09:41 PM

kobun wrote:

>That's definately Urban Camo;

>however that wasn't a BGS unit in the op in question.

>fwiw, it was the SEK for the Berlin Stadt Polizei. Sorry, my >spelling is rusty or I'd have gotten the Berlin part correct.

What make you recognize them as Berlin SEK?

Last time I saw the SEK (live) they were all in Black.
But OTOH, they were going into a subway tunnel cause an arab had grabbed a child from his mother and was holding a knife to the child's neck. BTW, the good goys won.

I also haven't ever seen them (or GSG9) pictured using such a scoped MP5. I really don't know what that's supposed to be good for.

Rudolf.

October 21, 2002, 07:31 PM	#27
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	Yeah You'd think it would look like car grills and store fronts. On the other hand the "desert" camo worked great in Somalia, lets face it when all the structures are mad of mud bricks it pays to wear something dust-colored right? Saw one of those "how to" shows where they proved woodland was better at night than black, again because it broke up the outlines of the body. Real "urban" camo depends on the city. In Iowa it might be wranglers and a flannel shirt, in Boston a heavy leather pea coat and chinos, in Moscow.. well you get the idea. The whole "all black SAS/SWAT look is meant to be intimidating, rather than 'functional' in color. Saw an unusual show about the Bosnian war where snipers shot at ANYONE wearing a uniform, or the color red. So the non-combatants often wore subdued blue or purple to go get water, etc. (sort of intentional non-camo) In fact some Balkan camo is blue and purples. Wierd huh? On top of that, there has been a lot of changes in "Camo". Lets think about the Afghan war. Who are the good guys? The ones who wear watch caps with a big stripe of duct tape on them so they can be recognized from the air. Half our spec ops guys 'went native' to look like Afghanis, though when patroling they are spotted easily.. why? They "sneak around". Regular Afghanis just march around like they own the damn place. Urban Camo: Lightly protective clothing that "blends in" to the surroundings. I'm thinking any "subdued" color collection of sturdy fabric clothes that let a soldier run and dodge and move in a hurry. Come to think of it, those afghan duds don't look too bad for that kinda work! Not exactly Brooks Brothers... but if it was made from the same IR scattering fabric as our high tech stuff is? __________________ You broke into the wrong Rec Room!

October 26, 2002, 04:14 PM	#28
mjn Member Join Date: November 16, 2001 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 68	Urban Camo Recently, after a construction worker got killed on a highway job, we had a rash of state troopers dressing in jeans, boots, orange vest and hardhat and setting up their radar guns on surveyor's tripods in the middle of highway construction sites. Speed got radioed to the marked cars down the road who wrote the tickets. Hard to complain under the circumstances- the one guy who agreed to talk about it on TV said, basically, "I deserved this ticket for acting like an idiot"- but it sure was effective camo.

October 30, 2002, 07:36 PM	#29
Big Bad .45 Wolf Member Join Date: March 20, 2002 Location: The dark side of the moon Posts: 66	Unless your taking a tactical position around cows Urban Camo serves no purpose. __________________ "I don't know where I'm going, only I know where I've been. I'm a devil on the run. a six gun lover, a gamble in the wind." -Jon Bon Jovi

October 31, 2002, 08:55 PM	#30
kobun Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2002 Location: On top of a big pile of ammo Posts: 148	The whole purpose of the uniform of SWAT teams, either it is all black, urban camo, or some other pattern, is to intimidate the BG into submission. This is also one of the purposes of filling up your rifle with all those gadgets. Sure some of them makes the job easier/safer, but it also makes you look more scary. The more equipment you can wear/use that makes you look more "professional" will decrease the chanse that the average BG will fight back. This is a natural human response to a threat that looks too big/powerfull to overcome. The uniform (any pattern) will also help team building. You feel more inclined to put your neck out for someone that you see and feel are on your side. This is also true to military uniforms. If you notice, there are a lot of uniforms around the world that actually looks a bit out of place for the topography that they are employed. K. __________________ "A broken heart heals faster than two broken knee-caps"

November 1, 2002, 05:54 PM	#31
GunFool Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2000 Posts: 157	A true urban camo would not be a 'pattern' at all. It would simply consist of either: (A) 'Normal' street clothes worn expressly to conceal weapons and armor. The purpose is to 'blend' in with the usual urban activity during the day. or (B) Plain black to pale-gray solid colored clothing with little or no pattern, lines, or shapes for low-light situations. The purpose is to 'blend' in with the muted colors, soft light and shadow of the urban landscape. __________________ It is US against THEM. Whoever they are.

October 20, 2002, 06:54 PM	#26
billtidlerjr Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Location: Tipton IN, USA Posts: 3	-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Anyway, they discussed that Vietnam tiger stripe camo was more of a fashion statement for elite troops because the dyes faded in the sun and they actually stuck out more compared to dirty olive drab tropical uniforms.< -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I left Vietnam in the middle of 1970, and never saw any such thing as "tiger stripe camo" or any other camo uniforms. Maybe they existed, but my guess is that you're right in that were more of a stateside fashion statement....< I saw "tiger stripe" mostly on South Vietnamese troops. Bill Tidler Jr. USMC Danang AB RVN '68-'69

November 5, 2002, 10:41 PM	#33
PvtPyle Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Location: SLC Posts: 261	I have tested over 150 different patterns in about a dozen different terrains. The MARPAT is by far the best pattern all around that I have ever seen. The second runner up is the Italian San Marcos. For civilian patterns the Advantage is the best by far. Now for urban camo, the purpose is two fold. One to intimidate the adguys into sumission (as was already stated). The second id for quick recognition. For real camo in an urban environment, try to look just ike everyone else. That is the best you can hope for. Thanks for the kind words Correia. The jackasses at Natic labs (the guys who develope camo for the military among other things) told me they would not share their pics of the patterns that were rejected. So, I got lucky and the good Col hooked me up with the MAN in charge of special projects and developement for the Army. That includes ALL the camo. So I back doored them afterall. There are about 100 patterns to sort thru, but the deal was I could not post them on my sight. That does not mean I cant share them with other collectors...... __________________ http://pvtpyle.com Got camo? Not like this you dont! " It is the very nature of power that it attracts the very sort of people who should not have it. The United States, as the world's last superpower, is a prize that attracts men and women willing to do anything to win that power, and hence are willing to do anything with it once they have it. It is racist to assume that tyrants appear only in other nations and that somehow America is immune simply because we're Americans. America has escaped the clutches of a dictatorship only through the efforts of those citizens who, unlike the Germans and Russians of the 1930s, have the moral courage to stand up and point out where the government is lying to the people." -- Michael Rivero The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed and hence, clamorous to be led to safety - by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary" -- H.L. Mencken

November 13, 2002, 09:41 PM	#34
Rudolf Junior Member Join Date: November 13, 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 6	kobun wrote: >That's definately Urban Camo; >however that wasn't a BGS unit in the op in question. >fwiw, it was the SEK for the Berlin Stadt Polizei. Sorry, my >spelling is rusty or I'd have gotten the Berlin part correct. What make you recognize them as Berlin SEK? Last time I saw the SEK (live) they were all in Black. But OTOH, they were going into a subway tunnel cause an arab had grabbed a child from his mother and was holding a knife to the child's neck. BTW, the good goys won. I also haven't ever seen them (or GSG9) pictured using such a scoped MP5. I really don't know what that's supposed to be good for. Rudolf.