Close Quarters Combat Gear for our Troops?

scotjute · October 21, 2002, 08:30 AM

What gear (pistols, knives, daggers, etc) would make our troops more effective for CQC than the standard M-9 bayonet they're issued (and have to sign for)? And why?
Keep in mind it has to be lugged around with all their other gear.

Joe Demko · October 21, 2002, 01:15 PM

In WWI, it was determined in the trenches that an e-tool made an excellent close combat weapon. The Russkis took that lesson seriously enough that their special forces were/are trained in the combative use of the shovel. So, I suppose it would be a step forward to replace the tri-fold shovel our troops are issued with something a little more suited to bashing an enemy soldier's brains out. We'd also have to spend some time training them in use of the same, of course.

vulcan · October 21, 2002, 11:19 PM

A soldier can carry any knife he wants. I carried a Chris Reeves shadow 2 in the Army. I got it to replace the Randall I lost on a night jump. I chose the Chris Reeves because it is a hollow handle design but made from 1 piece of steel(no weakness between the tang & handle). The handle storage isn't for fishhooks,matches ETC. Its for amphetamines to keep you going to get to friendly lines if it got so bad that you needed to open it(no time for fishing or fires). The current issue e tool is used as a weapon with the shovel locked in the hoe position & sharpened. I remember it was taught in the hand to hand phase of Recondo/Raider school. The most common knife carried by troops was the ole Kabar.

mons-meg · October 22, 2002, 02:35 AM

You'll get a lot more leverage out of that bayonet if it's properly attached to the end of your service rifle. Extra reach, too. Don't mess with a good thing.

wingnutx · October 22, 2002, 10:16 PM

An older Seabee told me that a compact .357 saved his ass in vietnam, on the way back from the head one night when he left his rifle behind.

If I get sent anywhere really interesting in the coming fight I'll be taking a small backup piece, maybe a kel-tec 9mm. Something reliable, but cheap since I may have to leave it behind.

ronin308 · October 22, 2002, 11:08 PM

Principles of Personal Defense by Jeff Cooper

Sifu Davo · October 22, 2002, 11:46 PM

G'day from Australia

You guys ever seen a Pesketh tool - a cunning little bit of kit developed by the Brits in WW2?

In one handy little tool, you have a combat knife, a knuckle duster, a yawara stick and a garotte - all from the same folks that gave you the Fairbairn Sykes commando dagger and swing wing fighter, showed you how to kill somebody with a box of matches or a haircomb and how to make a bomb out of over-ripe bananas.

where do you get it/ No idea - but it'd be easy to make for anyone with a decent lathe or milling machine.

Sifu Davo

CMichael · October 24, 2002, 08:54 AM

12 Gauge

Michael

Gomez · October 24, 2002, 08:59 AM

More and Better Training, rather than more equipment.

ronin308 · October 24, 2002, 10:42 AM

Gomez- Blasphemy!!! We all know that newer equipment will fill the skills void!

Gomez · October 24, 2002, 12:46 PM

Ronin:

You got me!

Just a thought, I'd like to see the Marine Corp authorize a 12-series FMFRP for Musashi's Book of Five Rings. The 12-series are "works of historical significance" that are not "current doctrine" but are useful, etc,etc. They've released 12-series of Kill or Get Killed by Applegate, Shooting to Live With the One hand Gun by Fairburn and I think they have released The Art of War, also.
They should also collect some of John Boyd's presentations and release those as an FMFRP, since they do acknowledge the influence his work has had on doctrine.

Be advised, the foregoing rambling was induced by a far to tasty BBQ sandwich at lunch. I think I'll go vegetate, now.

Spectre · October 24, 2002, 08:18 PM

dcrook,

Which fighter would that be? Not the F-111?

I and one other soldier in my company carry kukuris. Interestingly enough, just last night I was out on a mortar live fire, and mentioned that it would be great if I could get our CO to sign off on my carry of a FN-FAL (after all, it's a round that we have in inventory). About that time, the CO walked up.

I mentioned that I was hoping I could authorization to carry my personal rifle. He said, "What, like an Winchester?"

I said, "No, it's a .308 autoloader."

"Sometimes you scare me, Shirley."

"Thank you, sir."

October 21, 2002, 08:30 AM	#1
scotjute Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Location: texas Posts: 260	Close Quarters Combat Gear for our Troops? What gear (pistols, knives, daggers, etc) would make our troops more effective for CQC than the standard M-9 bayonet they're issued (and have to sign for)? And why? Keep in mind it has to be lugged around with all their other gear.

October 21, 2002, 01:15 PM	#2
Joe Demko Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2000 Posts: 1,143	In WWI, it was determined in the trenches that an e-tool made an excellent close combat weapon. The Russkis took that lesson seriously enough that their special forces were/are trained in the combative use of the shovel. So, I suppose it would be a step forward to replace the tri-fold shovel our troops are issued with something a little more suited to bashing an enemy soldier's brains out. We'd also have to spend some time training them in use of the same, of course. __________________ "No honest man needs a handgun smaller than a canned ham." Bill Ruger

October 22, 2002, 02:35 AM	#4
mons-meg Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Location: North Central OK Posts: 206	You'll get a lot more leverage out of that bayonet if it's properly attached to the end of your service rifle. Extra reach, too. Don't mess with a good thing. __________________ What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about!?!?

October 22, 2002, 10:16 PM	#5
wingnutx Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA Posts: 93	An older Seabee told me that a compact .357 saved his ass in vietnam, on the way back from the head one night when he left his rifle behind. If I get sent anywhere really interesting in the coming fight I'll be taking a small backup piece, maybe a kel-tec 9mm. Something reliable, but cheap since I may have to leave it behind. __________________ wingnutx TANSTAAFL If you choose to carry a pistol, you relinquish your ability to defend your honor from common scumbags.-GRD, thefiringline.com

October 22, 2002, 11:08 PM	#6
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	Principles of Personal Defense by Jeff Cooper __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

October 21, 2002, 11:19 PM	#3
vulcan Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2002 Posts: 265	A soldier can carry any knife he wants. I carried a Chris Reeves shadow 2 in the Army. I got it to replace the Randall I lost on a night jump. I chose the Chris Reeves because it is a hollow handle design but made from 1 piece of steel(no weakness between the tang & handle). The handle storage isn't for fishhooks,matches ETC. Its for amphetamines to keep you going to get to friendly lines if it got so bad that you needed to open it(no time for fishing or fires). The current issue e tool is used as a weapon with the shovel locked in the hoe position & sharpened. I remember it was taught in the hand to hand phase of Recondo/Raider school. The most common knife carried by troops was the ole Kabar.

October 22, 2002, 11:46 PM	#7
Sifu Davo Junior Member Join Date: September 9, 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 13	CQB gear G'day from Australia You guys ever seen a Pesketh tool - a cunning little bit of kit developed by the Brits in WW2? In one handy little tool, you have a combat knife, a knuckle duster, a yawara stick and a garotte - all from the same folks that gave you the Fairbairn Sykes commando dagger and swing wing fighter, showed you how to kill somebody with a box of matches or a haircomb and how to make a bomb out of over-ripe bananas. where do you get it/ No idea - but it'd be easy to make for anyone with a decent lathe or milling machine. Sifu Davo __________________ Sifu Davo

October 24, 2002, 08:54 AM	#8
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	12 Gauge Michael

October 24, 2002, 08:59 AM	#9
Gomez Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 297	More and Better Training, rather than more equipment. __________________ "Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." --Kruger & Dunning

October 24, 2002, 10:42 AM	#10
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	Gomez- Blasphemy!!! We all know that newer equipment will fill the skills void! __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

October 24, 2002, 12:46 PM	#11
Gomez Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 297	Ronin: You got me! Just a thought, I'd like to see the Marine Corp authorize a 12-series FMFRP for Musashi's Book of Five Rings. The 12-series are "works of historical significance" that are not "current doctrine" but are useful, etc,etc. They've released 12-series of Kill or Get Killed by Applegate, Shooting to Live With the One hand Gun by Fairburn and I think they have released The Art of War, also. They should also collect some of John Boyd's presentations and release those as an FMFRP, since they do acknowledge the influence his work has had on doctrine. Be advised, the foregoing rambling was induced by a far to tasty BBQ sandwich at lunch. I think I'll go vegetate, now. __________________ "Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." --Kruger & Dunning

October 24, 2002, 08:18 PM	#12
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	dcrook, Which fighter would that be? Not the F-111? I and one other soldier in my company carry kukuris. Interestingly enough, just last night I was out on a mortar live fire, and mentioned that it would be great if I could get our CO to sign off on my carry of a FN-FAL (after all, it's a round that we have in inventory). About that time, the CO walked up. I mentioned that I was hoping I could authorization to carry my personal rifle. He said, "What, like an Winchester?" I said, "No, it's a .308 autoloader." "Sometimes you scare me, Shirley." "Thank you, sir."