Serpa vs Trigger Finger

[PADefenseTrainer]

the greatest thing since repeating arms

That is absolutely ABSOLUTELY going to replace "sliced bread" in my list of pat phrases!

[kraigwy]

Guys, I'm not selling Serpa Holsters, sure I got a couple but I don't carry with one (I pocket carry).

The intent of the videos was safety, not selling holsters. I wanted to point out that one could draw from the Serpa without poking his finger in the trigger guard.

[Murdock]

The Serpa is what it is; no tool works for every purpose, otherwise we could perform every job with a hammer.

My opinion is that the Serpa is at its best when security is more important than speed.

It is not a rig for Bozos. Consider that in in use, the brain sends a GO! Contract NOW! signal to the trigger finger when the decision to present the weapon is made,and the lock is hit. The brain must next send an inhibition signal to the trigger finger to relax and extend after the release lock is hit, so that it remains outside of the trigger guard. During a dynamic critical incident this is very hard to ensure.

So is "operator error" to blame for NDs with the Serpa? Sure. No question. But empirical evidence shows us that the design can invite error on the part of the stressed/less experienced operator. If I were running a shooting school I would have to think hard about allowing them in my classes.

My own Serpa is reserved for situations where the pistol is secondary to the carbine, and I don't want to lose the pistol from its holster when my attention is on other stuff.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I do not own a Serpa though I have tried out quite a few of them in the gun stores, and guns shows. I can say that if your finger is hooked to presss the release you need to retrain. It does not take that much force to get the button to release. In fact the ones I tried laying my finger with a slight amout of pressure worked.

Then again some people should not be allowed to walk, and chew gum at the same time either.

[AK103K]

So is "operator error" to blame for NDs with the Serpa? Sure. No question. But empirical evidence shows us that the design can invite error on the part of the stressed/less experienced operator.

This, and in some part, the mechanical aspects of the holster are the points being I think are missed here as far as the holster goes.

When everything is done and/or working right, it doesnt appear to be much an issue (nothing ever is in a perfect world), but put stress, and a misstep or problem with the release into the mix, and things seem to degrade quickly.

For those who have one, what happens when you pull up slightly on the gun "before" you hit the release?

Have you included a sticky or stuck release malfunction drill into your practice?

Whats your next immediate and unconscious reaction when the gun isnt released when you expect it to?

While I agree, a lot of this probably is operator error when there is a problem, but it does seem that the holster can and has contributed to that in more than a few cases.

[kraigwy]

For those who have one, what happens when you pull up slightly on the gun "before" you hit the release?

Have you included a sticky or stuck release malfunction drill into your practice?

I had that problem when I first got my Serpa and started practicing with it.

The problem was, I was thinking about hitting the release button instead of just drawing the gun from the holster.

Under stress as in competition, I'm concentrating on hearing the buzzard of the shot timer, and figuring on which target I'm going to engage first, how I'm going to move to the next spot, etc etc,

So basically when I don't think about the button it comes right out of the holster as my trigger finger drags over the button. So I really don't see any difference under stress then when I'm using my other guns with a Fobus holster.

[ATW525]

From what I've seen in accounts of Serpa NDs, a fairly common theme is that the gun doesn't come out of the holster when expected. The flustered shooter who wanted his gun like two seconds ago, then goes to hit the release again and the ND happens. They may have done thousands of successful straight finger draws prior to the incident, but once things didn't go as expected, all that went out the window.

[farmerboy]

I believe the holster is great as far as secureing your weapon, getting a fast draw and everything else. If your STUPID and put your trigger finger in the guard on the trigger as the gun is being removed of course you could shoot yourself or someone else accidently. Same goes with any holster! The more you practice with this holster, the better youll be. Also same with other holsters. My only complaint with the Serpa is for a duty rig is that it rubs hard on my slide and gives a great deal of wear showing and I really wouldnt care except at my dept we have to buy our own guns. But right now I still use this holster daily and when I need my gun I believe I can have it out and available in 1 second without shooting myself!

[orionengnr]

Under stress as in competition, I'm concentrating on hearing the buzzard of the shot timer,

Wow, y'all have some really different rules for your competition...

[nhsmoker]

While I have never used the serpa I have though about trying one for my 1911.
I would have to think that most problems with peoples fingers going into the trigger guard come from one of two scenarios one being lack of practice or an even more likely scenario is from becoming complacent. I think sometimes when people do something enough times for long enough we tend to forget to be vigilant about what we are doing. That can be a bad thing when it comes to something where second chances may not be an option.

[wayneinFL]

Does somebody want to try it? It's been sitting in a drawer at my house for 6 months. It might work very well for you. PM me with an address, and I'll send it out in a couple of weeks when I get home.

FYI, the holster is betrothed to someone. As soon as I find it. It apparently was relegated from the holster drawer into... somewhere else.

[Gbro]

I have had my Serpa and blue 1911 for a week now and I very much prefer it over the Fobus holsters i have for my .45 auto's. The draw is very smooth and that is so much nicer than the Fobus retention. In fact a couple weeks ago I was doing some strong side inside the pickup draws and the Fobus was very difficult because of the angle it was in locked the gun in to where I had to open the door and lean part way out the door to get my pistol to release.
And for anyone concerned about someone stripping this Serpa off my belt, forget that! there are 3 hooks that make it so hard I am set on releasing my belt to remove the holster.
And It is wonderfully adjustable and rides higher for a much better concealment.
I have cut 1.5 inches from mine for my compact Para LDA 1911.
The Blue 1911 is very tight. I will have to do a little sanding.

[Ruger556]

The primary safety is the one between your ears...all else is secondary.

One should not have their trigger finger engaging the trigger except after assessing the situation and determining that they are indeed going to shoot.

[Nnobby45]

Farnum banned them from his class when he had reports that twigs or other debri had jammed the mechanism making it impossible to draw the pistol. I believe the reports came from combat zones.

Perhaps here, in a more sterile urban environment, those concerns aren't as great.

I have two, but will never use them.

[jgcoastie]

Originally Posted by Nnobby45

Farnum banned them from his class when he had reports that twigs or other debri had jammed the mechanism making it impossible to draw the pistol. I believe the reports came from combat zones.

Perhaps here, in a more sterile urban environment, those concerns aren't as great.

I have two, but will never use them.

I heard some of those same stories... It's plausible, not probable though. I have to believe that if something were to get stuck in the release/retention mechanism, I would've experienced it during my years climbing up and falling down just about every hill, mountain, valley, river, woods, brush, etc in Kodiak. There was a G20 or 1911 on my hip in a SERPA holster 100% of the time. Never one bit of disabling debris as many have claimed.

Following my excursions, there was often a considerable amount of dirt, twigs, leaves and other junk in and around the holster/gun. Never one issue.

Plausible, not probable.

[PawPaw]

I was at the range today and saw a Serpa for a 1911 in the pro shop. I picked it up and paid the guy. I've been wearing if for a couple of hours, and I agree that there is a learning curve, but probably not as steep as the learning curve on my Safariland 6360. Still, a few practice draws and I feel comfortable with the holster. Not as comfortable as the old thumbreak pancake holster I've been carrying the 1911 in, but comfortable nonetheless. I can see how a pistolero might be tempted to put his finger in the trigger guard. Training, fellows, training.

What was interesting to me is that from looking at the videos, Kraigwy seems to be a belt-and-suspenders guy. Interesting. Who'd a thunk it?

[SG29736]

Of course they can be used safely and correctly by shooters. The problem is though that if you just stand back and watch a bunch of shooters using them, without them being aware, a high percentage of them will be hooking that finger when they engage the release, making it very easy for the finger to pop into the trigger guard. Now, people can do the same thing with a regular holster, but a lot more will do it with the Serpa design.

A club always has to be on the lookout for safety and shooters that have a problem with it. It's just multiplied with the use of the Serpas. It's easier for a lot of clubs to ban them, rather than say shooter A can use one but shooter B can't. Mark

[kraigwy]

It's easier for a lot of clubs to ban them,

No you ban those who can't follow the four basic rules of firearm safety.

Kraigwy seems to be a belt-and-suspenders guy. Interesting. Who'd a thunk it?

I am a firm believer in "concealed is concealed" If the revolver or pistol is heavy, then I'll use suspenders to remain concealed.

[SG29736]

"It's easier for a lot of clubs to ban them,"

"No you ban those who can't follow the four basic rules of firearm safety."

A lot of clubs and schools have found that a much higher percentage of shooters using Serpa holsters seem to have a harder time following the four basic rules of firearm saftey because of the use of the trigger finger to release the gun from the holster. Some shooters find it easy to use properly, a lot don't. Shooters can find a lot of ways to be unsafe. Theoretically, they shouldn't be a problem. But when observing enough shooters actually using them, between safety issues and malfunctioning holsters, they've seen more problems than they have time to deal with. Thus the bans. Makr

[Don P]

For now all the ranges that I have gone to for competition matches have outlawed the use of Serpa holsters in the matches. Too many folks putting holes in there calf's and dupas and some have been LE doing the screw ups.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Dupas? Now, I know what that means, having lived in Buffalo and marrying someone from that tribe.

At a local match, we had two Serpa leg shoots and one guy who was so struggling with his and get excited that the SO grabbed him so he would stop.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Unfortunately there are some people that should not even attempt to walk, and chew bubble gum at the same time. Much less try to draw a hand gun with thier finger out of the trigger guard, and then bring it to a safe point before attemting to fire it. What many people can train to do safely, some just can not do it. Regardless of how much training they recieve.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yeah, like the two guys I saw ND in front of their toes with their carbines a couple of weeks ago negotiating a barricade. Scary.

[sam colt]

I have a serpa for my 1911 and I have NO problem withdrawing the pistol and keeping my finger off the trigger. It's just a natural pull and the finger ends up on the frame of the gun. No problem!

[Don P]

Dupas? Now, I know what that means, having lived in Buffalo and marrying someone from that tribe.

At a local match, we had two Serpa leg shoots and one guy who was so struggling with his and get excited that the SO grabbed him so he would stop.

Glad to have you as a tribe member even if its by marriage. Our 3 self inflicted wounds were 2 calf, 1 dupa all with 1911's