August 20, 2019, 07:44 PM | #26 |
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My daughter had to use armed force against two armed robbers , they had the money but the bad guy with the gun ordered her to face the wall and kneel down...criminals around here like to not leave a witness that can testify...she feared for her life and shot him with her concealed revolver .
There were NO huge expenses to pay....there were no expenses whatsoever to pay. The bad guy was arrested , found guilty (she testified) and is enjoying some Angola State Prison time . This is Louisiana and law abiding person's who defend themselves are not persecuted by the justice system or media . Here people still have a right to defend themselves without the need for huge amounts of insurance coverage . Gary |
August 20, 2019, 08:28 PM | #27 | |
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On the other hand, sometimes a defensive use of lethal force will have grave consequences for the defender, even when ultimately exonerated. For example --
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August 21, 2019, 08:02 AM | #28 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Are ya saying the above can't happen??
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August 21, 2019, 10:05 AM | #29 |
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Having spent my career in the insurance biz, I would be highly suspect of these standalone companies. Where does the money come from to indemnify you if there is a million dollar judgment? No insurance for illegal acts in all States. For a legal act check with a good insurance agent or an underwriter at an insurance company and see how your homeowner's insurance policy will respond.
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August 22, 2019, 10:26 AM | #30 | |
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On the more general question, I think most of us realize that all insurance is a bet against yourself. I have so far told myself that the odds of it paying off are too low to justify the expense. If I have to defend myself tomorrow, my opinion could change, but between the low odds of ever needing it and the restrictions placed on the various plans, I personally haven't felt it to be a worthwhile expense. |
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August 26, 2019, 08:05 AM | #31 | |
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represent you as well as none of the other insurance or programs
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August 26, 2019, 10:46 AM | #32 | |
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Where available, they cover only legal fees. They don't cover damages in civil lawsuits, so IMHO it's inaccurate to call their program "insurance." Also, according to the comparison chart to which I linked in a previous post, they are the only one of the listed programs that doesn't allow you to choose your own attorney.
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August 26, 2019, 10:59 AM | #33 |
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aren't there some states that have a law in which a shooting that has been cleared of criminal conduct cannot be brought in a civil suit?
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August 26, 2019, 11:07 AM | #34 | |
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The charging authority or a grand jury may decide to not go to trial. A jury may decide that the state did not prove criminal conduct beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not the same as concluding that the actor was innocent. In a civil trial, the burden of persuasion is a preponderance of the evidence ("more likely than not"). |
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August 27, 2019, 06:43 AM | #35 | |
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August 27, 2019, 08:33 AM | #36 | |
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August 27, 2019, 12:03 PM | #37 |
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No.
In some states, after a suite is filed, one can request an Immunity from Civil Liability hearing. If the hearing is granted, both sides present evidence before a judge. The judge decides on the basis of a preponderance of the evidence. If immunity is granted , the suit may not proceed. A decision to nt charge or indict does not provide civil immuniy, nor does an acquittal in a criminal trial. Criminal liability is a different matter. There are states that allow judges to grant immunity from criminal prosecution, but it is not always wise for a defender to reguest such a hearing. |
August 27, 2019, 12:24 PM | #38 |
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Jerry maybe thinking of Patel Vs. Kumar. Both the lower and appeals court ruled that the law did provide immunity to civil cases. There was quite a lot of media attention at the time. This was overturned later by the Florida Supreme Court.
https://law.justia.com/cases/florida...sc16-1457.html
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August 27, 2019, 12:46 PM | #39 | |
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Just to clarify (I hope)
The law as written does allow for immunity but this is not determined at a criminal trial. The Supreme Court of Florida ruled that determination must be made at a civil proceeding, using that standard as the mechanism. Quote:
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August 27, 2019, 01:27 PM | #40 |
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MTT TL -- That's Florida. JERRYS. asked if there are any states in which civil immunity is automatic if a shooter is not charged. Oldmarksman responded "No."
Oldmarksman, I'd like to ask if this response was based on having researched the laws of all 50 states, or if you are extrapolating from your home state's law?
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August 27, 2019, 01:34 PM | #41 |
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this is what I was thinking of. I thought there were a few more states with such laws...
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August 27, 2019, 03:44 PM | #42 | |
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https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-1...-13a-3-23.html
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I can speak authoritatively on Alabama where Jerry is from. On the criminal side they get a double bite of the apple. The defendant can request a hearing to find out if they are qualified for immunity. If they win it is over (subject to prosecutor appeal). If they lose they can go to trial and to chance it with the jury. If they win either the hearing or the case and the shooting was not determined to be unlawful, then they are immune to civil cases under the Alabama criminal code. The litigous have been getting around this by filing for civil rights violations in Federal Court. These mostly only move if there is a police officer involved. Prior to the addition of the paragrpah to the criminal code in 2013 there was a civil case of Grimes v Saban that was decided and appealed using the updated code. This was added some say because of the case involved Nick Saban's daughter. https://caselaw.findlaw.com/al-supre...t/1686584.html Grimes eventually gave up and dropped her lawsuit in 2015 with each side paying their own legal fees. In the Saban case there was no hearing or trial as there were never any criminal charges. All other states I don't know.
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August 28, 2019, 08:07 AM | #43 | |
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The Florida Supreme Court ruling would be a pretty good baseis fror study, however. It's all about basic legal principles. A plaintiff would first have to file a suit in a civil court. Only the civil judge could grant immunity from civil liability. He or she would decide on the basis of evidence. He or she could possess no evidence about why the actor may not have (yet) been brought to trial, or if the actor had been acquitted, whether the evidence would support the civil burden of persuasion. |
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August 28, 2019, 11:36 AM | #44 | |
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August 28, 2019, 12:38 PM | #45 | |
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That does not mean that someone who is not charged, for any reason, or not indicted, or not convicted, may not face criminal liability. That's because none of those things necessarily indicate that the actor had been involved in "righteous" self defense. A prosecutor may have had other priorities, or a jury, while believing that the actor was probably guilty, may have had reasonable doubt. Neither would deprive an injured person of the right to be made whole. It's just that the civil process can be made much less lengthy and costly. |
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August 28, 2019, 12:48 PM | #46 | ||
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https://law.justia.com/cases/alabama...6/1150182.html This was also affirmed in State of Alabama v. Demetrius Raishad Watson where the court stated; Quote:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-a...ur-ground.aspx Which covers other states but does not explain the process. Here is the thing though. If you lose in the pre-trial hearing a civil suit can get dropped on your head. However if you win in criminal court than the matter gets thrown out and those that filed suit against you have to pay your civil legal fees. So now most of the civil trials are also waiting until after the disposition of the criminal trial if there is one. I guess at the end of the day someone can still try to file suit against you even if you win in the pre-trial hearing and they convince a lawyer to do so. However I would not want to be that lawyer and reckon that very few would. And when the one pressing the lawsuit loses (and lose they will) then they have to pay your legal fees.
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August 28, 2019, 01:22 PM | #47 | ||||
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https://law.justia.com/cases/alabama...6/1150182.html[/QUOTE] Quote:
That is the law. But there are two kind of immunity here. Quote:
Different hearing. Different court. Quote:
To avoid civil liability, the defendant must prove much more that the existence of reasonable doubt. The burden of persuasion is by a preponderance of the evidence. That's true either in court or in a civil immunity hearing. |
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August 28, 2019, 01:34 PM | #48 | |
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I am going to have to disagree. However it will be easy for you to prove.
You would have to show me such a case where there was a criminal pre trial hearing and then a subsequent civil proceeding that did not defer to the criminal pre trial hearing. I am unaware of any such case. Such a suit would have had to have been instigated 2014 onward after the law changed. In Alabama of course. Quote:
That is not the law, that was from the court.
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August 29, 2019, 06:42 AM | #49 | ||
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And by the way, a higher court ruling becomes law. |
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August 29, 2019, 08:35 AM | #50 | |||
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But in essence you are agreeing with me. Quote:
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