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Old June 20, 2021, 04:13 AM   #1
Carl the Floor Walker
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Ammo Shortage-start with Copper.

On top of the mess America has sunk into with the Virus, and the on going Civil terrorism that has destroyed cities to the tune of billions of dollars of damage across America, de Funding the Police which is utterly Stupid and caused a increase in crime across the Country, we now have given economic control to China. President Biden say's the number one threat in America is White Supremacy. But others see a different story. We have Korea, China, Iran etc which are REAL serious threats. But how does this play into Ammunition?
Take just one component for example. COPPER. And Copper prices are going to rise. Actually they already have along with steel etc. and China now the number one buyer and they will control the export of it into the US. Ammo prices will continue to increase.

Here is a article to show how this one component will hurt not only ammo sales but just about so much more.

Why a Biden win will keep metals prices rocking!

As mentioned, China buys around 50% of the world’s copper. The country also now accounts for more than half of demand for nickel, steel and aluminum.

"But as we pointed out in a previous article, there is something off in China’s copper usage figures. The country’s importation of 3.55 million tonnes of refined copper during the first nine months of this year – already more than was consumed by China in 2019 – implies a 16% increase in copper consumption."

And China is building UP their military, which obviously requires COPPER!

This Article about rising cost of Precious Metals was actually written before our President took office. As you can see, we are NOW on that road to higher prices and more shortages. Will it get worse?
https://aheadoftheherd.com/why-a-bid...rices-rocking/

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; June 20, 2021 at 04:21 AM.
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Old June 20, 2021, 12:38 PM   #2
Ignition Override
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Nobody can predict trends, but with so much More ammo availability now, the Flippers can't be very happy.

They and retail sellers are generally the only people who benefit from the public's anxiety. $$

RE-fund the Police is the new demand in many cities with exploding rates of violent crimes.....or is this inconvenient to mention?

Aside from the copper topic, with ammo a "primary" issue (no pun intended), with $278/1,000 rds. of Russian 7.62x39 at "CLT Ammo" (Now-Father's Day Special since Friday), and fairly similar prices at Ammoman and Target Sports (?), either much more has been imported, or people are ---finally--- starting to think for themselves, and many weeks after the availability of vaccines.

Airlines can't even find enough Staff for the unexpectedly larger surge than expected in demand for travel. --- "Wall Street Journal" weekend edition---
Even US-made ammo prices for .223/5.56, 9x19 mm etc will someday decrease at a faster rate.

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Old June 20, 2021, 12:59 PM   #3
Carl the Floor Walker
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Originally Posted by Ignition Override View Post
Nobody can predict trends, but with so much More ammo availability now, the Flippers can't be very happy.

They and retail sellers are generally the only people who benefit from the public's anxiety. $$

RE-fund the Police is the new demand in many cities with exploding rates of violent crimes.....or is this inconvenient to mention?

Aside from the copper topic, with ammo a "primary" issue (no pun intended), with $278/1,000 rds. of Russian 7.62x39 at "CLT Ammo" (Now-Father's Day Special since Friday), and fairly similar prices at Ammoman and Target Sports (?), either much more has been imported, or people are ---finally--- starting to think for themselves, and many weeks after the availability of vaccines.

Airlines can't even find enough Staff for the unexpectedly larger surge than expected in demand for travel. --- "Wall Street Journal" weekend edition---
Even US-made ammo prices for .223/5.56, 9x19 mm etc will someday decrease at a faster rate. They realize that mass anxiety has much less justification, except as a means to continued profits. $$
Say what? So much more ammo availability? Lol, not where I am located. The Flippers happy? These is hardly anything to Flip. One or two sales somewhere in the US means nothing. And show me where I can get the simple 9mm for anywhere near normal. And if even available. Just curious, did you read the article? COPPER, STEEL, and ALUMINUM were be going even further up not to include the cost of transportation of these components.
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Old June 20, 2021, 01:05 PM   #4
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Carl, I've only looked at present changes with ammo. The outlook certainly is a serious concern.

What can we do about increases in raw materials, unless we own a business which purchases in bulk?
I sometimes plink with a builder - member of our private shooting club - who is working on a dozen houses in Southaven MS and Somerville TN. His comments about lumber costs were startling.

I'm driving in a few minutes to the huge county park, Shelby Farms, to jog about 30 min. on shady, wooded dirt trails.
Avoiding news almost the entire the day is a relief, as there's very little, if anything, most of us can do.
When my wife turns on the nonstop tv news downstairs around 5:00, I avoid almost all of it - and close the doors upstairs.....

Last edited by Ignition Override; June 20, 2021 at 01:11 PM.
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Old June 20, 2021, 01:11 PM   #5
Carl the Floor Walker
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Just looked at target sports, they have no 7.62x39 for sale. I have not looked for 9mm, but really do not have too. Have fun on your "Run". Wish I could do the same. Life long competitive runner, until knee gave out. But you are right, avoid the news. Nothing good coming out of it.
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Old June 20, 2021, 01:14 PM   #6
Ignition Override
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Carl- that's the problem, news gets replayed over and over...but so many beautiful faces . It's hard Not to watch the pretty ladies (oh man). They appeal to human nature just like the carefully-designed sounds, sights in casinos.

I can't stand watching reruns of "Tough Guy Joe" (because he's always protected by Secret Service) at the Geneva G-7.......reminds me of PM Neville Chamberlain, at Munich in 1938. "Peace In Our Time".

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Old June 20, 2021, 03:03 PM   #7
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A ray of hope here is the big new copper mine in Minnesota that's going to open "real soon now". Just cause the company that wants to do it has been trying to get approval for many years and every time approval is given it is taken away again...well THIS administration certainly wouldn't block the mine would it?/s

Actually there is concern about the mine polluting what is a really nifty, pretty much pristine nature area in northern Minnesota. Despite all the effort the company has put in to trying to get the mine started I wonder at what point they'll just throw in the towel kind of like what the company pushing the Keystone pipeline did.

I'm on the horns of a dilemma, of course I want clean air and water but I also want ELECTRICTY and high tech stuff. I think we could get both but I admit it's possible I might be wrong.
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Old June 20, 2021, 04:35 PM   #8
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This same thread is also over on The High Road.
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Old June 23, 2021, 12:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
A ray of hope here is the big new copper mine in Minnesota that's going to open "real soon now". Just cause the company that wants to do it has been trying to get approval for many years and every time approval is given it is taken away again...well THIS administration certainly wouldn't block the mine would it?/s

Actually there is concern about the mine polluting what is a really nifty, pretty much pristine nature area in northern Minnesota. Despite all the effort the company has put in to trying to get the mine started I wonder at what point they'll just throw in the towel kind of like what the company pushing the Keystone pipeline did.

I'm on the horns of a dilemma, of course I want clean air and water but I also want ELECTRICTY and high tech stuff. I think we could get both but I admit it's possible I might be wrong.
Dale this is a concern for a number of commodities in America. For a long time, our government has taken the stance of “let’s let other countries destroy their environment and import these goods instead of mining our own.” Like you, I certainly want us to be good stewards of the environment. We do know that ANY mine will have at least some environmental impact. I do believe mining can be done responsibly though, with a small enough environmental impact such that the benefits outweigh the harms. We cannot continue to rely on adversarial nations for resources. OPEC and the Middle East demonstrated that pretty well.
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Old October 22, 2021, 03:54 PM   #10
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Well, Minnesota, home of “the world’s largest known undeveloped copper-nickel deposit”, might not be doing anything anytime soon to ease the copper shortage.

Quote:
The Biden administration dealt a serious blow Wednesday to the proposed Twin Metals copper-nickel mine in northeastern Minnesota, ordering a study that could lead to a 20-year ban on mining upstream from the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness.
https://apnews.com/article/business-...9251df7d1c808d

Between copper for the brass and lead for the bullets I’m starting to get real discouraged.

Maybe the private space companies, Blue Origin and SpaceX can do some asteroid mining a la E. E. Smith’s 1930’s sci-fi classic ‘Gray Lensman’. Anybody know if there are copper or lead asteroids out there?
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Old October 23, 2021, 11:11 PM   #11
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The Anti-this and anti-that crowd has figured out they can attack freedom of travel by shutting down petroleum. They hate cars.
They can attack guns by attacking key ammunition components. Like lead and copper. You thought we had something with lead free copper bullets. Then there is copper as component of brass.

The USA has been blessed with many natural resources. As a paper boy in Aurora,Ill, a neighborhood street was named Galena. Galena is lead ore,in cube shaped lead crystals. I used to find ice cube size Galena crystals in the dirt delivering my papers.
I don't know what the EPA thinks about the PPM of lead in the soil at these locations,but the birds and squirrels seemed just fine.
BTW,there is a town named Galena,Ill.

Our bureaucatic idiots deem "We shall not harvest,and there shall be a shortage" Th BIG money is made by manipulating markets ,and one place that actively does that,(gets rich) is Congress.

Unfortunately, the Industries die. We used to make steel. Now China makes steel. So much for the auto industry. We don't mine much. Maybe aluminum for beer cans.
We were energy independent,just a few years ago. Not now. Oh please,OPEC, sell us some oil (grovel)

Perhaps there is an Alchemy that turns lead to Gold.

I'll tell you what I see happening. Note Bill Gates owns more USA farm land than any other human.

A fair number of those dryland farmers and ranchers retained the mineral rights from homestead days.

Advances in drilling have made petro harvest practical. Those "flyover country hayseed agribusiness gentlemen/women" are a bit in the Beverly Hillbillies position. Black Gold. Texas Tea.

That really irritates the Uber rich who figure they are entitled to it.

So not only do they shut down drilling,they attack the meat producing industry. From fake meat to the political appointees to the BLM and regulatory agencies over agriculture.

This is like watching the Hopalong Cassidy westerns. Starve them out and take the land.

Here is how its being done in Colorado.

I know this is strayed off being gun related,but shortages are a reality with root cause in politics.

https://www.thefencepost.com/news/th...da-marches-on/
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Old October 24, 2021, 04:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
Say what? So much more ammo availability? Lol, not where I am located. The Flippers happy? These is hardly anything to Flip. One or two sales somewhere in the US means nothing. And show me where I can get the simple 9mm for anywhere near normal. And if even available. Just curious, did you read the article? COPPER, STEEL, and ALUMINUM were be going even further up not to include the cost of transportation of these components.
Cost going up isn't the same thing as a shortage. I get a handful of emails every single day trying to sell me cases of ammo. SGAmmo's email today had 1,000 round cases of 7.62x39 for $400.

I visited a LGS yesterday and he had more ammo in the store then I'd ever seen before. Every nook and cranny had ammo stockpiled in it. The prices weren't good but eventually they'll come down if no one is buying.

The biggest problem effecting the cost and supply of ammo is the capacity in the manufacturing plants. They can't produce ammo quick enough to keep up with demand unless the prices are jacked up. The raw materials cost is a fraction of the price of a box of ammo. There's around $2 in material for a 50 round box of 9mm at todays prices.
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Old October 24, 2021, 11:29 PM   #13
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While you might think they're doing it so our bullets cost more, I'd like to remind you that everything in the world that uses electricity uses a huge amount of copper.

And, I wonder which nation is currently the world leader in manufacturing electronic things???

It isn't the US....I think we buy the most but we don't make them, CHINA does, in larger numbers than anyone else.
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Old October 24, 2021, 11:41 PM   #14
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https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

93% peaceful. Demonstrations are not necessarily riots.
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Old October 24, 2021, 11:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
The Anti-this and anti-that crowd has figured out they can attack freedom of travel by shutting down petroleum. They hate cars.
They can attack guns by attacking key ammunition components. Like lead and copper. You thought we had something with lead free copper bullets. Then there is copper as component of brass.

The USA has been blessed with many natural resources. As a paper boy in Aurora,Ill, a neighborhood street was named Galena. Galena is lead ore,in cube shaped lead crystals. I used to find ice cube size Galena crystals in the dirt delivering my papers.
I don't know what the EPA thinks about the PPM of lead in the soil at these locations,but the birds and squirrels seemed just fine.
BTW,there is a town named Galena,Ill.

Our bureaucatic idiots deem "We shall not harvest,and there shall be a shortage" Th BIG money is made by manipulating markets ,and one place that actively does that,(gets rich) is Congress.

Unfortunately, the Industries die. We used to make steel. Now China makes steel. So much for the auto industry. We don't mine much. Maybe aluminum for beer cans.
We were energy independent,just a few years ago. Not now. Oh please,OPEC, sell us some oil (grovel)

Perhaps there is an Alchemy that turns lead to Gold.

I'll tell you what I see happening. Note Bill Gates owns more USA farm land than any other human.

A fair number of those dryland farmers and ranchers retained the mineral rights from homestead days.

Advances in drilling have made petro harvest practical. Those "flyover country hayseed agribusiness gentlemen/women" are a bit in the Beverly Hillbillies position. Black Gold. Texas Tea.

That really irritates the Uber rich who figure they are entitled to it.

So not only do they shut down drilling,they attack the meat producing industry. From fake meat to the political appointees to the BLM and regulatory agencies over agriculture.

This is like watching the Hopalong Cassidy westerns. Starve them out and take the land.

Here is how its being done in Colorado.

I know this is strayed off being gun related,but shortages are a reality with root cause in politics.

https://www.thefencepost.com/news/th...da-marches-on/
The attack on the US's ability to produce raw materials, let alone manufactured goods, is classic Communism at work. Remember the goal isn't to MAGA, it's to remake it in the commies image... which is them in the government taking everything the workers own, forever.

To get to that point, they have to turn the US into a destitute nation that affects all because then they can ride on in with the solution. Happened to Weimar Germany, happened in Tsarist Russia, even happened here in the US after the Depression. Look at what all we lost in 1934, not just the NFA, but the Polio Kid also outlawed private possession of more than 5oz of Gold.

At a time when the US is still recovering from shutting its economy down to the cargo ships not being unloaded, the supply shortages, the chip shortage, the US should be full steam ahead mining its resources, be them metal or fuels.
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Old October 24, 2021, 11:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
Cost going up isn't the same thing as a shortage. I get a handful of emails every single day trying to sell me cases of ammo. SGAmmo's email today had 1,000 round cases of 7.62x39 for $400.

I visited a LGS yesterday and he had more ammo in the store then I'd ever seen before. Every nook and cranny had ammo stockpiled in it. The prices weren't good but eventually they'll come down if no one is buying.

The biggest problem effecting the cost and supply of ammo is the capacity in the manufacturing plants. They can't produce ammo quick enough to keep up with demand unless the prices are jacked up. The raw materials cost is a fraction of the price of a box of ammo. There's around $2 in material for a 50 round box of 9mm at todays prices.
Can't forget about overhead. Isn't it projected that heating costs are going to go up 50% this winter? You know those ammo facilities in Minnesota and Idaho require heat 24/7 for probably 6 months and if they're paying 50% more for that heat that cost will be passed on to us.

With the regulations and reduction in the US's energy production, electricity rates are going to go up a lot as well. Wouldn't be surprised if we start to see California style blackouts throughout the country in the next year or two.
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Old October 25, 2021, 10:27 AM   #17
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While you might think they're doing it so our bullets cost more, I'd like to remind you that everything in the world that uses electricity uses a huge amount of copper.

And, I wonder which nation is currently the world leader in manufacturing electronic things???

It isn't the US....I think we buy the most but we don't make them, CHINA does, in larger numbers than anyone else.
Electronic things tend to use more gold than copper; it's a better conductor and they can use less to make it smaller and more efficient. Transmission lines are mostly aluminum due to the weight, etc. compared to copper. Now transformers, and many other electrical (as opposed to electronic) do use copper from motor windings, household wire
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Old October 26, 2021, 07:55 AM   #18
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I was in San Diego a few weeks ago and just to torture myself, walked into a Big5 Sporting Goods. Ammo shelves completely FULL. All calibers, all quantities. Just to see if it was an anomaly, I went to another Big5 in another part of town... same thing. I don't know what this points to since here in Virginia, both the Bass Pro and Cabelas I frequent are sold out of everything except .17 Slim and .458 Hercules (or whatever they were).

And yes, the flippers know the delivery schedules at every brick&mortar retailer and line up at the front door on those days. Retail management could implement controls to combat this, but my observations show they can't or won't.

My LGS's have small quantities of some calibers, but almost no hunting rounds... only hi-dollar match and/or low-dollar ball.

As a benchmark, a major online ammo retailer recently advertised 325ct of Federal Automatch .22lr for $29/box with free shipping. Less than a year ago, these were $150 at gunshows and unobtanium anywhere else.

The ammo companies put out press releases that say "we're working 24/7 and making more ammo than ever before"... unless they're completely FOS, it really leads to one conclusion... we're still panic-buying everything in sight.

What does this have to do with the availability of metals? My real-world visual observation points to people still panic buying everything in sight, and blaming Biden and China. In places like CA where you need a background check to buy ammo, the shelves are full because the background check works as a throttle on sales, and people don't splurge-buy and/or can't/won't bother with the check, so there's no panic because people see that shelves are full.
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Old October 26, 2021, 08:13 AM   #19
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Regarding copper, I recall a Metallurgy professor asserting, about 40 years ago, that the company with the biggest "copper mine" of all was the phone company.

His idea was that since fiber optics were replacing copper wiring, the copper wire would be "mined" and recycled as things like transformer cores, electric motor windings, and copper jackets / brass cases.

Not sure how that played out but it was interesting to think about how certain resources could be reallocated when alternative technologies came to the fore.

DaleA - thanks for mentioning Doc Smith and the Gray Lensman! I spent many hours reading (and re-reading) all 18 volumes...
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