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Old March 4, 2021, 08:39 PM   #126
Nanuk
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Should be the difference in length between the 10mm and the .40 casing.

Just follow post#121 since you have a 10mm. Take pictures and show us. It's easy.
No. You said the force of the firing pin on the primer. That would be based upon the surface area of the firing pin, you would need to figure the radius since it is round. Then you would need to figure out how much force it takes for that surface area to detonate said primer. Either way it is insignificant.

Show me a 10mm extractor broken by this VS just broken from a defect or use. The extractor by design holds a loaded case to the breech face, the round is snug in the chamber not flopping around in space, besides it is not that heavy.

You are not going to convince me with conjecture. I am going to keep shooting 40's and 10's in my 10mm's. Just like I am gonna keep shooting 38's in my 357's. If I break an extractor I will post pictures about it. Until then, you can consider it an experiment is process. If it means that my $40 extractor lasts 100,000 rounds instead of 200,000 rounds I am good with that.
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Old March 4, 2021, 08:49 PM   #127
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Look, you can do what you want, this is FYI for other people that unless you can BE CERTAIN that the .40 will not sink in like in post #121, then the only way of firing the round is using the extractor to hold the round against the breech.

As for firing pin, you can find a way to push the firing pin out and see how far it can come out of the breech surface. Say if it can come out say 1/8", then if the shall casing can sink into the chamber more than 1/8", the firing pin will not even touch the primmer when fired. There's no way the gun can ignite the round. Like the picture of 380 in 9mm chamber, the firing pin cannot even touch the primmer if not for the extractor holding the round against the breech.

This is very very simple!!! Just take a 10mm barrel out, fit a ,40 round in the chamber and look at how far it sunk in!!!

We are going nowhere with this. Just try it and take a picture!!!
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Old March 4, 2021, 08:54 PM   #128
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BTW, firing a 38 in 357 is a completely different thing. The rim of the casing is the one that stop the round from going further into the chamber. Just look at the 38 and 357 casing. It works just fine.

If you have any question, read the post 118 and 121. I don't know how to be clearer than what I have said already.
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Old March 4, 2021, 09:01 PM   #129
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If you have any question, read the post 118 and 121. I don't know how to be clearer than what I have said already.
Alan,

I fully understand what I am doing. I fully understand what you are saying. I am disagreeing with you that it is a real issue, that is all. I was an agency armorer with the US Border Patrol for H&K pistols & submachine guns as well as Colt M-4 and Remington 870's. I have been doing this for a few years.
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Old March 4, 2021, 09:05 PM   #130
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Look, you can do what you want, this is FYI for other people that unless you can BE CERTAIN that the .40 will not sink in like in post #121, then the only way of firing the round is using the extractor to hold the round against the breech.
What I am doing is perfectly safe. Worse case scenario, the case misses the extractor. The gun does not go bang. I have fired hundreds of 40's this way with zero malfunctions. any case support issues would be at the rear, not the front. It is not a tapered case like the 9mm or a bottleneck.

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As for firing pin, you can find a way to push the firing pin out and see how far it can come out of the breech surface. Say if it can come out say 1/8", then if the shall casing can sink into the chamber more than 1/8", the firing pin will not even touch the primmer when fired.
It is not an accurate measurement to push the firing pin to see how far it pokes. You would have to measure the force that the hammer strikes it with VS the spring pressure on the firing pin spring.

Quote:
There's no way the gun can ignite the round. Like the picture of 380 in 9mm chamber, the firing pin cannot even touch the primmer if not for the extractor holding the round against the breech.

You are correct. What is the problem?
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Old March 4, 2021, 09:11 PM   #131
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No, you can do what you want, it's your gun and it's your life. PLEASE, DO NOT TELL OTHERS IT"S OK. Don't ruin other's gun just to be right.
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Old March 4, 2021, 09:14 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
What I am doing is perfectly safe. Worse case scenario, the case misses the extractor. The gun does not go bang. I have fired hundreds of 40's this way with zero malfunctions. any case support issues would be at the rear, not the front. It is not a tapered case like the 9mm or a bottleneck.



It is not an accurate measurement to push the firing pin to see how far it pokes. You would have to measure the force that the hammer strikes it with VS the spring pressure on the firing pin spring.

It is accurate measurement if the firing pin cannot reach the primmer



You are correct. What is the problem?
OK, you follow what I am saying. If the casing goes in beyond the firing pin can reach, why the round fired? Just answer this first.
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Old March 4, 2021, 09:27 PM   #133
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OK, let me try another way. Look at this picture: The firing pin can only reach so far. It's easy to find out, just push the firing pin out and it will STOP when it reach the max extension. Just that simple. Measure how much it comes out of the breech surface.



Look at the diagram. If the casing sunk in to the point the firing pin cannot reach. You agree there is no way to ignite the round?

If you can still fire the gun, my question is WHO IS HOLDING THE ROUND to keep it from bottoming out.....so the firing pin can hit the primmer and ignite the round?

This is really simple.




EDIT, I just checked, 10mm casing is 25mm long. The .40 casing is 22mm long. That's a whopping 3mm difference. if the .40 casing actually sunk into the chamber, I firing pin at best can barely touch the primmer, not enough to dent the primmer. So why the round can still fires?
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Old March 4, 2021, 09:40 PM   #134
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No, you can do what you want, it's your gun and it's your life. PLEASE, DO NOT TELL OTHERS IT"S OK. Don't ruin other's gun just to be right.
It is not unsafe. You, nor has anyone offered evidence that it is either dangerous or destructive. You are offering only conjecture.

Quote:
If the casing goes in beyond the firing pin can reach, why the round fired? Just answer this first.
The only way for that to happen would be to miss feed.

Quote:
If you can still fire the gun, my question is WHO IS HOLDING THE ROUND to keep it from bottoming out.....so the firing pin can hit the primmer and ignite the round?
It is not who, it is what. The extractor is holding it. It works, what is so difficult for you to understand? The case is held tight to the breech face by the properly adjusted extractor, it is not rocket science.

My Mechtec 10mm works that way, Glocks work that way and a 10mm 1911 works that way.
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Old March 4, 2021, 09:45 PM   #135
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Alan, buy reading some of your other threads you readily admit that regarding firearms you are a novice. So my question is why are you beating this to death?
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Old March 4, 2021, 10:45 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
It is not unsafe. You, nor has anyone offered evidence that it is either dangerous or destructive. You are offering only conjecture.



The only way for that to happen would be to miss feed.



It is not who, it is what. The extractor is holding it. It works, what is so difficult for you to understand? The case is held tight to the breech face by the properly adjusted extractor, it is not rocket science.

My Mechtec 10mm works that way, Glocks work that way and a 10mm 1911 works that way.
AH, so you finally admit it is ONLY the extractor that is holding the round when the firing pin strike.

That we are in agreement. People can read this carefully and make their own decision whether it's safe. Honestly I never even give this any thoughts until Aguila Blanca described it. It made a whole world of sense. People already complain about Glock with MIM extractor that don't slam the slide onto a loaded chamber. This definitely bring the stress on the extractor to a higher level.

Also, I doubt any gun chamber with the correct rounds work this way where the extractor is holding the round to be strike. The round is held in the chamber.

BTW, it's not the years of experience that make the argument. I have been an engineer for 3 decades, I published papers in the prestige America Institute of Physics and I own patents solely under my name. But that does not make me more right, it's the science and facts. I think I explained in detail already in posts 118 and 121. people can make up their mind whether it's is safe, it's not because of you said so or I said so. The facts is here. They can decide on their own.

Let's just end this, it's going nowhere. We presented our points, it's very clear and people can make up their mind.

Peace.

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Old March 4, 2021, 11:11 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354
It's easy, take the 10mm barrel out, fit a .40 round, if the rim drop pass the mouth of the chamber, you know the extractor is taking all the stress from the firing pin hitting.
And exactly how much is that?
See post #114. How much is difficult to impossible to quantify with any exactitude due to the number of variables involved:

Strength of hammer spring
Weight (mass) of hammer
Strength of firing pin return spring
Weight (mass) of firing pin
Hardness of primer cup
Distance firing pin has to travel before contacting primer

Although we can't quantify the force with which the firing pin impacts the primer, and therefore we can't quantify the resultant axial stress on the extractor, we do know that the force and stress are not zero -- which is what you have stated is the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk
Every time a round feeds it slips up under the extractor from the magazine. There is no stress on the extractor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk
My Mechtec 10mm works that way, Glocks work that way and a 10mm 1911 works that way.
I don't know how a Mechtech carbine works and I don't know how Glocks work, but I do know how 1911s work. And I know that 10mm 1911s headspace on the case mouth, not the case rim on the extractor.
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Old March 5, 2021, 12:27 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
...................
I don't know how a Mechtech carbine works and I don't know how Glocks work, but I do know how 1911s work. And I know that 10mm 1911s headspace on the case mouth, not the case rim on the extractor.
I have no idea about the 10mm Glock. I do know for fact the 9mm Glock 26 I have, the case is rest on the chamber, not the extractor. Here are the two pictures, the first one is the old picture in post 121 where the bottom of the case is FLUSH with the top of the barrel which touches the breech face. So that's the surface of the breech:


Now, this is a close up picture where you can see day light between the back of the shell and the breech face see (2) in the picture. Also you can see daylight from the extractor claw to the rim of the case, see (1) in the picture. You can see there is quite a big gap between the extractor claw to the rim of the case. With the gap between the breech face and the case, this means when the case rest in the chamber, the extractor cannot be touching or holding the case and holding on the case to let the firing pin hits.


I think this is a strong scientific proof at least for 9mm Glock, the extractor is NOT holding the case when firing pin hits. It's not even close.

Someone should take picture like this for 10mm. Just take out the slide, push a case onto the breech, place with a white background and take the picture. Then we can have the conclusion whether the extractor is holding the case in normal firing with the correct round.
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Old March 5, 2021, 01:50 AM   #139
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It's not especially dangerous, it does stress the extractor more than normal.

There is one low-probability outcome that is potentially dangerous. Because autopistol chambers have a sharp step at the front of the chamber, it is possible that bullet material can shave off and build up on this sharp step when shooting a round that is shorter than spec for the caliber. This normally can't happen because the case mouth sits on that sharp step, but when the extractor is being used to hold a shorter than normal case in place, that step is exposed.

If there's a significant buildup, it can cause one of two problems. It can make it difficult or impossible to chamber the proper caliber of ammunition until it is cleaned out, but that's really not dangerous.

The second possible negative outcome is for the buildup to tighten up the front of the chamber when the standard caliber for the chamber is used again. That can cause issues with the case mouth releasing the bullet properly which could potentially cause an overpressure event. It doesn't seem to be a likely outcome as we read about people doing it and getting away with it on a regular basis, but it is a possibility.

If I were going to shoot the wrong caliber ammunition in an autopistol chamber (revolver chambers are usually quite different and don't have the same problems) I would be really careful to clean the chamber before going back to the proper caliber. By the way, it's pretty common for manufacturers to warn against the use of anything but the marked caliber in autopistols while the same is not true of revolvers.

At one point I found a S&W manual that specifically said it was OK to use .40S&W in their 10mm guns--but only in their revolvers. Which makes perfect sense given the differences between revolvers and autopistol chambers. Here's the quote from the manual.

Additional ammunition calibers can be fired from the following list of select calibers.
Caliber on Barrel----- Can also Fire
.45 Colt------------------.45 Schofield, .45 S&W .45 S&W .45 Schofield
.44 Magnum-----------.44 Special
.357 Magnum---------.38 Special, .38 Special +P
.22LR-------------------.22L, .22 Short, .22CB, .22BB (in revolvers only)
10mm------------------.40 S&W (in revolvers only)
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Old March 5, 2021, 03:13 AM   #140
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When I said dangerous, it's more dangerous to the gun. Although if you use a shorter round, can you guaranty 100% the extractor is going to catch the shorter round? If it miss, the round will go deep into the chamber, you cannot clear the chamber by racking the slide as the extractor won't be able to pull the round out. You have to drop the mag, use a stick to push from the front of the gun to get the round out.

In the middle of shooting, this is a long jam and can cause your life.

Regarding to shooting .40 in 10mm revolvers, here is an article:
https://revolverguy.com/psa-40-sw-in-the-10mm-gp100/
Sounds like you need a moon clip for that and still not very good.

22, 357 shooting 38 is a totally different situation. They all have wide rim, the casing is held in position by the rim, there is no issue with rounds going deep into the chamber.

Ha, I wonder whether Desert Eagle can fire 38 rounds!!!

too bad I don't think I would get a 10mm gun. I am looking for Sig2022 .40, I am trying to find a DA/SA gun, the only other I know of is HK P2000SK 40. If not, I am leaning towards 45ACP even if I get another Glock. It's not very attractive to get a 10mm. For home defense, I rather want a slower velocity rounds like 45. It's not as dangerous in going through walls. The 10mm velocity is too high. So it's going to be .40 or 45. Or else, I would have all the answers as soon as I get the 10mm gun.

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Old March 5, 2021, 08:36 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Alan0354
In the middle of shooting, this is a long jam and can cause your life.
That's assuming you're firing the pistol in a defensive situation. A number of people might shoot 40SW in a 10mm pistol simply to save money. If you're just shooting at the range a difficult stoppage like a stuck case or cartridge is annoying, but it's not life threatening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354
Regarding to shooting .40 in 10mm revolvers, here is an article:
https://revolverguy.com/psa-40-sw-in-the-10mm-gp100/
Sounds like you need a moon clip for that and still not very good.
I get what your point, but my experience is that many people that shoot non-rimmed cartridges in revolvers are using moon clips anyway to speed ejection. It's true you wouldn't have to do that when shooting 10mm specifically, but I feel like many people using such revolvers are using moon clips anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354
For home defense, I rather want a slower velocity rounds like 45. It's not as dangerous in going through walls.
Anything that has enough energy to penetrate deep enough into a human body to cause a fatal wound has enough energy to make light work of sheetrock. Now if the walls in your home are significantly sturdier than that or the bullet strikes some framing that might be a different story, but sheetrock is very little of a barrier for most cartridges. You may get some deflection, which could be good or bad depending on the situation. The standard safety rule of being aware of your target and what is behind it is very relevant for a shooting in a dwelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8az24QNvVk
45 ACP JHP goes through 17, 17, and 16 sheets of drywall stacked together with loadings from 3 different manufacturers (185 gr Remington Golden Saber, 185 gr Hornady Critical Defense, and 230 gr Gold Dot respectively).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-lkZ9hkSro
45 ACP JHP goes through 3 sheets of drywall spaced far apart (3 was the total number of sheets used).
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Old March 5, 2021, 09:48 AM   #142
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Here is a person saying the 40 is most safely fired in a 10mm Glock 20. Mentions with all the talk of 40 in 10mm, it forgets 10mm isn't properly head spaced in the Glock 20 either. Also mentions commercial 10mm was never hot after 40 was introduced, if it actually ever was.

Disagree with his comment that since extractors don't break, there isn't an issue (bad logic). Disagree with the analogy that 38 bullet jumps to rifling in a revolver and is similar in .40 to 10mm (revolver has a forcing cone). Etc. Interesting read though.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/40-in-a-10mm-glock/
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Old March 5, 2021, 11:36 AM   #143
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Okay, here's a valid question that nobody has asked yet...

Regardless of whether or not it is safe to shoot .40 S&W out of a 10mm Pistol, regardless of whether or not it will damage the extractor, why not just buy a proper .40 S&W Pistol instead? Seriously, even now they're available at extremely low prices since they're no longer in high demand, and if you plan on shooting a high volume of .40 S&W ammo, much less using it for self-defense, then it makes far more sense to just buy a cheap pistol that was actually designed to shoot .40 S&W than it does to shoot it out of a 10mm Pistol and hope that it isn't wearing out the extractor at an accelerated rate.

Really now, you're arguing over whether or not it's harmful to shoot a cartridge out of a firearm that it wasn't designed to be fired from in the first place, when there are cheap and relatively plentiful pistols that are actually designed to fire it, which are also smaller, lighter, and easier to carry.
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Old March 5, 2021, 12:14 PM   #144
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Or CA compliant conversion barrel.
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Old March 5, 2021, 01:48 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Forte S+W View Post
Okay, here's a valid question that nobody has asked yet...

Regardless of whether or not it is safe to shoot .40 S&W out of a 10mm Pistol, regardless of whether or not it will damage the extractor, why not just buy a proper .40 S&W Pistol instead? Seriously, even now they're available at extremely low prices since they're no longer in high demand, and if you plan on shooting a high volume of .40 S&W ammo, much less using it for self-defense, then it makes far more sense to just buy a cheap pistol that was actually designed to shoot .40 S&W than it does to shoot it out of a 10mm Pistol and hope that it isn't wearing out the extractor at an accelerated rate.

Really now, you're arguing over whether or not it's harmful to shoot a cartridge out of a firearm that it wasn't designed to be fired from in the first place, when there are cheap and relatively plentiful pistols that are actually designed to fire it, which are also smaller, lighter, and easier to carry.
Now this is the best question here so far. I was responding to the posts, deep down in me kept saying I would NEVER do that. Why?!!!

Like you said, if I want to shoot .40 and want .40 for self defense at home, why do I want to buy a 10mm gun? It's just that simple. Why make life more complicated? Other than shooting 38 in 357, I would never do that.
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Old March 5, 2021, 02:01 PM   #146
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That's assuming you're firing the pistol in a defensive situation. A number of people might shoot 40SW in a 10mm pistol simply to save money. If you're just shooting at the range a difficult stoppage like a stuck case or cartridge is annoying, but it's not life threatening.

I get what your point, but my experience is that many people that shoot non-rimmed cartridges in revolvers are using moon clips anyway to speed ejection. It's true you wouldn't have to do that when shooting 10mm specifically, but I feel like many people using such revolvers are using moon clips anyway.

Anything that has enough energy to penetrate deep enough into a human body to cause a fatal wound has enough energy to make light work of sheetrock. Now if the walls in your home are significantly sturdier than that or the bullet strikes some framing that might be a different story, but sheetrock is very little of a barrier for most cartridges. You may get some deflection, which could be good or bad depending on the situation. The standard safety rule of being aware of your target and what is behind it is very relevant for a shooting in a dwelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8az24QNvVk
45 ACP JHP goes through 17, 17, and 16 sheets of drywall stacked together with loadings from 3 different manufacturers (185 gr Remington Golden Saber, 185 gr Hornady Critical Defense, and 230 gr Gold Dot respectively).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-lkZ9hkSro
45 ACP JHP goes through 3 sheets of drywall spaced far apart (3 was the total number of sheets used).
I am not worry about accidentally hurting people in the house, I am more worry about going through my house and go into neighbor's house and hurt someone there. The outer wall is a lot stronger than sheetrock.

It's all relative in how many walls the bullet penetrates. I just choose the rounds that have enough stopping power, but penetrate the minimum number of walls. I read it's a big difference between JHP vs FMJ, so JHP is a MUST for home. I am sure 357 goes through a whole lot more walls than 45. 45 is big, so it is more "blunt", it do more hitting than penetrating.

I am not an expert on ballistics, from what I read, .40 and 9mm is close in velocity, but .40 has a bigger surface area, so .40 is better in stopping and not much worst than 9mm in penetration. 10mm and 357 is totally out of the question for me for home defense. I don't do hunting, I don't enjoy killing animals unless I have to feed myself. So I have no need for really powerful rounds. Never even dawn on me to buy a 44 magnum, neither a 10mm.

I have a 20 gauge shotgun in the bedroom also, that would be the safest, but it's big even though I have 18" barrel and pistol grip.
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Old March 5, 2021, 02:20 PM   #147
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Tests show you have no more concern with 10mm than any other round.

Again, don't worry about Muzzle Energy and Muzzle Velocity. These two measures are not proving to dive deeper in test mediums.

The similarities between 357 sig, 357mag, 9mm, 45, 40 rounds show the concern is equal with likely more variation between individual loads, not actual caliber.

Don't know why this is controversial.
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Old March 5, 2021, 02:29 PM   #148
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10mm vs .40 rounds

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Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
I am not worry about accidentally hurting people in the house, I am more worry about going through my house and go into neighbor's house and hurt someone there. The outer wall is a lot stronger than sheetrock.

It's all relative in how many walls the bullet penetrates. I just choose the rounds that have enough stopping power, but penetrate the minimum number of walls. I read it's a big difference between JHP vs FMJ, so JHP is a MUST for home. I am sure 357 goes through a whole lot more walls than 45. 45 is big, so it is more "blunt", it do more hitting than penetrating.

I

You can find videos of all the standard pistol calibers going through plywood and cedar shingles or the like. 17 sheets of dry wall stacked together is not an insignificant barrier and most homes these days are framing and paneling that is meant to provide heat/cold protection. They aren’t designed to stop incoming bullets. Absent outer walls of cinder block those cartridges can and will go through the exterior of a home. I’ve seen it firsthand. This doesn’t even get into the reality that many of us have windows around our homes. If bullets can be fatal going through the laminated safety glass on vehicles they can be fatal going through safety glass (though glass can cause a good degree of deflection).

When you compare these cartridges in JHP in terms of ballistics testing they penetrate to roughly the same depths in ballistics gelatin (by design mind you) and JHPs are typically not designed to expand in hard barriers so that you can have some degree of barrier penetration (Vista Outdoors has as part of their tests penetration testing after passing through steel). My point is if you’re expecting a dramatic difference in penetration going out of the home between 9mm and 45ACP I haven’t seen evidence that this is true. Again, if it has the potential to hurt a person in a home it has the potential to do so going out of a home.


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Old March 5, 2021, 02:45 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
You can find videos of all the standard pistol calibers going through plywood and cedar shingles or the like. 17 sheets of dry wall stacked together is not an insignificant barrier and most homes these days are framing and paneling that is meant to provide heat/cold protection. They aren’t designed to stop incoming bullets. Absent outer walls of cinder block those cartridges can and will go through the exterior of a home. I’ve seen it firsthand. This doesn’t even get into the reality that many of us have windows around our homes. If bullets can be fatal going through the laminated safety glass on vehicles they can be fatal going through safety glass (though glass can cause a good degree of deflection).

When you compare these cartridges in JHP in terms of ballistics testing they penetrate to roughly the same depths in ballistics gelatin (by design mind you) and JHPs are typically not designed to expand in hard barriers so that you can have some degree of barrier penetration (Vista Outdoors has as part of their tests penetration testing after passing through steel). My point is if you’re expecting a dramatic difference in penetration going out of the home between 9mm and 45ACP I haven’t seen evidence that this is true. Again, if it has the potential to hurt a person in a home it has the potential to do so going out of a home.


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I did read article long time ago comparing FMJ and JHP in going through walls, big difference.

That's my point, comparing 9mm to 45 only. Here we talk about 10mm, it is much worst. I just do my best to stop the intruders with minimal force, not being Rambo. Just want the minimum to get the job done in home defense.

Ha ha, all the windows in the house are double windows with 1/4" safety laminated glass and 1/4" lacent(I think) that is polymer, those for bullet proof if thicker. I paid a lot of money for that.

Last edited by Alan0354; March 5, 2021 at 02:50 PM.
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Old March 5, 2021, 04:37 PM   #150
Forte S+W
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Practically everything will penetrate standard interior walls, insulation, and exterior siding. (Seriously, even birdshot goes through walls.)

If you're worried about shooting through walls, then you might want to look into buying a TASER or something, because caliber choice won't make any bit of difference, not unless you live inside a Log Cabin anyway.

Seriously, there are no shortage of videos on YouTube of folks shooting through simulated interior/exterior walls built exactly the same as real walls, and in every single one I've ever seen, even birdshot will go straight through multiple walls. It doesn't matter whether you use a .22 Pistol or a 10mm, any bullet is going to go through walls, regardless of whether it is an FMJ or JHP.
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