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Old November 18, 2019, 10:14 AM   #1
Josh Smith
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A Technical Look at the Gewehr 88/05

Hello,

If you have trouble viewing this, you may see it at http://smith-sights.com/tech-look-gew88 .


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Old November 18, 2019, 05:40 PM   #2
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Lots of incorrect info in your article . S ammo did not start in 1905 , there are headstamp dates way before that , and the dates on the German military testing . The S ammo was designed to be fired in the original Gew-88 rifle , that is why it had a .321 dia bullet to be fired in the original .321 groove bore . The 88/05 modifications were for stripper clip loading only , it had nothing to do with the S ammo . The new 05 sight was still set for the old P-88 ammo . That is why they were ground down to be modified later for the S ammo settings . Just look at an original unmodified 88/05 . The throat of the chamber was not touched was it was already 3x the size needed for the much shorter S bullet . All the s stamp means is the rifle was clear to use S ammo as there was only a .002 difference between the first .3188 bullet and the later .3208 bullet . About every military rifle made had more than .002 clearance . All if this is easy to see if you have original ammo , rifles and documents .
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Old November 19, 2019, 07:12 AM   #3
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Hello,

Before c.1894, the groove size was 0.318" to 0.319". After c.1894, this was increased to 0.321".

While the ~0.321" 150grn spitzer round was present in official service since 1903, it wasn't cleared for non-freebored Gew88 rifles. This is demonstrated by the fact that, if you try to shove a 0.321" projectile down a 0.318" bore suddenly (or, even with a long military leade,) you're going to have a bad day. The Turks experienced this when some of their Gewehr 88/05 rifles came apart on them for that reason, among others.

The original M88 round went through a few design changes, as well, prior to the re-designation in 1903.

This article was never meant to be an in-depth historical treatise on the Gewehr 88. Rather, it's what an owner should expect to encounter while maintaining his.

A quick Google search found this: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...x57-mm-mauser/ . It might further highlight the errors in some of your assumptions.

Additionally, http://www.gew88.com/ is an awesome resource. You might also check out the writings of a feller called "DocAV" on the internet. He knows quite a lot about this rifle, as well as Turkish Mausers.

Regards,
Josh
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Old November 19, 2019, 09:56 AM   #4
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Othias and May from C&Rsenal got pretty in depth with the 1888 and 1888/05 on their Primer series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeqn905ccRE 1888

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMs5RRTpEPw 1888/05
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Old November 19, 2019, 01:16 PM   #5
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The German military NEVER EVER used a .318 groove bore . You must have made up the problems the Turks were have since they had no .318 rifles and failures . Old doc is a major source if Gew-88 misinformation , the guy never even held one and just makes stuff up . I do not know where you even get some of your dates . The ORIGINAL bore size was .3138 - .3208 , it wore to quick so in 1890 1/2 they went to .3108 - .3208 , last in 1896 1/2 they went to the final size of .3108 .3238 . I own over 100 Gew88 rifle from the first month of production [ with original barrels ] through 1899 of all makers and years . The bore match the dates I posted and they match the original German records . The 1903 date you have is only the patent date of the bullet design after it went public. There is no such thing as M-88 ammo . It is known a P-88 , it had a .3188 dia bullet . I have 100's of original rounds dating from 1892 to 1912 . The S ammo was designed to be fired in the Gew-88 , that is why it is a .3208 dia bullet , to be usable in ALL rifles . I have examples dating from 1899 to 1918 . So unless all my rifles and ammo are wrong , you are . The C&R guy has the same mistakes as he just sourced GB and old doc , as you have . I have one of the largest collection of Gew-88 rifles , ammo and original German military documents there is . Old doc has NOTHING .
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Old November 20, 2019, 07:59 AM   #6
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OK, feller. Not gonna argue with you. I do know that my research, both on and offline, support what I have said, and what online sources like Doc AV have said.

Maybe, if we're all wrong, you should write an article yourself, with original pictures, supporting your claim.

Regards.
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Old November 20, 2019, 08:10 AM   #7
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Hey Mods, do you know why the title isn't showing up in this post? It's supposed to be

"A Technical Look at the Gewehr 88/05"

Help?

Regards,
Josh
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Old November 20, 2019, 08:46 AM   #8
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Repeating what doc says is not research , he does not know what he is talking about . So you are saying all my ammo , rifles and documents are wrong ? The German military amours manual is wrong ? The German military ammo test board reports are wrong ? Have you even read them ? I know old doc has not . He has no rifles to check , no ammo to measure . He did not even know what a Gew-88 S rifle was until he copied some of my writings . Show me Turk reports of Gew-88 failure due to the wrong size bullet , there are none . You are wrong on your statement at many levels . First every Gew-88 /05 conversion had the bore size checked and stamped on the new made rear sight . Second there is only .002 difference in bullet size between the P-88 bullet and the S bullet [that was made to have the least bore resistance possible ] , and that will make very little pressure difference . But as a custom gunsmith who also works on military rifles , having test fired over 100 different loads through about 100 Gew-88 rifles , using strain gauges ,,, how does that compare to your testing ? You had no idea the 05 was not a S conversion since you have never seen an original 05 rifle . People like old doc and jps [ he had two article in a gun rag with right at 50% incorrect info ] post bad info they just make up and people like you just pass it on so it will not go away even though real rifle and ammo easily disprove it .
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Old November 20, 2019, 08:57 AM   #9
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Ernie, no offense man, but it's really hard to read what you write.

All I'm seeing are allegations. You've presented no supporting evidence. Until such time as you do, I'm not having this discussion.

Regards.
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Old November 20, 2019, 02:22 PM   #10
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Supporting evidence ? Just look at real rifles . But it is your right to remain ignorant about the facts , it is not good for you to spread it around . You are " not having this discussion " because you do not have the answers to the questions I asked you .
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Old November 20, 2019, 05:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Smith View Post
Hey Mods, do you know why the title isn't showing up in this post? It's supposed to be

"A Technical Look at the Gewehr 88/05"

Help?

Regards,
Josh
I think I got it fixed.
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Old November 21, 2019, 08:57 AM   #12
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Thank you, Spats.
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Old November 21, 2019, 09:13 AM   #13
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Quote:
The 8x57 has gone through a couple of bore diameters as well as a few aliases. The original bore diameter for the 8x57—prior to 1905—was .318”, and it came to be known as the “J” bore.There are two versions of the 8x57mm Mauser cartridge. The original version of this cartridge, the 8x57mm (J), was designed for use with .318” diameter bullets. Funny enough, that “J” bore is a misnomer; the name is derived from U.S Army intelligence at the end of World War I, and an ornate letter “I”—for Infanterie—was mistaken for a “J”, but the name stuck, even throughout Europe. In 1905, the German Army adopted the “S” bore, this time indicating the lighter spitzer bullet used in the revised loading. The new bore diameter was, and still is .323”, and became the standard diameter for all 8mm cartridges to this day.
https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...t-8x57-mauser/

-----

Quote:
In 1888, the German military adopted the Commission 88 rifle and M/88 cartridge, neither being of Mauser design. The new rifle featured a Mannlicher style box magazine and fired a smokeless cartridge with a rimless case head, a defining point in the history of cartridge design. The M/88 is credited as the first smokeless, rimless cartridge. Groove diameter of the Commission 88 rifle barrel was .318” ( 7.92mm), matching the projectile diameter of .318 while land diameter was .312. The M/88 was initially loaded with a 226 grain round nose bullet at a velocity of 2100fps. The cartridge immediately became popular with German hunters and in its commercial guise was designated either 8x57I, I showing the cartridge’s Infantry derivative, or 8x57J, which some historical authorities quote as being Gothic for the letter I and therefore interchangeable. A Rimmed version of the 8x57I or J cartridge also became popular with German hunters for use in double rifles, this bore the designation 8x57IR or JR.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...JS+Mauser.html

-----

Quote:
There are two versions of the 8x57mm Mauser cartridge. The original version of this cartridge, the 8x57mm (J), was designed for use with .318” diameter bullets.
https://www.nosler.com/8x57mm-js-mauser

-----

I can understand thinking you know more than some gunwriters, as a few seem to be full of it.

However, when you start questioning sources like Nosler Bullets, you begin sounding a bit... foolish.

Do you now, or have you ever, owned an assault wheelbarrow? You seem somewhat familiar.

Regards,
Josh
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Old November 21, 2019, 02:31 PM   #14
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Yes the gun writers have no idea what they are talking about . Here is 1905 again , you yourself just said that was wrong . The German military NEVER used the term J [ or I ] for a bore nor ammo . Just look at any German ammo boxes or military documents . A bore with a .312 land and a .318 groove would have no rifling [ .oo3 per side ] . German P-88 ammo had a .3188 dia bullet , just measure some . A long bearing surface of a bullet larger than groove size would not work . They knew that as they were already making 8mm rifles before the G-88 with undersized bullets. S was never a bore size , the .323 bore size is clearly called the Z bore in German documents and that it came out in 1896 1/2 . All Norma says is that they were two loadings of the 8mm , one having a .318 bullet , that is true . Most gunwriters have no idea about military rifles . Mike V [ the duck of death ] wrote about the 8mm saying " the Germans turned the world on it's ear when they invented the spritzer bullet in 1905 " . Even though the French 8mm Lebel issue ammo was a spritzer in the 1890's . Clearly he had no idea . In your article quotes above the one says 7.92mm = .318 groove . It does not , just do math . The 7.92 or 7.91 and so on was the BORE dia and it was stamped on Gew-88/05's . He says the German I and J are interchangeable . My friend with a masters degree from a German college in Imperial German laughed and said that is not the case . All of that is a perfect example of the BS floating around . Look at old US army reports and OLD reloading manuals ,they knew the groove was .321 .
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Old November 21, 2019, 07:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Yes the gun writers have no idea what they are talking about.


Here is 1905 again , you yourself just said that was wrong. The German military NEVER used the term J [ or I ] for a bore nor ammo. Just look at any German ammo boxes or military documents.

A bore with a .312 land and a .318 groove would have no rifling [0.003" per side]. German P-88 ammo had a .3188 dia bullet, just measure some.
Grooves were 0.319" before 1894 (if I recall correctly). After that date, they bumped the bullet diameter to 0.321".

Quote:
A long bearing surface of a bullet larger than groove size would not work.
Why not? I've done it with 7.62x54R.

Quote:
They knew that as they were already making 8mm rifles before the G-88 with undersized bullets.
Like 0.318"-0.319"?

Quote:
S was never a bore size , the .323 bore size is clearly called the Z bore in German documents and that it came out in 1896 1/2.
No, "S" stood for "Spitzgeschoss," which was what was introduced in the 7.92x57IS round.

Quote:
All Norma says is that they were two loadings of the 8mm , one having a .318 bullet, that is true.
Then why are you arguing it? The groove diameter was 0.319" before 1894. I may have said 0.318", and, if I did, it was a typo.

Quote:
Most gunwriters have no idea about military rifles . Mike V [ the duck of death ] wrote about the 8mm saying " the Germans turned the world on it's ear when they invented the spritzer bullet in 1905". Even though the French 8mm Lebel issue ammo was a spritzer in the 1890's. Clearly he had no idea.
Balle D, yes. That's a given. c1898.

Quote:
In your article quotes above the one says 7.92mm = .318 groove . It does not , just do math . The 7.92 or 7.91 and so on was the BORE dia and it was stamped on Gew-88/05's.
It's 0.312", which is the land diameter, yes.

Quote:
He says the German I and J are interchangeable . My friend with a masters degree from a German college in Imperial German laughed and said that is not the case.
It's an "I". It's always been an "I". The mistake came the way it was written. It looked like an English "J".

Quote:
All of that is a perfect example of the BS floating around . Look at old US army reports and OLD reloading manuals ,they knew the groove was 0.321.
... after 1894.

Josh
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Old November 22, 2019, 09:59 AM   #16
ernie8
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It the groove dia was .318 why are there no guns in existence with a German barrel and .318 ? Why do all my many rifles made before 1894 with the original barrels [ if you know how you can read the proofs to see it is an original barrel ] ALL have .321 groove barrels ? Where did you get the 1894 date anyway , it is not a date for anything .Why do all rifles in existence match what I say and none match what you say ? Russian barrels , like ALL military barrel of the time , are made oversize for the bullets . You should learn how to measure barrels , it would help you out . I keep proving you and your articles wrong , but you do not care . That is up to you if you want to remain ignorant on the subject . But hopefully enough people will just ignore the misinformation you are determined to repeat .
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Old November 22, 2019, 10:02 AM   #17
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The 8x57 IS was replacing the 8x57I in 1904/05 and has a 0.1mm larger bullet. Ammo with IS projectile had a black ring around the primer.

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,92_×_57_mm

Quote:
He says the German I and J are interchangeable . My friend with a masters degree from a German college in Imperial German laughed and said that is not the case
They are not interchangeable, they are the same in this case. J stands for Infantrie and is written in Altdeutsch, sonst erkläre mir bitte mal den Unterschied, du Schlaumeier.

Quote:
Da 1888 zunächst das kleinere Kaliber eingeführt war und sehr bald Jagdwaffen dafür entwickelt worden waren, bestanden ab 1905 zwei sehr ähnliche Kaliber nebeneinander, die aber nicht willkürlich getauscht werden dürfen. Zwar kann man aus dem Lauf für die 8×57-mm-IS-Patronen die 8 × 57 I verschießen, jedoch aus dem Lauf mit dem geringeren Zugmaß nicht das größere Kaliber 8 × 57 IS, da dies zu einer Laufsprengung führen kann. Daher sollte 1939 die Normalisierungsverordnung hier Ordnung bringen.
Short version, you can shoot 8x57I ammo out of 8x57IS but not 8x57IS out of a barrel in 8x57I.

Last edited by PzGren; November 22, 2019 at 10:16 AM.
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Old November 22, 2019, 10:40 AM   #18
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It the groove dia was .318 why are there no guns in existence with a German barrel and .318?
I don't know that there aren't. You don't know that there aren't.

Quote:
Why do all my many rifles made before 1894 with the original barrels [ if you know how you can read the proofs to see it is an original barrel ] ALL have .321 groove barrels ?
Do they? Provide proof.

Where did you get the 1894 date anyway , it is not a date for anything .Why do all rifles in existence match what I say and none match what you say ?

Quote:
Russian barrels , like ALL military barrel of the time , are made oversize for the bullets.
Not all. In fact, my favorite Mosin slugs out to 0.311". I put some 0.312" long bearing 180grn bullets through it to find out how they handled.

Quote:
You should learn how to measure barrels , it would help you out.
Slugging barrels is a thing, dude.


Quote:
I keep proving you and your articles wrong , but you do not care.
You've proven nothing wrong. You've not offered one shred of tangible evidence. All it would take is a picture posted of these original blueprints you claim to use. However, you're claiming that you -- and only you -- are a fount of knowledge, whereas the established authorities -- including Nosler -- are wrong.

All this, without a shred of evidence on your part.


Quote:
That is up to you if you want to remain ignorant on the subject. But hopefully enough people will just ignore the misinformation you are determined to repeat.
On the contrary, I love to learn. However, I'm very choosy about my sources. I'm not going to use some anonymous feller on the Internet as a source, who claims all the established sources are wrong, especially when he doesn't provide proof in the form of a scanned vintage document, or even a scanned and micrometered slug.

Is your name John Melvin Davis?
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Old December 4, 2019, 11:23 AM   #19
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We have this argument here every couple years, but to reemphasize, the I/J controversy comes from the fraktur font used to print German in the later half of the 19th century, attached. The I and J are identical but for the height, and the difference there is marginal.
Attached Images
File Type: png fette-fraktur-capital.png (58.3 KB, 7 views)
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