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Old November 28, 2019, 11:00 AM   #126
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I'm new to owning a revolver, and I'm not asking this question to start any fights. But I noticed that amongst semi auto carriers, you get a range of heated opinions over whether 7 rounds, 15 rounds, or 30 rounds are ever "enough"

Given that a CCW revolver carries maybe 7 at most, depending on caliber, with 5 being typical -- and reloads are much more challenging even with practice -- do revolver carriers just have a different philosophy of what counts as "enough?"
I think it usually has to do with how much weight and bulk they want to carry for the manner in which they choose to dress, any gun better than none. I can take it a step further with either a custom GP100 in 41 Special that holds 6 or a 32 Federal Magnum that holds 6 of a subsonic reload or 32 H&R Magnum hollow points. One is trying to make big holes, while the other is the smaller, lighter gun. Neither is a pocket gun but I do own two in that category, one of them carried in my go bag (guy purse) in addition to my carry gun. That go bag has more ammo for either gun. I also have a speed strip in a belt holder.

One gun in my carry rotation is a single stack XDE 9mm, which holds 8+1 or 9+1 with the extended mag that reduces concealability. I carry an additional mag in tactical pants.

Bare minimum, I have an ultralight Smith 637 that holds 5, my better-than-none gun when warranted. That is the gun I always have in the go bag but can be IWB or pocket carried. I mean, what do you carry when you walk the dog in your pajamas? That could be that little 38 or a P40 in a shoulder rig.
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Old November 28, 2019, 11:01 AM   #127
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Big mean animal?

Big mean animal? :What sort of monstrous animal are we speaking?
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Old November 28, 2019, 11:12 AM   #128
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Hi-cap semiautos may be fired spray-and-pray, while a revolver can be much more deliberate and ammo-efficient, with all due respect to those especially proficient with a semi-auto. In a way, that tends toward evening the score between the revolver and the semiauto in terms of round count capability.
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Old November 28, 2019, 11:37 AM   #129
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Hi-cap semiautos may be fired spray-and-pray, while a revolver can be much more deliberate and ammo-efficient, with all due respect to those especially proficient with a semi-auto.
Maybe--sometimes.

But--if an attacker is closing at five meters per second at close range, and the small critical body parts are internal, invisible, moving , and will be struck only as a matter of probability and the number of rounds that enter the body, how could a revolver shooter be more "deliberate" and end up standing?
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Old November 28, 2019, 11:59 AM   #130
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My concealed carry revolver is a .357 magnum w/ 4" barrel loaded with hollow point deer hunting rounds.
I'm not that good with a pistol, but I figure if I can get one decent hit, it's gonna cause some trouble for that which I wish to stop. If there's more than one attacker, I might need to be a little careful on shooting, but one attacker should be taken care of with 6 shots. If I need more than that, maybe I stink or maybe I needed more than a pistol for the heinous gunfight I apparently got myself into.

My other concealed carry is a 15 shot .380 loaded with traditional round nose FMJ bullets.
A well placed hit or multiple decently placed hits should get the job done for one attacker. In the event of more than one attacker or if I need to suppress, I have excess ammo to get the job done.
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Old November 28, 2019, 12:15 PM   #131
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So would I--if I were endangered by a large animal.
Assuming the proper bullet selection is made, why would you prefer one over the other? I under stand you responded to his statement but I prefer 5 or 6 44 mags to 15 9mm's. probably a more reasonable comparison.

Bottom line, is the well placed shot.
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Old November 28, 2019, 01:18 PM   #132
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Assuming the proper bullet selection is made, why would you prefer one over the other?
I think that's the key. If you could find a bullet made for very aggressive expansion and penetration limited to around 14", then it probably wouldn't be a bad choice for self-defense against humans. But not with tough bullets designed for deep penetration.
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Old November 28, 2019, 06:25 PM   #133
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I think it usually has to do with how much weight and bulk they want to carry for the manner in which they choose to dress, any gun better than none. I can take it a step further with either a custom GP100 in 41 Special that holds 6 or a 32 Federal Magnum that holds 6 of a subsonic reload or 32 H&R Magnum hollow points. One is trying to make big holes, while the other is the smaller, lighter gun. Neither is a pocket gun but I do own two in that category, one of them carried in my go bag (guy purse) in addition to my carry gun. That go bag has more ammo for either gun. I also have a speed strip in a belt holder.

One gun in my carry rotation is a single stack XDE 9mm, which holds 8+1 or 9+1 with the extended mag that reduces concealability. I carry an additional mag in tactical pants.

Bare minimum, I have an ultralight Smith 637 that holds 5, my better-than-none gun when warranted. That is the gun I always have in the go bag but can be IWB or pocket carried. I mean, what do you carry when you walk the dog in your pajamas? That could be that little 38 or a P40 in a shoulder rig.
The XDE is an underrated firearm. Too many people are terrified of a double action trigger and have been told it's impossible to achieve accuracy with anything above 6 lb.

The XDE is hardly a fantastic trigger but it's not bad and I appreciate having that extra pressure between me and the first shot. I've been shooting DA/SA semi auto for years, Beretta 92 and CZ P-07. I always shoot more in DA than SA.

that may be why when I picked up my first J frame revolver only a few weeks ago, I was able to be fairly accurate with it out to 10 yards without very much practice. If anything, the trigger is actually smoother than those on most of the semi-autos.
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Old November 28, 2019, 06:53 PM   #134
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When you compare a 124 grain 9mm +P out of a full sized gun, to a 125 grain .357 magnum out of a 2" and/or 1 7/8 " barrel, the 9mm is right there with it & there's no way the 5 shot & an extra speedloader - which still leaves you short of what the 9 can hold - come anywhere close to being a carriable.
What you said, in part.

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What part of my initial post is out of your grasp - or - are you just trying to be a jerk?

To repeat - I said a full sized Browning Hi Power is nearly the exact same size as a S&W M 66 2" barrel.

Take it as you want....
Not trying to be a jerk, but apparently succeeding. I noticed the size comparison between my fullsize Glock 357 Sig, S&W Model 13 " and a 1911 commander.

Yep, the Glock and and extra mag is nicer to carry than the 6 gun and speed loaders. The only time I carry the J frame is as a BUG also known as a 2nd gun.

To be honest this whole subject seems like a recipe for banning standard capacity mags.
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Old November 28, 2019, 06:55 PM   #135
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Hi-cap semiautos may be fired spray-and-pray, while a revolver can be much more deliberate and ammo-efficient, with all due respect to those especially proficient with a semi-auto. In a way, that tends toward evening the score between the revolver and the semiauto in terms of round count capability.
Us old revolver shooters shoot hi cap semi's the same way as we do revolvers, just less reloading.
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Old November 28, 2019, 07:13 PM   #136
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I think that's the key. If you could find a bullet made for very aggressive expansion and penetration limited to around 14", then it probably wouldn't be a bad choice for self-defense against humans. But not with tough bullets designed for deep penetration.
Which is the issue with the 44 magnum. There are so many options. I like the 200 grain Speed Gold Dots over win 296.
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Old November 28, 2019, 07:46 PM   #137
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I made the comment in one forum that my G23 was no wider nor longer than the revolver in question. The reply was the Glock is boxy forward of the trigger guard. How can you argue with observations like that.

Some people do not need guns. A guy showed me a high condition Colt Pocket Positive in 32 S&W. I asked him if it were a family piece. No, he replied explaining a citizen had attempted to rob him. When asked, he continued that he punched him,the robber, out and took the revolver. What happened to the gunman? Last seen, he was crawling on his hands and knees trying to get away. I'm thinking that punch may have been minimized. Point of the story is not to wave a gun at somebody as a threat even if it's a J frame Smith.

I'm not a Glock fanboy but do find the guns very satisfactory for what they were made. That is a combat firearm. I was reading the latest edition of gun rag testing. For real, the number of Glock knockoff is unbelievable.
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Old November 28, 2019, 08:15 PM   #138
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I have carried a single action revolver, daily, for over 15 years. Started carrying daily after I had one too many knives pulled on me. Had to pull a gun out five times after that but never had to shoot anyone. Made a dog change his mind once when every shot put dirt in his face..(it was a young girls dog and I am glad I didn't have to kill it)....he stopped on his last chance, killed several rattlesnakes in the yard. Even had a neighbor even yell at me once if I had my gun on me to come shoot a snake...I did. Hope to never have to even point one at a human, but if I do, it's the gun I know how to use.

The first handgun I ever noticed shooting more than 6 rounds was while watching Lethal Weapon (1987). After that I wanted a Beretta 92F - 9x19mm, but always wanted a 1911 but never owned either. My wife owns several semi-autos and I do carry one on occasions, but my main weapon is my brain.

There is no sense in cops being outgunned, even the playing field....carry enough for the fight but I use what I want...mainly because I don't go looking for one.

If you ever see an old man carrying a well worn single action army, I suggest you leave him alone! He knows how to use more than just the gun.
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Old November 28, 2019, 09:35 PM   #139
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Capacity is for missing a lot, OR hitting a lot of enemies. NOT for covering fire if you are not in open war. If you miss a lot you will probably be in a lot of trouble because every bullet you fire WILL hit...........something. Things other then your enemy or your own property will be a legal lever for a cop to arrest you and your government to prosecute you.

Maybe revolver shooters are a bit old-fashioned and maybe being old means many can shoot well because of a lot of years in doing it.

Just something to consider. Not a premise based on a mountain of documented info, but speaking only for myself, I do not feel a bit under-armed when I am carrying my revolver.

I carry them a lot. More times I am carrying an auto, but if I were to guess, I'd say about 40% of the time I have a revolver. It's not uncommon for me to kill running animals with my revolvers from jack rabbits, coyotes, foxes and skunks, and quite a few deer, antelope and elk. All counted I would say about 30 head of big game. I shoot revolvers very well, and on bigger target (deer size) I have not missed a shot yet. Of those I have killed about 1/2 were killed on the run.

The gun you carry is only as good as the skill with which you use it. Most of my autos have good sized mags. But when I fire I think of every round as if it';s the only one I'll get.
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Old November 28, 2019, 10:09 PM   #140
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I practice out to 25 yards. That’s the length of a store aisle. Considering what has happened AT Walmart in Texas, It’s not out of the realm of reality. But your, right, about aimed shooting. It is not something spontaneous, either.

I point shoot out to 10 yards. I can point shoot from the hip to 7 yards. I can also shoot with either hand. Shooting out of the pocket is something you can do with a revolver, also.

I’m just saying that One needs to be able to widen the possibilities and not be fixed in the paradigm of just one person attacking at bad breath distances these days.


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I was beginning to think "sensibility" was becoming something else we have lost. Nice to see some do understand. It is amazing how some look at you like you have a third eye when you bring up the aisle length at the market too. Its even funnier when you tell them across the front of the store, or back to front is nearly a 100, if not more.

And just when "isnt" someone shooting at you from 25 yards not a threat? You really do have to wonder where some people's heads are sometimes?

Truthfully, I think many dont really practice much beyond the basics a whole lot, and getting 3 good hits from the holster at 3 yards in 3 seconds while moving offline (you werent planning on standing still? Were you?), might be a challenge. Especially if theyve never done it before. And thats just what you're told you'll ever need, according to the statistics. 25 yards with what a lot of people seem to carry these days, probably does sound like an improbability, if not an impossibility.

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Old November 29, 2019, 05:04 AM   #141
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The reason that many people stay at 7 yards is that you can cover their groups at twenty-five yards with an average screen door.

Added: What if the bad guy is armed at 25 yards with an 870 12ga. with deer barrel with open sights? How about a Mini-14 at that range?
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Old November 29, 2019, 08:44 AM   #142
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And just when "isnt" someone shooting at you from 25 yards not a threat? You really do have to wonder where some people's heads are sometimes?
That is a tremendous assertion for someone to have made. Maybe I missed it.

Who made that assertion?
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Old November 29, 2019, 09:12 AM   #143
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@Stihlkicking, interesting anecdote on using a handgun for dealing with putting down large livestock. When I was a kid sometimes we would watch them processing livestock and they always put them down with a single shot 22 RF using shorts and they would drop a cow or hog like a sack of potatoes. They just put the barrel a couple inches from them right between the eyes and that's all it took. My mom would send me there with a quart jar to collect pig blood for making Blood Klub, a Norwegian delicacy which is basically a dumpling made with blood. That's why I was present as things were taking place. They would pop the hog, hang it, slit it's throat and I would just fill the jar as the blood drained. I learned not to be squeamish at a pretty early age.

Yes .22 were used pretty extensively in slaughter houses where animals were to be bled. .22 would render an Animal unconscious then it’s throat would be swiftly cut to allow the heart to pump out as much blood as possible. The .22 was good for this purpose but not so good for cleanly killing an animal. Today the .22 has been largely replaced in slaughter houses with electric shock and the pneumatic hammer.
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Old November 29, 2019, 09:14 AM   #144
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Maybe--sometimes.

But--if an attacker is closing at five meters per second at close range, and the small critical body parts are internal, invisible, moving , and will be struck only as a matter of probability and the number of rounds that enter the body, how could a revolver shooter be more "deliberate" and end up standing?
Maybe because he is not counting on so many chances. It can be surprising how fast one can think when firing.
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Old November 29, 2019, 09:51 AM   #145
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They problem is not the guns or how many rounds they hold. It's the mindset they create among those with little or no training. People whose only frame of reference is Die Hard or Call of Duty. Plus, they're fun! No on can deny that it's fun to shoot a 9mm pistol that holds 20 rounds. Then what happens at the range, happens in a violent confrontation. Magazines get dumped, accuracy goes out the window. When you only have five or six rounds you must be more deliberate.
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Old November 29, 2019, 10:11 AM   #146
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Maybe because he is not counting on so many chances.
The defender's expectations will not make any one apparently "good" hit any more likely to be strike a critical body part..

Quote:
It can be surprising how fast one can think when firing.
Speed of cognition can help recognize the threat and lead to a faster draw, but it cannot make fewer hits more effective.

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When you only have five or six rounds you must be more deliberate.
When you have only a second and a half available to you, deliberation is not an option.
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Old November 29, 2019, 10:31 AM   #147
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Seems argumentative, more quibbles than compelling points. More important is what a person is willing to carry. I think a miniature semiauto is a disaster about to happen. I recall doing a bug gun stage once, instructed to fire 5 rounds as fast as possible. Having never practiced that, not getting a single hit at 10 feet with a PM40 was an eye opener for a number of reasons.
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Old November 29, 2019, 10:34 AM   #148
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I understand that there has to be a mindset of situational awareness. Particularly important when it comes to being a concealed carrying citizen. However this all applies to whether one has a revolver or a semiautomatic.

Revolver carriers tend to be older, in my experience, amongst friends (45 and up).

Whatever someone chooses, it’s up to them to be prepared, trained and deal with whatever limitations that they have chosen.

I don’t think anyone should choose a system based upon what someone has posted on the internet. They should choose based upon where they live, what physical abilities or limitations they have, what they can afford financially to buy and train with, and what knowledge that they have.

Those who lack knowledge, training, proficiency, or money need to determine what they can work upon.

For me, I don’t care what people think about how I do it because in the end, I’m the one who will live or die by those consequences. However I’m very confident enough to understand what I can and cannot do.


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Old November 29, 2019, 10:38 AM   #149
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In his book "When violence is the answer" by Tim Larkin he shows an illustration of one person choking out another. He says he will ask his students what they would do in the situation. He gets a lot of answers as to how to combat a two handed choke. He goes on to write that after hearing the answers from around the room, some of which get rather inventive, he explains he would continue choking out the other individual which will normally result in their hands going up to your arms, and then step into it and use his legs and knees against an open midsection until he carried the choke onto the ground where it is more practical to crush important pieces in the throat.

Oh? You assumed you were the person being choked? Ehh... that is a problem. Conversely he notes that when he shows the same picture to violent criminal offenders or others where violence is part of the job most of the time the individuals identify with the person doing the choking and seldom see themselves as the victim.

Why is this important? Before I answer that let me be clear. Staying calm enough to be able to think things through, see as much of the situation as possible, and work your way through the issues are valid skills. BUT - your aggressor will already be in action. He or she will have already deliberated and made the decision that violence is the answer and, considering your use of deadly force, is using enough violence or the threat of enough violence to cause severe bodily harm. This is probably not your aggressors first use of violence.

Successful defense against anti-social violence (violence that requires a violent answer and cannot be answered through social means) almost always requires quick, decisive, and violent reaction that is able to overcome the action vs reaction problem present in any defensive situation. There is a very small amount of time for consideration of what action is appropriate.
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Old November 29, 2019, 10:47 AM   #150
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I think a miniature semiauto is a disaster about to happen.
I don't like them either.

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I recall doing a bug gun stage once, instructed to fire 5 rounds as fast as possible. Having never practiced that, not getting a single hit at 10 feet with a PM40 was an eye opener for a number of reasons.
That is an extremely important drill to master.

With a BUG? That's tough. It is what led me to retire the snubbie for primary carry and carry a larger firearm with a better trigger.
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