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Old December 4, 2019, 12:55 PM   #51
tipoc
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A small but essential point: In a semi a magazine is not an accessory. It is integral to the proper functioning of the gun. The guns are not single shot pistols that, with an accessory or modification, become self loading guns. No the magazine is essential. The relationship of the magazine to the pistol is not the same as the relationship of a speed loader to the DA revolver.

A better "test" would be to take a 1911 and put all the spare ammo in an old smelly unwashed sock. Carry that sock in the left hand coat pocket.

Now take a speed loader with 6 fresh rounds of 38 Spl. and carry that in the right hand pocket of the same coat.

Wear that coat, rain or shine, for a month.

At the end of the month which side of the coat smells like old sock? This test will tell you as much about the reliability of the 1911 vs. a da revolver as the previous "test".

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Old December 4, 2019, 02:14 PM   #52
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Quote:
A small but essential point: In a semi a magazine is not an accessory.
I agree. A (or The) magazine is not an accessory. A SPARE magazine, however, is an accessory.

Today, it is usual to have a spare included, just as it was once usual for a (qualtity) pistol to come with a cleaning kit (rod, brush, swab) and I always thought S&Ws with not just the cleaning kit but also a cool screwdriver that properly fit the gun screws was a class act.

But there's still a lot of new guns out there that don't come with a spare mag included. Most duty class guns do, because its what people expect these days, but the makers aren't obligated to include a spare, because it's an accessory.

Spare = extra
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Old December 4, 2019, 05:16 PM   #53
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Not sure what youre buying, but any of the new, and used autos Ive bought over the past decade or so, have all come with at least two mags, and many of them, three.

I dont consider the spare mag as an accessory either. Since the mags tend to be the weakest link in the autos, the back up is a necessity, at least if youre smart about it.
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Old December 4, 2019, 07:41 PM   #54
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A spare mag is not an accessory either. It's a reload. What is below is also true.

Quote:
I dont consider the spare mag as an accessory either. Since the mags tend to be the weakest link in the autos, the back up is a necessity, at least if youre smart about it.
Without an extra magazine you may be stuck with a single shot pistol should the initial mag be lost or damaged.

We may say "extra" or "spare" but again they are an essential part of the gun. If a gun is sold with a single mag (a cheap move by the maker) then the first thing a shooter does is go get at least 2 more mags.

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Old December 4, 2019, 08:52 PM   #55
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Quote:
Not sure what youre buying,...
Pretty sure we're not buying the same things...

Quote:
We may say "extra" or "spare" but again they are an essential part of the gun. If a gun is sold with a single mag (a cheap move by the maker) then the first thing a shooter does is go get at least 2 more mags.
I agree that getting extra mags are something we do if possible. I disagree that that a spare *(extra) magazine is an essential part of the gun.

Don't confuse a highly desirable enhancement with an essential part. ONE magazine is essential, the rest are just an improvement.

Now, don't think I'm saying I only want one magazine, all I'm saying is that if the pistol has the one it is supposed to have, it is complete and usable. Its just not as combat effective without extra loaded magazines.

I've bought a lot of pistols over the last 40 years. A few new, most used. Some of the new ones only had one magazine, many of the used ones only had one magazine. Quite a few pistols in the old days only came with one mag, especially if they weren't "duty class" type guns. When I bought (new) a Ruger Mk I it came with one mag. Browning BDA .45 (new) one mag. Heck, when I bought my first Desert Eagle, it only came with one magazine (though there was a spot in the box for another).

Lots of the used pistols I've bought only had one mag with them, One of them, a Mauser HSc I've gotten two spares and neither worked!

My main focus isn't on "combat" class pistols, though I have had dozens of 1911A1s a few Browning HiPowers, Sig P220s and some others, along with p.08 Lugers P.38 and such. One mag in the gun and its good. Additional mags with the gun are gravy.

So, yes its really nice when you get a spare or two with the gun. But they aren't essential, just valuable and desirable.

IF you only had one gun and no spare mags would you NOT carry it or keep it for home defense or hunt with it??
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Old December 5, 2019, 08:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Pretty sure we're not buying the same things...
You might be surprised.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

IF you only had one gun and no spare mags would you NOT carry it or keep it for home defense or hunt with it??
I wouldnt carry it any more than Id carry a revolver without a couple of speed loaders.
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Old December 5, 2019, 03:36 PM   #57
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Folks sometimes speak of splitting hairs to make a point (or give one the satisfaction of being the "winner") and this is a good example of that. One mag is essential but a second mag is just gravy, "valuable and desirable" but not really needed.

All of which is just a round about way of proving that it's faster to reload a revolver from a box of ammo off a table top than it is to reload a magazine for a 1911, and then load it in the gun, from a box of ammo also sitting on a table top. An important question of course which many users of weed debate at 3 am.

"Yeah man, but what if the first mag is the third mag and what happens if the second mag is the third mag. What then man? Then is the third mag essential? What if the esse mag is left at home then what's the gravy man?"

"Brah, you've blown my mind man! Hey, what's that smell?"

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Old December 5, 2019, 10:58 PM   #58
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Quote:
I've been shooting pistols since the late 60s, and my experience is different from yours, in that I found semi autos fail (of some kind) several times the rate that revolvers fail. No where near "about the same" failure rate.

The almost constant difference (there are exceptions) is that, USUALLY when a semi auto fails it can be cleared and returned to operability fairly rapidly, and often in the field and when a revolver fails its pretty much done until someone can do shop work on it. Usually.
Yep, my experience too. Rod
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Old December 6, 2019, 09:18 AM   #59
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I thought about this thread in the last few days.....

I have a Kimber 1911 stainless - which works and shoots as any Kimber should be expected to (well and very accurate).
Recently, a "need" developed....
A tenant in one of our rentals contacted us from the hospital.
She told us that - she had to move out ASAP - her boyfriend had beat her half to death and he was stalking her.

Good chance he was going to show up and cause a lot of trouble for all concerned when we met her for the walk through & to collect the keys.

I/we never really met the guy, but, from her description he's big - real big - and can be really mean....& possibly armed...

The .45acp Shield, 9mm SIG 938 & Ruger LCP - all of a sudden felt - inadequate...
Having no holster for the Kimber - I decided to run out and pick one up.

While at the gun store, I was admiring a nice old S&W M28 they had. The sales guy mentioned it would make a great gun to go along with me on the walk through.

I told him, "Maybe, but, I'd feel a lot better with one of those S&W M69 snub noses"...

He pointed to a far counter and told me go over there for that!!!

Soooooo---early Christmas present for me & my personal answer to this thread & the whole issue of reliability...

I consider a 240 grain JHP @ roughly 1100 fps - out of a platform I have complete confidence in (D/a S&W revolver) to be the most reliable thing - - I can take into harm's way....

Sometimes - there's just more to the question of something than what meets the eye.
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Old December 7, 2019, 05:43 AM   #60
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Only real failure i've had on a revolver that took it totally out of action was when the hand broke on my Python soon after I bought it, used. Other than that, leaded up barrels was the worst issue.

The 3 1911's I've had would have been doing well to be anywhere near as good as the second worst of my revolvers.
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Old Yesterday, 01:33 PM   #61
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Good choice Hal. I had the 4.125" 69 and sold it to get the shorter one. Still have not got the gun but........
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Old Today, 04:28 AM   #62
Hal
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Thanks buddy!

I've been Jonesing for a snubby M69 ever since S&W came out with the L frame .44 magnum.

My original idea was to have one custom made from a 4 1/4"- -but - -due to the two piece barrel, tat was just a dream.

It took years for a snub to show up at a local gun store. My original idea there was to wait for a used one to turn up - but - it seemed like that anyone that bought one new going in what to expect and bought one because that's what they wanted & they hung onto it.

Anyhow - very happy with mine! The Galeco Shoulder holster - not so much.
$172 for something that cuts a line in my neck after wearing it for 5 min.
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Old Today, 05:22 AM   #63
silvermane_1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal View Post
I thought about this thread in the last few days.....

I have a Kimber 1911 stainless - which works and shoots as any Kimber should be expected to (well and very accurate).
Recently, a "need" developed....
A tenant in one of our rentals contacted us from the hospital.
She told us that - she had to move out ASAP - her boyfriend had beat her half to death and he was stalking her.

Good chance he was going to show up and cause a lot of trouble for all concerned when we met her for the walk through & to collect the keys.

I/we never really met the guy, but, from her description he's big - real big - and can be really mean....& possibly armed...

The .45acp Shield, 9mm SIG 938 & Ruger LCP - all of a sudden felt - inadequate...
Having no holster for the Kimber - I decided to run out and pick one up.

While at the gun store, I was admiring a nice old S&W M28 they had. The sales guy mentioned it would make a great gun to go along with me on the walk through.

I told him, "Maybe, but, I'd feel a lot better with one of those S&W M69 snub noses"...

He pointed to a far counter and told me go over there for that!!!

Soooooo---early Christmas present for me & my personal answer to this thread & the whole issue of reliability...

I consider a 240 grain JHP @ roughly 1100 fps - out of a platform I have complete confidence in (D/a S&W revolver) to be the most reliable thing - - I can take into harm's way....

Sometimes - there's just more to the question of something than what meets the eye.
A M69 subby?, you would probably better served with the Kimber with +P ammo or even 45 Super, 44 mag loses a lot out of a snubby, unless you "roll your own" with fast burning powder and even then you would still be better served with the Kimber 1911 in 45 ACP +P and/or 45 Super there Hal.
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