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Old December 5, 2019, 09:49 PM   #26
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I’d happily hunt with a 257 AI and 115 gr Ballistic Tips. That’s almost the same In ballistics as my 260 and 120 gr Ballistic Tips. I push it at approx 2800 and it is very effective. It’s been years since I used my 270 and the 130 gr BTs at 3000 FPS. It took me many years to realize that I didn’t need as much gun as I had been using. That said, the 270 was soooo very effective.

I was in a gun shop in Hico, Texas a few days ago, and in a rack I saw an old battered Ruger 77 Ultralight. Before I picked it up I had already decided to buy it IF it was in 257 Roberts. But, it was in 223. It almost stuck to my hand anyway.

It was a great gun shop. Best I’ve seen in decades.
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Old December 6, 2019, 09:49 AM   #27
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I can put a 7-08 through a shoulder into the heart and make a quick kill. I have done that. I prefer the double lung so there is no meat damage. From my observations, it takes a lot of shock for a quick kill with the double lung shot. The 7-08 double lung leaves an arrow type wound. Sealed over entry hole. Quarter sized exit hole. Shock damage limited to about size of half dollar. 7 Rum on double lung leaves quarter size entrance hole, silver follar sized exit hole, and both lungs pure jello.
I can say with confidence, using any of the bullets I've used, (Core Lokts, Ballistic Tips, Accubonds, SSTs, Interlocks, Game Kings, Hot Cor, Pro Hunters, etc...) the 7-08 can produce that jello effect out to at least 250 yds. Does it every single time? Maybe not. But it certainly does more times than it doesn't.
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Old December 6, 2019, 12:46 PM   #28
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+1 for Nosler Ballistic Tips.

I had a load for my great grandfather's 7.62x51mmR that was about 1400fps (the gun was over 100 years old) and the 150 g nostler ballistic tip opened up like an orchid and put a big doe down in 3 steps. The bullet was recovered in the hide on the opposite side of the carcass- great big Wisconsin doe... I still remember how heavy she was trying to load her up. It was after dark and I was cold and tired and my buddies were not hunting that day. It was a memorable day and that old rifle will never see the field again, honorably retired.
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Old December 6, 2019, 04:04 PM   #29
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Energy numbers alone are useless
A year or so ago, I was ridiculed on this forum for saying that foot-pounds are essentially meaningless. They are not the correct unit of measure for what you are trying to determine, i.e. "what kills animals". There is no quantifiable way to determine how much energy gets delivered inside the animal's body outside of a laboratory, or what that energy does at the moment of impact.

Over the past 50 years that I have been involved in hunting and shooting, I have read of several other methods to try to determine which cartridge or bullet has an advantage and will kill quickly and humanely. Momentum calculations and formuals like Taylor's KO Index, among others, favors slower, heavier bullets. Kinetic energy formulas favor speed over weight of the projectile (the whole "1/2 mass X velocity squared" thing). The typical discussion between two or more hunters usually sounds like "heavier bullets kill better" vs "higher velocity kills better". In my experience, there is a sweet spot for both velocity and bullet weight, somewhere around 130-180 grains of weight going 2,300-3,000 ft/s. There are dozens of cartridges that fall within those ranges that are recognized as "good killing rounds", from 30-30 to 375 H&H. Any faster and there is too much meat damage, any slower and there is no hydrostatic shock to create a good wound channel.
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Old December 6, 2019, 06:54 PM   #30
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Not disagreeing, but my old 35 Remington and 200 gr CoreLokt bullets, at 2100 FPS, left a heck of a wound channel. That said, my present preference for a hunting bullet would be my 260 and 120 gr BTs at about 2800 FPS, or something similar.

Talking about foot pounds of energy that a caliber and load generate isn’t worth much unless the energy is transferred to the critter. The bullet I use in the 260 won’t exit a big hog, so energy transfer is total, but it isn’t in a deer or coyote.
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Old December 7, 2019, 10:25 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Scorch View Post
A year or so ago, I was ridiculed on this forum for saying that foot-pounds are essentially meaningless. They are not the correct unit of measure for what you are trying to determine, i.e. "what kills animals". There is no quantifiable way to determine how much energy gets delivered inside the animal's body outside of a laboratory, or what that energy does at the moment of impact.

Over the past 50 years that I have been involved in hunting and shooting, I have read of several other methods to try to determine which cartridge or bullet has an advantage and will kill quickly and humanely. Momentum calculations and formuals like Taylor's KO Index, among others, favors slower, heavier bullets. Kinetic energy formulas favor speed over weight of the projectile (the whole "1/2 mass X velocity squared" thing). The typical discussion between two or more hunters usually sounds like "heavier bullets kill better" vs "higher velocity kills better". In my experience, there is a sweet spot for both velocity and bullet weight, somewhere around 130-180 grains of weight going 2,300-3,000 ft/s. There are dozens of cartridges that fall within those ranges that are recognized as "good killing rounds", from 30-30 to 375 H&H. Any faster and there is too much meat damage, any slower and there is no hydrostatic shock to create a good wound channel.
Energy numbers alone are indeed worthless, but Energy is an essential factor in stopping power.
Until recently, I followed Elmer Keith logic. (Which was cirrect at his time) Heavy bullet pushed extremely fast is the best way to quickly kill.
Bonded bullets and monolithic expanding bullets have changed the game. I now favor a relatively light bullet pushed at screaming velocity. Of course, the ultra long range still requires long high b.c. bullets.

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Old December 7, 2019, 12:16 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by reynolds357 View Post
Energy numbers alone are indeed worthless, but Energy is an essential factor in stopping power.
Until recently, I followed Elmer Keith logic. (Which was cirrect at his time) Heavy bullet pushed extremely fast is the best way to quickly kill.
Bonded bullets and monolithic expanding bullets have changed the game. I now favor a relatively light bullet pushed at screaming velocity. Of course, the ultra long range still requires long high b.c. bullets.
Given a choice between a 243 w/something like a 90gr TTSX vrs a 30-06 with a 180gr cup and core and the game is Alaskan Brown Bear, which would you choose? How about both cartridges with exactly the same placement on the Brown Bear? I'll take the 30-06 and never look back!
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Old December 7, 2019, 01:56 PM   #33
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Given a choice between a 243 w/something like a 90gr TTSX vrs a 30-06 with a 180gr cup and core and the game is Alaskan Brown Bear, which would you choose? How about both cartridges with exactly the same placement on the Brown Bear? I'll take the 30-06 and never look back!
Neither. Alaskan Brown is going to get shot with a 340 Weatherby. (Big and fast)
Of the two you mentioned, I would take the .30-06.
Had the choice been 7 mag with a 140tsx, instead of .243, I would choose 7 mag. .243 is too small at any velocity to shoot something that will try to eat you. In the .243 Win, it is also way short on energy.
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Old December 7, 2019, 03:43 PM   #34
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Until recently, I followed Elmer Keith logic. (Which was cirrect at his time) Heavy bullet pushed extremely fast is the best way to quickly kill.
Won't disagree with that, but most shooters can't shoot rifles that meet those criteria accurately. Otherwise, everybody would hunt with a 460 Weatherby. Also, velocity increases the kinetic energy numbers much faster than results in killing power change. So realistically, a middle weight bullet with middle velocity kills well enough for most people and allows them to shoot relatively well without hours and hours at the range (think 30-06 over 340 Weatherby). And then try to translate the 4,000+ ft-lbs of energy from the 340 Weatherby into killing better than the 30-06's 3,000 ft-lbs. And Partitions vs TTSXs. And 2 year-old doe vs 4 year old buck. There are so many variables in the whole argument of speed vs weight that it is hard for most people to make any sense of it all.

My take on this whole argument is that bullet weight gives penetration, velocity gives you a flatter trajectory. Anything else depends on what you are shooting at and where you hit it.
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Old December 7, 2019, 04:08 PM   #35
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Won't disagree with that, but most shooters can't shoot rifles that meet those criteria accurately. Otherwise, everybody would hunt with a 460 Weatherby. Also, velocity increases the kinetic energy numbers much faster than results in killing power change. So realistically, a middle weight bullet with middle velocity kills well enough for most people and allows them to shoot relatively well without hours and hours at the range (think 30-06 over 340 Weatherby). And then try to translate the 4,000+ ft-lbs of energy from the 340 Weatherby into killing better than the 30-06's 3,000 ft-lbs. And Partitions vs TTSXs. And 2 year-old doe vs 4 year old buck. There are so many variables in the whole argument of speed vs weight that it is hard for most people to make any sense of it all.

My take on this whole argument is that bullet weight gives penetration, velocity gives you a flatter trajectory. Anything else depends on what you are shooting at and where you hit it.
I agree mostly. What I am now seeing with the TSX and the TTSX being pushed up in the 3600 FPS range is massive hydrostatic shock damage. We are talking channels 6+" wide of jello type destruction. The extreme velocity creates its own unique type wound. The bone fragments make their own wound channels. When energy release is blowing entrance holes that are almost as big as the exit hole, you are dealing with a much different killing effect.
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Old December 7, 2019, 08:48 PM   #36
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Gave me a headache

You're overthinking this. I shot a doe at 127 yards with a 165 Grand Slam at 2600fps from my 308. The bullet destroyed lungs, heart, and liver with complete penetration. Been using 150 Hornady for years, but wanted the 165 to also use on hogs because of the penetration. The 150s, at 2600 wouldn't plow through on chest shots unless under 50 yards. Bullet construction will take care of the MO.
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Old Yesterday, 03:24 AM   #37
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Energy numbers provide a standard for comparison of cartridges with each other. For "what kills best" and "what stops best" energy numbers alone don't mean much. There are many other factors at work, and no generalization (except my signature line ) seems to cover all possible situations adequately.

for an illustration of how energy numbers alone don't work in every real world situation, look at some extreme differences that have the same energy numbers.

A 405gr .45-70 bullet in the 1300fps range produces approx. 1500 ft/lbs of energy.

A 55gr .22-250 bullet in the 3500fps range produces approx. 1500 ft/lbs of energy.

If energy were the only thing that mattered then with the same amount of energy these two rounds should perform identically on game, right?

They don't. Which leads me to conclude there is more at work than just energy numbers alone.
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Old Yesterday, 10:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Energy numbers provide a standard for comparison of cartridges with each other. For "what kills best" and "what stops best" energy numbers alone don't mean much. There are many other factors at work, and no generalization (except my signature line ) seems to cover all possible situations adequately.

for an illustration of how energy numbers alone don't work in every real world situation, look at some extreme differences that have the same energy numbers.

A 405gr .45-70 bullet in the 1300fps range produces approx. 1500 ft/lbs of energy.

A 55gr .22-250 bullet in the 3500fps range produces approx. 1500 ft/lbs of energy.

If energy were the only thing that mattered then with the same amount of energy these two rounds should perform identically on game, right?

They don't. Which leads me to conclude there is more at work than just energy numbers alone.
I dont think anyone in this thread has argued an "energy alone" theory.
The point I am arguing is that with the advent of expanding monolithic and extremely tough bonded bullets, energy is able to play a role that in the past was not possible due to guaranteed bullet failure.
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Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM   #39
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The tougher the bullet, the more chance the bullet will waste energy on the other side of the deer, be it a tree or hillside.

I often shoot coyotes with the Nosler 40 gr Ballistic Tip, and they often don’t exit. That puts most or all of the energy into the coyote. Knocks them flat. Very impressive.
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Old Yesterday, 10:49 AM   #40
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I can put a 7-08 through a shoulder into the heart and make a quick kill. I have done that.
Down angle on that shot? just curious ........ though I've shot 'em in the heart and they've run more than 100 yards sometimes ..... and sometimes they've keeled over backwards ..... or walked in a circle and laid down ..... or dropped like a puppet somebody clipped the strings on ..... they are wild animals and you never can tell how convinced they are that they are not dead .....

Quote:
I prefer the double lung so there is no meat damage.
You always bruise some meat, even when it's just the ribs ...... how much depends on the bullet construction and it's velocity at impact ...... most in our deer camp hunt with the 270WIN, with an -06, a 308, and an occasional 7-08, 30/30, or 243 ..... at ranges under 100 yards, with any of those guns, regardless of bullet used..... the rib meat is a mess of blood clots and bruising ..... as for shooting game animals at 700 yards ..... that's just wrong- making such a hit on the lungs is as much chance as skill, under field conditions. Time of flight is long enough that there's no guarantee, or even likelyhood (unless it's sleeping!) the animal will hold still between launch and impact, no matter how good you and your equipment are ..... but I digress ....

Quote:
From my observations, it takes a lot of shock for a quick kill with the double lung shot. The 7-08 double lung leaves an arrow type wound. Sealed over entry hole. Quarter sized exit hole. Shock damage limited to about size of half dollar. 7 Rum on double lung leaves quarter size entrance hole, silver follar sized exit hole, and both lungs pure jello.
Broadheads seem to kill pretty quickly, with almost no shock involved, when both lungs are hit ..... and I'm wondering if the 7-08 wound you describe was made by a FMJ bullet ...... the quickest 7-08 chest shot kills I've seen did not exit at all .... ballistic tip or Hornady Interlock ..... didn't matter ..... both under 100 yards and yes, there was bruised meat .....
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Old Yesterday, 11:28 AM   #41
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Momentum is the mass x velocity, where velocity is the speed and direction. (Mass times the acceleration due to gravity is the weight.)
Two disparate objects with the same momentum will have very different energy levels on-target, such as a 750 grain bullet vs. an 80,000 lb 18 wheeler.

In ballistic events, momentum is a valid measurement for some things, but not as important as *delivered* kinetic energy, which is 1/2 x mass times the velocity squared.

As an example of equal delivered kinetic energy:
A 750 grain .50 cal round has about 8000 ft lbs of energy at 1000 yards. So does an 80,000 lb 18 wheeler going 1.7 mph. Which is more likely to stop a deer / elk / sasquatch?

As for the momentum of the 2 objects above (and as a physics teacher ), your assignment is to do the math on the difference in momentum and kinetic energy and compare the results. (Note that the "V squared" term is what makes the difference in in the kinetic energy and momentum values.) As a very very rough guide, delivered kinetic energy (listed as kinetic energy at a particular range) is sometimes used "stopping power" value.
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Old Yesterday, 04:12 PM   #42
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In one of the volumes of P.O Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters" is an article by a respected big game outfitter.
I have a good friend who worked as a big game guide in the Rawah Wilderness area of Northern Colorado.

They both said the same thing.Odds are.if the hunter shows up with a 30-06,a 270,etc,the shooting part will work out fine.

Its the guy with the 340 Weatherby that makes them nervous.

That's got to do with whether the hunter's eyes are still open when the trigger breaks.

Wyosmith said it beautifully.Its the hole that kills.

This whole thing of isolating the cartridge or the rifle or energy isn't a broad enough look.

The whole package includes the shooter. It starts with the shooter.

The guy shooting the 340 Weatherby might believe he is the "man of steel" and recoil does not bother him. He NEVER flinches,and can always place his shot.
Maybe so. If so,he is exceptional.

But I'm of the opinion the vast majority of big game hunters have a limit to how much rifle they can shoot well. For most,thats about up to,and including the 30-06.

Many find the 7-08,260,etc works even better for them.

If you can rest over a log and comfortably hit a clay pigeon at whatever range,200,maybe 300 yds,tou can place your shot. Right there!

If you understand the anatomy of your animal,you can shoot for a particular organ.

If you can accomplish that,it just does not matter much if the heart or the lungs are destroyed by a 45-70 from a rolling block or a 250 Savage from a Savage 99 or a 150 gr bullet from Grandpa's thirty thirty.

Old timers ate a lot of venison killed by 25-20's and 32-20's.

A lead round ball at about 1900 fps still works.

I do believe in using enough gun. I don't condone moose hunting with a 223.

But a mere mortal who can shoot his or her 308 or 7-08 can cleanly,humanely take a 200 yd elk,no problem. Dead is dead.

There is a lot to be said for the shot placement confidence of shooting a milder cartridge.

You can certainly hunt deer with a 375 H+H,or a 340 Weatherby. Whatever works for you. I'm not worried about it.

You can use your 257 Weatherby on pronghorns,no problem. But a 257 Roberts will cleanly kill pronghorn at 300+ yds,no problem.
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Old Yesterday, 05:21 PM   #43
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In one of the volumes of P.O Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters" is an article by a respected big game outfitter.
I have a good friend who worked as a big game guide in the Rawah Wilderness area of Northern Colorado.

They both said the same thing.Odds are.if the hunter shows up with a 30-06,a 270,etc,the shooting part will work out fine.

Its the guy with the 340 Weatherby that makes them nervous.

That's got to do with whether the hunter's eyes are still open when the trigger breaks.

Wyosmith said it beautifully.Its the hole that kills.

This whole thing of isolating the cartridge or the rifle or energy isn't a broad enough look.

The whole package includes the shooter. It starts with the shooter.

The guy shooting the 340 Weatherby might believe he is the "man of steel" and recoil does not bother him. He NEVER flinches,and can always place his shot.
Maybe so. If so,he is exceptional.

But I'm of the opinion the vast majority of big game hunters have a limit to how much rifle they can shoot well. For most,thats about up to,and including the 30-06.

Many find the 7-08,260,etc works even better for them.

If you can rest over a log and comfortably hit a clay pigeon at whatever range,200,maybe 300 yds,tou can place your shot. Right there!

If you understand the anatomy of your animal,you can shoot for a particular organ.

If you can accomplish that,it just does not matter much if the heart or the lungs are destroyed by a 45-70 from a rolling block or a 250 Savage from a Savage 99 or a 150 gr bullet from Grandpa's thirty thirty.

Old timers ate a lot of venison killed by 25-20's and 32-20's.

A lead round ball at about 1900 fps still works.

I do believe in using enough gun. I don't condone moose hunting with a 223.

But a mere mortal who can shoot his or her 308 or 7-08 can cleanly,humanely take a 200 yd elk,no problem. Dead is dead.

There is a lot to be said for the shot placement confidence of shooting a milder cartridge.

You can certainly hunt deer with a 375 H+H,or a 340 Weatherby. Whatever works for you. I'm not worried about it.

You can use your 257 Weatherby on pronghorns,no problem. But a 257 Roberts will cleanly kill pronghorn at 300+ yds,no problem.
Just because some people cant shoot a 340 Wby doesnt mean everyone cant.
Ackley, the man who believed every cartride should go at least 200 fps faster, is mentioned in your reference against velocity??????? Irony at its best.
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Old Yesterday, 06:30 PM   #44
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In the 80’s I did some business related hosting for deer hunting in South Texas. Sometimes I knew who’d be on my Jeep and sometimes I got to decide who’d be on the Jeep. But sometimes I’d have a rider that I didn’t know. Without being too obvious, I’d have a look at them and their gear and rifle. You could usually spot the old hands and the newbies with the shiny new rifles. And it mattered, since I’d be doing the tracking. If I saw a newbie with a magnum (also new), I worried.

And I did know a guy that bought a 340 Weatherby to hunt something. I forget what. Some time later, he was on my Jeep. I asked how he liked the 340, which he didn’t have with him. He said he sold it. Only shot it 4 times - 3 at the range and once at the animal. Said that was enough, and he was a good hunter.

As for previous comments, HiBC said it all very well.
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Old Yesterday, 10:21 PM   #45
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Just because some people cant shoot a 340 Wby doesnt mean everyone cant.
Ackley, the man who believed every cartride should go at least 200 fps faster, is mentioned in your reference against velocity??????? Irony at its best.
Reynolds357....I've never seen you shoot a 340 Weatherby, therefore I have no good reason to have an opinion as to whether you can shoot one well,or not.

I will happily give you the benefit of the doubt. If you say so,you are the rare and special shooter who never squints while shooting his 340 Weatherby. My hat is off to you. You are special.

But the vast majority of hunters and shooters have a point where the intensity of shooting a rifle makes them an inconsistent,and sometimes lousy shot.

I advocate for using ENOUGH gun,but more is not necessarily better.I advocate for knowing your ballistics,knowing what range your velocity drops below 2000 fps or whatever speed your bullet performs.
I advocate for selecting a bullet that is designed for what you are trying to do.

I have no doubt that a 308 loaded with a 165 gr Ballistic tip ,shot placed through the ribs just behind the foreleg will cleanly kill an elk.out to 300 yds.

Of course there are exceptions,but for the vast majority of shooters who have reasonable skills and some practice, shot placement out to 300 yds is a reasonable expectation with a 308 class rifle .

Hand that same shooter a 300 win mag or more,he hears footsteps .He cringes and flinches sometimes. Which means he throws a bad shot sometimes. And sometimes that's just a miss,sometimes its a mess.

Of course,I concede,reynolds 357,thats not you. You are special.

But I'm among the rest of us mere mortals who prefer a milder rifle,and I believe a milder rifle can produce a higher percentage of clean kills due to a higher percentage of well placed shots.

Your comment on Mr Ackley? You have a misconception on my attitude toward velocity.. My 257 is an AI. My load these days is a 115 at about 3050.

Not much different than little brother to a 270.,a classic,effective mild shooting hunting rifle.

In many instances,the AI was applied to cartridges with excessive case taper and sloped shoulders. Sure,there was velocity gain,but that's not the only point of the AI.

You and I also see overbore differently. I never felt I needed more case capacity n a 7 mm Rem Mag.None of the published loads,IIRC,passed 90% case fill.

I actually think the 7x61 Sharps and Hart was a better 7mm magnum design.

I prefer 160 gr + in a 7mm,and I prefer to not shove the bullet down into the boiler room. I long seat them.

Which is why,in my opinion,cartridges like the 7mm STW may have their fans,but I prefer a more balanced cartridge.
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