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Old March 31, 2006, 06:44 PM   #51
Steve499
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Thanks, George. My infernal machine (computer) is being tempremental and won't let me look at anything on that link right now, don't ask me why! Which book was the Whitworth reference in?

Yes, I'm fascinated at the concept of a rifle from the muzzle loading era which can shoot a bullet with a workable ballistic coefficient. He got that 1 turn in 20 inches as the best by making a bazillion barrels and varying the rifling all the way from 1 turn in 1 inch on out to 1 turn in 70 inches or something like that! After shooting them all, 1 in 20 was best. Musta been some machinist, huh?

Steve
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Old April 1, 2006, 04:28 AM   #52
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Steve,

If you are having trouble DLing them all, the one you want is "The Story of the Gun", by Tennent.

27 megs. If you cannot DL them, for whatever reason, let me know. I have them, and they will all fit 1 CD. I'll burn and send.

Actually, he didn't do trial and error. From 78 inch twist to 20 inch. He was noted as the best "mechanician" in England. He calculated it. And then, to prove he was right, he went as far as a 1 in 1 twist, AND, the ball flew true.

Cheers,

George
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Old April 1, 2006, 07:24 PM   #53
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Whatever gremlin was keeping me from seeing that file has decamped. I have it downloaded now, hope to read it soon. Thanks for the help, George. When I get my Whitworth and post a few pictures of my 200 yard 1/2 inch groups with it Maybe you'll need one too!

Steve
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Old April 1, 2006, 10:35 PM   #54
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Steve,

I'm already thinking about one. And rifle no longer interests me all that much..

Cheers,

George
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Old April 2, 2006, 06:29 PM   #55
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Re: Multiple Ignition

I have experienced multiple ignition or "chain fire" three times. It was long ago, in the 1970s, with a cheaply made Italian copy of the 1851 Navy in .44 caliber.
Yeah, I know, the Navy was never made in .44 caliber.
In those days, I followed the instructions of Lyman: Use FFFG black powder (as I recall, it was around 30 grains), a .451 ball and put Crisco over the ball when seated.
There was no mention of using greased felt wads from Lyman, nor of pinching caps into an oval so they'd cling to the nipple better.
In the second incident, a ball was fired into the rammer. In the third incident, a ball was again fired into the rammer, this time ruining it. I gave the gun to Bill Falk, whom my father knew from work (Bonneville Power Administration). Bill was quite the black powder enthusiast back in those days.
I picked up my next black powder revolver about 1983: a Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy in the correct .36 caliber.
I used greased felt wads, per Elmer Keith's instructions. Also pinched the caps into an oval, so they clung to the nipple.
Funny thing: When you pinch the caps into an oval, then seat them on the nipple, they return to their typical round shape. There is NO gap twixt the nipple and cap, but the "memory" of the copper being oval gives them enough spring to clutch the nipple tightly.
For many years, I've disbelieved the claim that grease over the ball will prevent chain fires. Frankly, I just don't see how a tight ball can let flame past. It is agreed that "tight" is a relative term but let's assume that the ball is so tight that it is not loosened by recoil.
My Colt 1851 Navy reissue has rather large chambers. A .375 inch ball is nearly a slip fit in them. On occasion, years ago when I first started shooting it, I noticed balls moving forward under recoil.
So, I bought a .380 inch mould and started casting the larger ball.
Interestingly, the instructions Colt included with it specified using a .378 inch ball. A ball of .375 was not mentioned. Ever try finding .378 balls at your local gun store? I found a Lyman .380 mould and have used that with complete satisfaction.
I think it's rather telling that since those multiple iginitions with that one revolver, nearly 35 years ago, I have not had a recurrence --- in any cap and ball revolver.

Re: ball size
I use balls of .454 or .457 inch in my .44s and .380 in my .36 calibers. This makes a good, tight seal. The books almost always recommend .375 or .451 inch but I feel this is poor advice. A slightly larger ball will grip the chamber walls tighter, discouraging shift from recoil, and also provide a wider bearing band for the rifling to grip.

How I load
Loads are assembled with FFFG or FFG black powder (once in a while, with Pyrodex of Hodgdon 777), a greased wad made of 100 percent wool felt, and the wad lubricated with an old bullet lubricant recipe of 1 part canning paraffin, 1 part mutton tallow and 1/2 part beeswax (all parts by weight, not volume).
I seat the greased wad on the ball first, quite firm, then seat the ball firmly on the wad.
If a No. 11 cap is loose, I try a No. 10 cap. If the No. 10 cap bottoms out on the nipple, I pinch it into an oval shape. If it doesn't bottom out, I return to the No. 11 and pinch it into an oval.

Re: Lubricant
Years ago I tried firing without a lubricant. I noticed that the black powder fouling tended to cake and burn itself to the steel. It left a hard, caked-on fouling. With lubricant the black powder fouling is more easily wiped off.

Re: Lubricant use long ago
The earliest source I can find for the use of greased felt wads is Elmer Keith. However, he said he was taught how to properly load his original 1851 Navy Colt by Civil War veterans in the Helena, Montana area. This was about 1912. He started carrying that fine, old Navy when he was 13, as I recall.
In his book "Sixguns" Keith also notes that Colt offered combustible cartridges for all their revolvers. He speaks of the conical bullet attached to a tube of nitrated paper, containing the powder charge and --- this is the interesting part --- the bullet dipped in melted beeswax or tallow at the factory before being placed in those little boxes containing six cartridges.
I've never been able to view an original cartridge up close. However, all of those I've seen have bullets that are badly oxidized? Could this be because of the moistness of the lubricant, over time?
I have a box of Remington .32 Short Colt cartridges, which used an outside lubricated bullet, and every bullet is badly corroded.
Conversely, I have a couple of paper cartridges dating at least to the 1860s whose bullets are still free of oxidation. There is no stain on the paper to indicate the bullet was ever lubricated.
I tend to believe Keith when he says that the factory paper cartridges had a little lubricant on the bullet. I recall him writing somewhere that he fired some original cartridges once and they worked just fine. Keith was a keen observer, so I think he would have noted the absence of lubricant, especially since it was a common occurence in his day.

Using a vintage photograph to indicate the use of lubricant has its perils. By and large, conical bullets were used in paper cartridges during the Civil War. If there were any paper cartridges with a round ball, I'd strongly suspect they were homemade.
Also, I'm certain that the pistoleros of yore didn't slather in a lot of lubricant, as we do today. The factories probably used a very thin coat of lubricant on their bullets, which would not appear in a photo.
Sadly, it appears that no soldier or pistolero took the time years ago to write down the specifics of loading his revolver. At most, we may read, "I loaded my revolver and returned to the battle" or whatever.

I wish I could find the source but within the past few years I read of a Union officer who dripped melted beeswax over the revolver balls and caps, before going into battle. This was the memoir of a fellow soldier.
This turned out to be a wise precaution, as he and his troops were overwhelmed during a battle and had to swim a river to a small island, where they hid from Rebel troops until nightfall, when they could swim back across the river to their own lines.
Later, behind Union lines, the captain was curious how well the waterproofing worked. He reported to the chronicler that all chambers fired just fine, apparently with full strength.
Now, that beeswax over the balls was intended for waterproofing but it surely helped lubricate the projectile as well.

We know that from the early days of gunpowder, some kind of lubricant was used on balls and patches. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that when the revolver came along, people put some kind of lubricant over the seated ball too, if only for waterproofing.
Commonly available lubricants would have been spermwhale oil, various tallows, wagon axle grease, olive oil (usually known as "sweet oil"), bear fat, deer fat, candle wax and even plain ol' spit.

Colt may not have mentioned the use of any lubricant because Col. Colt was a terrific salesman. Had he mentioned lubricant, it would have meant one more step --- and potential buyers would have believed that his revolvers would not function without the aforementioned lubricant.
Contemporary testimonies about Colt revolvers speak of seating all balls and placing caps on the nipples --- without any lubricant whatsoever --- then soaking the revolver in a bucket of water for a few hours. After which, the revolver was pulled from the bucket and fired without failure.
This may be true, or it may be advertising license (read "damnable lie").

In my gut, I believe that if the pistolero had time, he used some kind of lubricant over the projectile. Or, in the case of factory loads, the projectile had a thin coat of beeswax or tallow over it.
Can I prove it? Nope.
Sadly, this mystery will almost certainly never be solved.
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Old April 3, 2006, 12:19 AM   #56
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Cat,

Where in Keith's writings did you see reference to buying felt hats and lubing?

In "Sixguns" and in "Hell, I Was There", the only mention I saw was a target shot where the annotation was "greased wad", or "lubed wad". I will admit I may have missed it, but I have read them several times each.

It has been said that Colt did load pistols, slather loose powder over the chamber mouths, and fire without chain fires. likewise, he loaded, spilled powder around the nipples and caps, and fired all rounds without any chain fires, either.

Advertising license?

I have never read anywhere, until the craze hit the US that you should use any lube to seal chambers from chain fire. A ball that has a good ring of lead shaved when you ram it is NOT going to leave a channel for fire to touch off an adjacent chamber, Wayner's objection aside that he has shaved them a bunch and can still see light alongside.

I should qualify that by saying that the 500 balls I bought, cast, are so pi+s poor a piece that they are from .451 across the OD, to .471, if you put your caliper on the high and low of the parting. Haven't rammed any of those yet. if I get 2 partial rings, will either slather good or remelt them.

Cheers,

George
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Old April 4, 2006, 11:51 PM   #57
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"Sixguns by Keith," published by Bonanza Books of New York.

Page 210, bottom of right column:
"Next, take an old felt hat, a thick heavy one .. an eighth inch thick ... and soak it in a mixture of melted tallow and beeswax. When cold and hard, take a slightly oversize wad cutter and cut wads."

Page. 211. Top of left column:
"Place a single, greased wad on top the powder, start the round ball down in the cylinder mouth ... ram it home so the powder is tightly compressed ...."

Yep, Sam Colt did dribble powder around the ball, and over the cap, then fire his revolvers. And he did it with complete success, to the amazement of those who witnessed. However, I don't recommend it as a regular practice.
John Browning, when demonstrating his 1911 .45 ACP before the Army, put 6,000 rounds through it in one sitting. The pistol would get so hot, it would turn a dull red. At that point, he'd plunge it into a bucket of water, then keep firing.
Again, I don't recommend this.

Colt made some claims for his revolvers that I've long suspected, especially regarding their accuracy. But then, it must be remembered that when he demonstrated his revolvers, he was undoubtedly using the best of the best of the best produced by his factory. Very likely, it was carefully fitted by master craftsmen who ensured it worked its absolute best.
Run of the mill revolvers, off the assembly line, were pretty good but I suspect not nearly as good as Sam Colt used for his demonstrations.
An eye-opening book on Sam Colt is, "The Flamboyant Mr. Colt and His Deadly Six-Shooter" by Bern Keating. My edition is Doubleday & Company, 1978, hardcover. I think it's a first edition.
Anwyay, it's all about Sam Colt: early years, family, experiences, marketing acumen, etc. Fascinating reading. Don't know if it's still in print. This is the only copy I've seen. Found it at a used book store.
Lots of interesting stuff in there ... Sam's brother, John Colt, was convicted of murdering a printer and scheduled to hang in 1842. Shortly before his hanging, he was found in his cell with a butcher knife in his chest. The coroner ruled it a suicide. Go figure.

I'm not sure when the "craze" hit the U.S., to place lubricant over the seated ball. I have every American Rifleman printed from December 1928 to last month's issue --- an unbroken set.
In there, whenever I've seen instructions for cap and ball revolvers, it was suggested to put grease over the ball. Keith is the first reference I can find for the use of felt wads.
Suggesting that grease be placed over the seated ball was suggested at least 70 years ago, judging from the old magazines I peruse.

I agree that a proper ball shouldn't let any flame past it, when seated. I've said that for years and years. I've never proposed using lubricant over the ball to prevent multiple ignitions. I believe that multiple ignitions begin at the rear, between the caps and nipples.
I've heard that some cheap reproductions have chambers that are not quite round. Rather oblong shaped, which allows a gap between the chamber wall and the ball. Never seen this myself but I"ve heard of it.
I don't know how this happens in the manufacturing process. I guess the chambering reamer chatters momentarily and moves sideways, making a slightly oblong hole.

Not long ago, I read that Colt's first revolvers had chambers that were straight-bored. Same diameter at the front, as at the rear. Then, by the 1851 Navy's introduction (or so I read) he made the chambers slightly tapered.
I don't know if this is true but it makes sense. With a tapered chamber, the ball would be held tighter, the deeper it was rammed.
I don't believe this was a major taper, just a very slight degree from front to back.
Can't recall where I read that. Might have been on a message board.
It would be interesting to measure some early chambers, then later ones, to see if this is true.

Ah well, it's late. Have to wield my vorpal blade and slay the Jabberwocky tomorrow, so I need to turn in!
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Old April 5, 2006, 01:39 AM   #58
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Cat,

Thank you. I have read that book backwards and frontwards, totally escaped me that Keith was the one to suggest buying up old felt hats. I have reccommended it, could not find any at my Goodwill or Salvation Army stores, wound up buying a ladie's overcoat, solid wool, 10 bucks, about 5 yards of 1/8 inch thick wool. Hell, one big patch pocket made way over 200 wads, both 44 and 36,

I saturate my wool and cool before I punch them out. Saves trying to separate them from the glob when you dump little discs into the mix.

The Whitworth rifle, and the Whitworth cartridge, do use a greased wad under the ball. That is from 1855 or so. It is written that one General fired some 200 shots over a couple weeks and got no fouling from it. Nor rusting.

I posted the link to the DLs of the mid 1800's books and the early 1900's books, such as W.H.B. Smith's books and Askins and Hatcher, and the like. 600 megs, excellent reading, but a little harder on screen than on paper.

I've gotten to about halfway on Whitworth, then come to the Forums, and lose my place, have to go back a few pages. Should read in the AM when fewer are on line. OR, just ignore the Forii for a few hours.

Cheers,

George
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Old April 6, 2006, 04:11 PM   #59
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Reading these threads is educational.

For my sons' 1858 Remingtons, one in .36 and one in .44, I've been buying them #11 caps. It appears that unless I replace those with #10 caps, they're risking a nipple-end chainfire? Is it the extra brisance of the #11 cap that's the culprit?

They each have several hundred WonderWads of the appropriate caliber, and well-lubed conicals, so I'm not too worried about the chainfire starting from that end.
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Old April 6, 2006, 04:57 PM   #60
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Quote:
THE FLAMBOYANT MR. COLT AND HIS DEADLY SIX-SHOOTER (ISBN: 038512371X)
found some used copies on-line pretty cheap....

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...x-Shooter&x=64
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Old December 7, 2019, 01:51 AM   #61
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Cap and Ball, no chain fires

Hi I literally signed up for this forum to comment on this particular thread. I been shooting 1858s since 2004 and I have never once had a chain fire. I stopped using lube and wads in 2005, it only took me a year to realize that wad and lube fouls the hell out of the gun. I been using a #11 cap pinched onto a #10 nipple with about 30 or so grains of pyrodex and a .454 round ball for over a decade and I have never ever had a chain fire. The oversized ball ;D is the key, you can't chain fire with a .454 round ball. Many people say using an oversized cap will cause a chain fire but I never found that to be true. I've shot over a thousand rounds with a pinched #11 cap on a #10 nipple and have never had a chain fire. I think sealing the front end of the cylinder with an oversized lead is more important than the size of the cap. If it was, I woulda had chain fires a decade ago. As it stands I've had 15 years of cap and ball shooting without a single chainfire. Also, leaving the wad and lube out of the equation reduces fouling significantly. By an extreme amount. It's worth noting that any added material to the catalytic reaction will add more material fouling. Less is more. All you need is a cap, powder, and an oversized bullet.
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Old December 7, 2019, 02:12 AM   #62
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1858s are awesome!

Also, I've carried these guns loaded in every environment from rainforest downpours to desert heat and the 1858 has always been dependable in every condition. Even despite months of neglect the 1858 Remingtons are above and beyond my expectations. They take a lot of abuse and can hold up and still shoot in the dankest of conditions. Simple is better. Just the cap and powder and a .454 roundball is all you need for these guns. They're designed for a rugged life. Don't treat them too softly, they're powerhouses designed for war.
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Old December 7, 2019, 02:38 PM   #63
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Old December 7, 2019, 08:18 PM   #64
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Lol!!

Mike
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Old December 8, 2019, 10:56 AM   #65
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Holy necro-thread Batman.
But anyway I'll pile on, last few times I shot my revolvers I stopped using grease over or wads. No problems with fouling more than usual. I hate the grease over, makes a slippery mess out of everything. Wads are nice but a guy has to make or buy them, I stated making them which isn't hard but another step. Since I have a bunch of wads made I'll be using them up, but I don't have any issues shooting without them in the future.
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Old December 8, 2019, 05:02 PM   #66
44 Dave
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Many Civil War era paper pistol cartridges had the bullet lubed.
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Old December 28, 2019, 11:05 PM   #67
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lube

My experience is long, but thin. That is, I've been shooting percussion revolvers since about 1968, but don't get to do it very often. I have "Sixguns" by Keith and tried his method of loading wads under the ball in a Uberti made Remington .44. I found that putting Crisco over the balls was ineffective. After one or two shots almost all the lube was gone. The cylinder would start binding after six shots and the bore was full of fouling so the rifling was nearly invisible. With lubed wads under the balls, I could fire at least 18 shots before any sign of the cylinder binding showed up. The front half of the bore looked clean and the fouling in the rear half could be cleared with one dry patch through it. Lately I've been using the methods advocated by John Fuhring (geojohn.com). I've also set up the revolver with minimal barrel/cyl. clearance as advocated by .45Dragoon. Less fouling getting out through the gap seems to help, also. I have never yet had a chainfire. I believe that the combination of a ball that is somewhat larger than the cylinder throats and the lubed wad is the reason. Fuhring claims that most chainfires are caused by powder getting between the cylinder wall and the ball, making a chain of crushed powder past the ball. He claims that the wiping action of the wad, when being seated, clears any powder out of the front of the chamber, preventing ignition from cylinder flash. I can't prove him right, but so far it has worked for me.
Fuhring also claims to have, on several occasions, loaded all chambers, but capped every other nipple in an effort to induce chainfire and it didn't happen. I've never tried it myself. He believes most, if not all chainfires originate at the front of the cylinder. At any rate, his website is quite interesting. L. O. G.
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Old December 29, 2019, 03:29 AM   #68
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I'm not a fan of geojohn but he does get some things right. I have fired guns just capping one nipple at a time and no chain.
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Old December 29, 2019, 03:14 PM   #69
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How much of what they did back then is well documented ? How much comes from factory manuals, military manuals as opposed to "common "practice." And so much of what we do today-hearing protection, e.g.-comes from bad experience and learning the hard way.
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Old January 1, 2020, 10:01 AM   #70
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has anyone brought up that the use of a hard 60 thousands thick fiber wad under the felt wad seals the powder from the round going off? i use them in my 45 long colt cases all the time, also helps keep the bore cleaner also. if i didnt use them i would get leading in the bore. it may work for you percussion shooters also. also i read but can not verify that loose caps on a nipple can cause a chain fire. may or may not be true. it sounds like a problem that can be fixed when every one gives good input. had to laugh when the same reply got run about 4 times. must have sneezed with his finger on the post button. he has good advice though, keep it coming.
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Old January 1, 2020, 01:41 PM   #71
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Quote:
has anyone brought up that the use of a hard 60 thousands thick fiber wad under the felt wad seals the powder from the round going off? i use them in my 45 long colt cases all the time, also helps keep the bore cleaner also. if i didnt use them i would get leading in the bore. it may work for you percussion shooters also. also i read but can not verify that loose caps on a nipple can cause a chain fire. may or may not be true. it sounds like
I don't use wads in cartridge cases. They take up too much room and you can't get an original charge in them as it is. I use wheel weight lead in my brass cartridges and get no leading.
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Old January 3, 2020, 06:32 PM   #72
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geojohn

Hawg: I wouldn't say I'm a fan of geojohn, either. I came across his site about 4 years ago and read his cap and ball stuff. It sounded reasonable, so I thought I'd try it out. So far it has worked for me. I'm trying to figure out some sort of tool to squirt a measured amount of grease on top of the wad. It's a real pain to try to dab it in with a knife blade or popsicle stick and it's hard to control the amount. It would probably be easier if I loaded the cylinders out of the revolver. L. O. G.
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Old January 4, 2020, 01:34 AM   #73
Hawg
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I lube mine with olive oil.
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Old January 4, 2020, 09:18 PM   #74
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Olive oil

I've never tried olive oil, but I read somewhere that is works. Probably on a forum somewhere. I have a little sperm oil left over from years ago when it was still legal to buy and some jojoba oil. Both work OK for cleaning, and I don't get any rusting, though the humidity is pretty high here in the Tennessee Valley. I just looked up the pronunciation of jojoba to see what is correct. I've heard it pronounced joe-JOE-buh, ho-ho-BAH and ho-HO-buh, but the last is correct. At least that's what I found on the internet, so it must be right, right? L. O. G.
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Old January 4, 2020, 11:02 PM   #75
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Ho-ho-basis how I pronounce it... and yes, I’ve used it for Cleaning as well as mixed with beeswax and applied to two layers of Bounty quicker picker uppers for the lube cookies. It’s good stuff.
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