A great article on CCW - Page 2

Glenn E. Meyer · December 19, 2011, 02:37 PM

Pax is so correct. Vicki Farnam has a great presentation of the foilbles of males choosing guns and egos.

During it - despite what she said - one guy had a minor hissy fit because his 'lady' didn't like the compact 1911 he bought her.

He liked it!

C0untZer0 · December 19, 2011, 03:07 PM

^ I was thinking about the pink guns the other day. My daughters and I were looking at Chipmunk pistols and I wanted to see which one they liked.

I did find out that they like stainless steel barrels over blued.

But all three of them wanted the pink stocks !

Of course, my oldest is only 11.

Hiker 1 · December 19, 2011, 04:23 PM

That, or husband/boyfriend/brother comes in with a woman, tells me what she needs, recommends something small and impossible for a beginner to shoot well, and informs her that she doesn't need to practice since "most encounters take place within 6/10/12 feet.

Or "get a .40, a 9mm will only pi$$ them off."

Oy vey

markj · December 19, 2011, 04:33 PM

I must be lucky, my wife had her own handgun when we married. Follishly I bought her a few boxes of ammo....

Hiker 1 · December 19, 2011, 04:36 PM

Pax - great points!

I'd like to add that sometimes when a man is into guns, he wants his lady to be into them also. Thus he recommends something that she's just not going to ever become competent with, b/c she isn't all that interested in the gun itself, though she may be very interested in self-protection.

My own wife is perfect example. She likes guns, but she's not into them like I am, so she carries a hammerless revolver for her CCW. I'd prefer she carry a G23 or P229, but it's not going to happen, so why push the issue?

On the upside, I did get a P229 out of the trial-and-error phase of this experience.

**Tom Servo** · December 19, 2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Or "get a .40, a 9mm will only pi$$ them off."

Ah, yes. I hear all the armchair expert opinions about "knockdown power" and such. A personal favorite:

"A 9mm won't do nothin'. The only thing that'll put a man down with one shot is a .45. I wouldn't trust anything else. So, I'm looking for a gun for the wife, maybe a .25 or something."

If I have a special lady friend who shows an interest in shooting, I give a few minor pointers, but ultimately the decision is hers. Furthermore, I'm going to get someone else to teach her. Credentials and experience go out the window to some point when there's an emotional attachment.

Hiker 1 · December 19, 2011, 05:34 PM

Credentials and experience go out the window to some point when there's an emotional attachment.

Nailed it!

Hunter Rose · December 19, 2011, 09:06 PM

>If the average is 2 shots at 6 feet - that doesn't mean all encounters are 2 shots at six feet.<

I really wish the FBI had never published the "gunfight statistics". Let's look at this logically...

Yes, the "average gunfight" is 2-5 shots at 7-10 feet. However: being involved in a gunfight in the first place is a statistical anomaly. Is this REALLY the time to be playing the odds?

>I have no freakin' clue. I mean, really. The last time I checked, the fair sex isn't one homogenous bloc any more than we are. The only way to know is to have the individual who will be using it choose.<

Going by anecdotal evidence, the "ultimate women's gun" is the 1911. EVERY woman I've ever taught to shoot has wanted one...

brickeyee · December 20, 2011, 01:55 PM

>If the average is 2 shots at 6 feet - that doesn't mean all encounters are 2 shots at six feet.<

Using just an average number without also giving a range (highest and lowest) for the item can often lead to bad decisions, and the statistics of infrequent events is always bad.

If Bill Gates is having a drink in a bar, on average everyone present is a millionaire.

Even the unemployed guys who begged for a single beer.

**Tom Servo** · December 21, 2011, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Yes, the "average gunfight" is 2-5 shots at 7-10 feet. However: being involved in a gunfight in the first place is a statistical anomaly. Is this REALLY the time to be playing the odds?

Anyone familiar with Dennis Teuller's work knows full well that there's little difference between six feet and twenty feet if the attacker is determined.

spaniel · December 21, 2011, 10:41 PM

"I'd like to add that sometimes when a man is into guns, he wants his lady to be into them also. Thus he recommends something that she's just not going to ever become competent with, b/c she isn't all that interested in the gun itself, though she may be very interested in self-protection.

My own wife is perfect example. She likes guns, but she's not into them like I am, so she carries a hammerless revolver for her CCW. I'd prefer she carry a G23 or P229, but it's not going to happen, so why push the issue?

On the upside, I did get a P229 out of the trial-and-error phase of this experience."

+1. While my preferred SD pistol is my G23, I felt I should be able to find something better suited for my wife, who has small hands. After an attempted break-in on our house, I wanted a second pistol in the biometric safe so if I needed to leave the bedroom she would have protection. A Taurus 85 (.38 Spl) fit her hand well so we got that....but she still preferred shooting the G23. So I got a G26. She still preferred the G23. So I got a Ruger Mark III so she could at least get more trigger time. She still preferred the G23.

Now I'm richer 3 pistols I like shooting...and wondering if I should buy a second G23. ;D

Mello2u · December 21, 2011, 11:47 PM

The linked article reiterates my many of my experiences and preferences.

Quote:

Yes, the "average gunfight" is 2-5 shots at 7-10 feet. However: being involved in a gunfight in the first place is a statistical anomaly. Is this REALLY the time to be playing the odds?

Would it be correct to say that the average is basically what falls in the 50% (fifty percentile) range?
50% is a failing grade to me.
If you choose a handgun that is only barely likely to be adequate for 50% of the shootings, that means that it won't be adequate for the other 50%.

If a situation arises where deadly force is required, you are most likely to be carrying a handgun rather than a long arm because of size and weight. In that event would you rather to be carrying a 16 oz .380acp or a larger handgun in 9mm, 40S&W, 44 Special, 10mm auto, .357 magnum, .45 Colt, .45ACP, .45GAP (or other cartridges of similar power) with which you have practiced enough regularly to know it is reliable and that you are competent in its use.
This later category of handgun would more likely be more suitable in a larger percentage of self-defense shootings, maybe approaching the 90% range.
I prefer to go for a handgun that rates an A rather than an F (50%).

As has been discussed on this forum many times, the choosing of the firearm is only a starting point. The individual then must decide what level of skill and knowledge they will seek to achieve. It is up to the individual to seek training and to practice to become competent.

Hiker 1 · December 21, 2011, 11:47 PM

and wondering if I should buy a second G23

I think you should. 'Tis the season!

Hunter Rose · December 22, 2011, 12:36 AM

I'm thinking folks are misunderstanding my comment on "statistical anomalies".

By the statistics, a snub nosed revolver should be "all you need". And if you're comfortable with that, good for you.

Personally, at a minimum. I carry a 6 shot 357, 3 reloads (2 speed strips, 1 speed loader), as well as a Seecamp 32 + reload. That's the minimum *I* carry: YMMV.

I refuse to play the odds: I will stack the deck as much in my favor as possible

December 19, 2011, 02:37 PM	#26
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Pax is so correct. Vicki Farnam has a great presentation of the foilbles of males choosing guns and egos. During it - despite what she said - one guy had a minor hissy fit because his 'lady' didn't like the compact 1911 he bought her. He liked it! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

December 19, 2011, 09:06 PM	#33
Hunter Rose Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2001 Location: 30 miles from Everywhere, right in the middle of Nowhere... Posts: 718	>If the average is 2 shots at 6 feet - that doesn't mean all encounters are 2 shots at six feet.< I really wish the FBI had never published the "gunfight statistics". Let's look at this logically... Yes, the "average gunfight" is 2-5 shots at 7-10 feet. However: being involved in a gunfight in the first place is a statistical anomaly. Is this REALLY the time to be playing the odds? >I have no freakin' clue. I mean, really. The last time I checked, the fair sex isn't one homogenous bloc any more than we are. The only way to know is to have the individual who will be using it choose.< Going by anecdotal evidence, the "ultimate women's gun" is the 1911. EVERY woman I've ever taught to shoot has wanted one... __________________ No Child Should Live In Fear Airplane Pictures

December 22, 2011, 12:36 AM	#39
Hunter Rose Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2001 Location: 30 miles from Everywhere, right in the middle of Nowhere... Posts: 718	I'm thinking folks are misunderstanding my comment on "statistical anomalies". By the statistics, a snub nosed revolver should be "all you need". And if you're comfortable with that, good for you. Personally, at a minimum. I carry a 6 shot 357, 3 reloads (2 speed strips, 1 speed loader), as well as a Seecamp 32 + reload. That's the minimum I carry: YMMV. I refuse to play the odds: I will stack the deck as much in my favor as possible __________________ No Child Should Live In Fear Airplane Pictures

December 19, 2011, 03:07 PM	#27
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	^ I was thinking about the pink guns the other day. My daughters and I were looking at Chipmunk pistols and I wanted to see which one they liked. I did find out that they like stainless steel barrels over blued. But all three of them wanted the pink stocks ! Of course, my oldest is only 11.

December 19, 2011, 04:23 PM	#28
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	That, or husband/boyfriend/brother comes in with a woman, tells me what she needs, recommends something small and impossible for a beginner to shoot well, and informs her that she doesn't need to practice since "most encounters take place within 6/10/12 feet. Or "get a .40, a 9mm will only pi$$ them off." Oy vey

December 19, 2011, 04:33 PM	#29
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	I must be lucky, my wife had her own handgun when we married. Follishly I bought her a few boxes of ammo....

December 19, 2011, 04:36 PM	#30
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	Pax - great points! I'd like to add that sometimes when a man is into guns, he wants his lady to be into them also. Thus he recommends something that she's just not going to ever become competent with, b/c she isn't all that interested in the gun itself, though she may be very interested in self-protection. My own wife is perfect example. She likes guns, but she's not into them like I am, so she carries a hammerless revolver for her CCW. I'd prefer she carry a G23 or P229, but it's not going to happen, so why push the issue? On the upside, I did get a P229 out of the trial-and-error phase of this experience.

December 19, 2011, 05:34 PM	#32
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	Credentials and experience go out the window to some point when there's an emotional attachment. Nailed it!

December 20, 2011, 01:55 PM	#34
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	>If the average is 2 shots at 6 feet - that doesn't mean all encounters are 2 shots at six feet.< Using just an average number without also giving a range (highest and lowest) for the item can often lead to bad decisions, and the statistics of infrequent events is always bad. If Bill Gates is having a drink in a bar, on average everyone present is a millionaire. Even the unemployed guys who begged for a single beer.

December 21, 2011, 10:41 PM	#36
spaniel Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2008 Posts: 217	"I'd like to add that sometimes when a man is into guns, he wants his lady to be into them also. Thus he recommends something that she's just not going to ever become competent with, b/c she isn't all that interested in the gun itself, though she may be very interested in self-protection. My own wife is perfect example. She likes guns, but she's not into them like I am, so she carries a hammerless revolver for her CCW. I'd prefer she carry a G23 or P229, but it's not going to happen, so why push the issue? On the upside, I did get a P229 out of the trial-and-error phase of this experience." +1. While my preferred SD pistol is my G23, I felt I should be able to find something better suited for my wife, who has small hands. After an attempted break-in on our house, I wanted a second pistol in the biometric safe so if I needed to leave the bedroom she would have protection. A Taurus 85 (.38 Spl) fit her hand well so we got that....but she still preferred shooting the G23. So I got a G26. She still preferred the G23. So I got a Ruger Mark III so she could at least get more trigger time. She still preferred the G23. Now I'm richer 3 pistols I like shooting...and wondering if I should buy a second G23. ;D

December 21, 2011, 11:47 PM	#38
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	and wondering if I should buy a second G23 I think you should. 'Tis the season!