The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 5, 2021, 10:49 AM   #1
DUNITALL
Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2010
Posts: 46
reload; some bulges in 44 mag.

I am using 240gr. JHP With 22.5gr.IMR4227 and the COL is 1.595. I load 10 rounds and 2 of the 10 show a slight bulge. I have not tried to go to COL of 1.600 or a little more. Max calls for 1.610. I have a Henry Big Boy and don't know what they say for COL.(any recommendations). Thanks
DUNITALL is offline  
Old April 5, 2021, 10:57 AM   #2
ballardw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 1,406
Plunk test. If the round drops into the chamber without interference the "bulge" should not be an issue.

Have you tried feeding any of them through the magazine?
__________________
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
All data is flawed, some just less so.
ballardw is offline  
Old April 5, 2021, 12:18 PM   #3
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUNITALL View Post
I am using 240gr. JHP With 22.5gr.IMR4227 and the COL is 1.595. I load 10 rounds and 2 of the 10 show a slight bulge. I have not tried to go to COL of 1.600 or a little more. Max calls for 1.610. I have a Henry Big Boy and don't know what they say for COL.(any recommendations). Thanks
Have you started with the "starting load" and worked up? Do your fired cases extract o.k.? Are the primers completely flattened?

I am assuming that you are concerned with a possible over-pressure load and your hand loads are from a published source.
dahermit is offline  
Old April 5, 2021, 12:50 PM   #4
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,653
Whose bullet?
I took a look at quick load and it looks like you may have wandered off into high compression territory depending on the bullet shank depth.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old April 5, 2021, 01:51 PM   #5
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
Dunitall,

Where is the bulge? Are you seating to the crimp groove? How much crimp are you applying?

A slightly tipped bullet can bulge the case when seating. Applying a roll crimp in the wrong place (not in the cannelure or crimp groove) can bulge a case all the way around, even to the point of it not chambering.

1980 Hornady book lists 22-25gr IMR 4227 with a 240gr JHP. 2007 Hornady book lists 20-24gr, so a load of 22.5gr should not be in dangerous territory.

You are loading for a rifle with a tube magazine. All loads should be seated to the crimp groove and crimped. Do that, and the COL takes care of itself.

Shorter than max is ok. The max listed COL is not something you have to work to, its something you should not exceed.

Cases should be trimmed to uniform length. Then crimp adjustments made on the die. If your cases vary in length (and, unless trimmed, they will) and you adjust your crimp die on a shorter case, then a longer one can overcrimp and bulge the brass. Is this, possibly, what happened??
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 5, 2021, 01:56 PM   #6
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,273
It is prudent to be concerned about pressure,
But there i another possibility.
Your Henry is a lever action fed from a tube magazine.The "lifting" involves the cartridge entering the chamber at an angle.

Have you ever watched a tractor/trailer rig negotiate a tight right turn on narrow city streets?The rear wheels may run over the corner curb.

You have a straigtt walled ,relarively long cartridge case that must go "round the corner" feeding into a close fitting straight walled chamber.

We can predict some bullet or case mouth interference at 12 oclock in the chamber,and some interference at 6 oclock at the chamber mouth.
Note the old original lever gun cartridges lile 44-40 and 38-40 had considerable taper.

I ran into this as a hobbyist gunsmith who was doing his first lever action rebuild.A Miroku/Browning 92 carbine.
I cut a Douglas barrel blank tapered octagon and converted the carbine to a 92 rifle.It came out a thing of beauty!!Rust blue,Walnut Crescent butt rifle stock fitted to me,
It showed interference chambering. While I did not reach for a Dremel,my inner Fool rushed in with the polishing stones.I stoned some leade in at the chamber mouth roughly 5 to 7 oclock.
Sure enough,it fed.

And the fired brass has a matching bulge.It just fireforms to the chamber at normal pressure.

Such are the hard lessons of learning gunsmithing without a Mentor Master.

Fortunately,as an amateur, I only work on my own guns. I don't do customers.

A potential remedy (other than a do-over barrel) might be sort of a wildcat cartridge similar to 44-40 based on 45 Colt brass . Pretty close to same rim diameter.I have not studied it close enough to know if 44-40 dies and reamers would be useful. Of course,I'd have to open the cylinders of my 1970's new model Super Blackhawk... Maybe,someday..

(Yes,I know,there are a lot of 357 and 44 mag carbines that work fine.)
HiBC is online now  
Old April 5, 2021, 02:25 PM   #7
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,021
I don't have one of the Henry's, but lever gun chambers being slightly relieved at the bottom edge of the chamber mouth to facilitate feeding is nothing new, and if that feed throating goes far enough forward, it makes room for a slight pregnancy bulge just in front of the head. Just iron it out with your resizing die. If you want, make a chamber casting or slug the chamber by Veral Smith's method to confirm this.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old April 5, 2021, 04:39 PM   #8
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
I'm under the impression that the OP was referring to handloaded ammo, not fired brass.

Hope he comes back and clears that up...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 5, 2021, 05:25 PM   #9
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,273
44AMP : Do you mean crooked bullets bulging the case? Hmmm. Could be.

I wonder if a Lyman "M" die can be located in stock? Seater plugs that match the bullet help. The floating sleeve seater dies are pricey,but they work. As I recall,Forsters are the value line.

Good question!
HiBC is online now  
Old April 5, 2021, 09:23 PM   #10
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
Quote:
44AMP : Do you mean crooked bullets bulging the case? Hmmm. Could be.
Oh, no "could be" about it. Straight walled case, slightly tipped bullet, run into the seater die can leave a bulge on one side of the brass. usually not enough to prevent chambering but visible to the eye. Does it always happen? No. But it can and has. Short generally blunt point (compared to rifle spitzers) bullets don't always completely "straighten up" on their way into the seater die. If they happen to lean just a bit to one side, the case can be bulged as the bullet is seated.

This is an operator function. Its up to the person loading to see to it that things are right, before and AS you work the handle.

Quote:
I wonder if a Lyman "M" die can be located in stock?
People talk alot about needing to get a Lyman "M" die, and their two step expander is the best thing to use. I've never needed to get a Lyman M die, because they came with the Lyman die sets I use. Just looked at the expander die in my Lyman .44 Mag deluxe set and on the die body it says "Lyman Exp Die M1". The Exp die in my .357 set says the same thing. The "M" die body is just an open tube, never contacts the case at all, and the same M die body can use any and all the different caliber expanders. They are all the same in all the Lyman 3 die sets, the only difference is the caliber expander installed.

This is something that amuses me, when people go and get a die set, have issues and then solve them by getting a Lyman M die and the proper expander. I just think "should have bought the Lyman set in the first place". Use that money you saved buying Lee!

Most of my pistol dies are Lyman, because I bought most of them back in the early 70s when I lived in the north east and Lyman was what was on every shelf back then. A few RCBSs and the Lee products was the Lee Loader...
Likewise, it was mostly Rem or Win primers, not much CCI and Federal was rare.

Moved to the Pacific NW, just the opposite. RCBS was everywhere, Lyman was scarce and so were anything but CCI primers. This was decades before the Internet and very few of us did mail order buys, because what we needed was almost always stocked on the shelf at gunshops, and even dept stores.

I use my old Lyman dies for .38/357 .44 Mag and .45ACP. I have RCBS for 9mm and .45 Colt, and also for 44AMP and .45win mag. Have a few Lee dies, don't usually use them. Not because they don't do a good enough job, but because I don't like their features. Personal preference.

So, slightly tipped bullets can cause a bulge in a case. A BAD Crimp (too much crimp, or crimp in the wrong place) can cause a bulged case, a different bulge than what you get from a tipped bullet. Cases too long for your die adjustment can do the same thing (causing a bad crimp).

Until the OP comes back with more specific information, we're stuck here with conjecture.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 7, 2021, 04:44 PM   #11
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,021
Re-reading the OP, I think you are right. He's bulging during seating. Probably bullet tilt, as you suggest. The other possibility is slightly longer cases getting over-crimped.

Usually, when I see someone buying a separate Lyman M-die it is for bottleneck rifle cartridge loading to help eliminate finished cartridge runout. The Lyman bottleneck rifle die sets don't have an M-die included. That said, at one point I got one of the Lyman Multi-expander dies, which is a powder-through die with interchangeable expanders for every common handgun bullet from .32 to .45. I've found it useful for a couple of situations where I had inherited dies or some other variation on that theme.

The UniqueTek company sells Dillon powder measure drop/operating tubes with the M-profile for pistol calibers, and that will help people having the bulging problem in Dillon presses.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old April 7, 2021, 08:21 PM   #12
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
If you already have the M die body from a pistol die set, you just need the right caliber expander to use it on rifle brass.

For many years (might still be, I don't know) it was recommended to use the "M" expander on rifle brass for loading cast bullets. It is a good idea and it does work well.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 8, 2021, 04:24 AM   #13
DUNITALL
Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2010
Posts: 46
Thank you all. Your suggestions were all great. I think that the trouble was starting the bullet not straight. I have loaded hundreds of 9's that straighten them selves but I guess the 44 are a different story. I have also adjusted the crimp and all seems to be working great Thanks DUNITALL
DUNITALL is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08581 seconds with 10 queries