Help with an identification

Benton · August 23, 2002, 02:24 PM

I'm looking to identify the model of firearm in the attached (I hope) photo. I do not have any information on it, so any leads are appreciated.

**Mike Irwin** · August 23, 2002, 08:27 PM

You know, that looks a little like a Colt Monitor, the civilian version of the Browning Automatic Rifle.

**4V50 Gary** · August 24, 2002, 12:49 PM

That appears to be a M-1 carbine magazine. The BAR magazine would be a lot bigger. This is where the old Gun Digests comes in handy - but I've only a few. I'll check later tonight to see if I can find anything. Harley?

Benton · August 24, 2002, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the ideas. Here are a couple of more photos of the same gun, closer up.

Benton · August 24, 2002, 02:03 PM

... and the other photo.

**Mike Irwin** · August 24, 2002, 04:40 PM

Yeah, you're right, Gary. But I don't think it's a carbine mag, is it?

Are there ANY markings on the gun at all?

James K · August 24, 2002, 10:24 PM

WOW! Talk about rare!

That is the carbine submitted for testing in 1941 by the Bendix Aircraft Co. It was designed by George J. Hyde. It was gas operated. It was tested by the Army on May 29, May 31, and June 13, 1941. It was one of several not adopted (the Winchester gun, using the David M. Williams short stroke piston was adopted, of course, as the U.S. Carbine M1).

The speculation about the magazine is correct; it is for the .30 carbine round, but it is not the same as the magazine used in the M1 carbine.

The Bendix gun was never produced and few (1?) exist. There is a picture, without the magazine, in Larry Ruth's "M1 Carbine, Design, Development, and Production."

Now, where did that one come from? It is certainly a rare item and a gold mine if it is in private hands.

Jim

Benton · August 25, 2002, 09:44 AM

Thanks for all the great information. I will have to do some reading on the carbine's development.

C.R.Sam · August 25, 2002, 11:51 AM

Benton...
Me curious...
Is this something that you have in hand ?

Jim Keenan...
Good work sir.

Sam

Benton · August 25, 2002, 04:40 PM

No, I do not have this item. The pictures were sent to me by an acquaintance seeking help with the identification. The Bendix is not his, and I'm not quite certain how he obtained the photos. If I find out more on the history of this particular arm (as I hope), I'll post further info.

Johnny Guest · August 27, 2002, 01:07 PM

You must have a tremendous reference library to be able to identify what might me a one-off prototype item. Impressive, sir.

Didn't Mr. Hyde also submit a design for a submachine gun in cal .45, as replacement for the Thompson? IIRC, THAT design was beaten out by the M3 "Grease Gun." Best I remember, it was a short little arm, with a wooden stock, foreend and pistol grip reminescent of the TSMG, and a straight stick magazine that angled toward the muzzle.

Best,
Johnny Guest

James K · August 27, 2002, 06:32 PM

Hi, Johnny,

Hyde submitted two guns to the submachine gun trials; the first, called the Hyde M35 was a failure, but the Hyde-Inland Model 1, was adopted as the SMG, M2, so technically it wasn't "beaten out". Nor was Hyde, who, along with Frederick Sampson of General Motors, designed the M3. (The SMG M1 was the simplified version of the Thompson, without the Blish lock, but still with the hammer and separate firing pin; the SMG M1A1 had a stub firing pin in the bolt face, like the M3 and the STEN.)

But, as you can see from the carbine pictures, Hyde was basically a designer of the old school, blue steel and polished walnut. His stuff was all forged and machined, and pretty reliable, but also heavy and very expensive to make and maintain. I suspect it took a lot of head-knocking by Col Studler to get him to work on a gun like the M3, but the result was worth it.

Even before production began, the M2 was declared substitute standard but it was still produced by Marlin, if only in limited quantity. (I don't know how many were made.) The first production guns did not reach Aberdeen for further testing until April or May 1943, five or six months after the M3 had been adopted and was in production.

Jim

Johnny Guest · August 28, 2002, 10:57 AM

Thanks for the follow-on information, Jim. I saw some of the Hyde SMGs offered for sale as DEWATS, 'way back in the late 1950s, but of course I don't know how many that company (Hunter's Lodge???) had. Besides, I was a kid mooning over other types of guns. I was saving up my money to buy a DEWAT Sten gun I had seen in some movie . . . .

Years later, I handled one of the deactivated HYDE guns briefly, but didn't have opportunity to take it apart or to learn much about it. I had hold of a set of Chinn's machine gun books for a time, but didn't think to see if he wrote on the Hyde, Then I had to give back the set.

Best,
Johnny Guest

August 23, 2002, 08:27 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You know, that looks a little like a Colt Monitor, the civilian version of the Browning Automatic Rifle. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 24, 2002, 12:49 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	That appears to be a M-1 carbine magazine. The BAR magazine would be a lot bigger. This is where the old Gun Digests comes in handy - but I've only a few. I'll check later tonight to see if I can find anything. Harley? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 24, 2002, 04:40 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Yeah, you're right, Gary. But I don't think it's a carbine mag, is it? Are there ANY markings on the gun at all? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 27, 2002, 01:07 PM	#11
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Jim Keenan, I am in awe! You must have a tremendous reference library to be able to identify what might me a one-off prototype item. Impressive, sir. Didn't Mr. Hyde also submit a design for a submachine gun in cal .45, as replacement for the Thompson? IIRC, THAT design was beaten out by the M3 "Grease Gun." Best I remember, it was a short little arm, with a wooden stock, foreend and pistol grip reminescent of the TSMG, and a straight stick magazine that angled toward the muzzle. Best, Johnny Guest

August 24, 2002, 10:24 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	WOW! Talk about rare! That is the carbine submitted for testing in 1941 by the Bendix Aircraft Co. It was designed by George J. Hyde. It was gas operated. It was tested by the Army on May 29, May 31, and June 13, 1941. It was one of several not adopted (the Winchester gun, using the David M. Williams short stroke piston was adopted, of course, as the U.S. Carbine M1). The speculation about the magazine is correct; it is for the .30 carbine round, but it is not the same as the magazine used in the M1 carbine. The Bendix gun was never produced and few (1?) exist. There is a picture, without the magazine, in Larry Ruth's "M1 Carbine, Design, Development, and Production." Now, where did that one come from? It is certainly a rare item and a gold mine if it is in private hands. Jim

August 25, 2002, 09:44 AM	#8
Benton Member Join Date: June 3, 2000 Location: South Carolina Posts: 81	Thanks for all the great information. I will have to do some reading on the carbine's development.

August 25, 2002, 11:51 AM	#9
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Benton... Me curious... Is this something that you have in hand ? Jim Keenan... Good work sir. Sam

August 25, 2002, 04:40 PM	#10
Benton Member Join Date: June 3, 2000 Location: South Carolina Posts: 81	No, I do not have this item. The pictures were sent to me by an acquaintance seeking help with the identification. The Bendix is not his, and I'm not quite certain how he obtained the photos. If I find out more on the history of this particular arm (as I hope), I'll post further info.

August 27, 2002, 06:32 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Johnny, Hyde submitted two guns to the submachine gun trials; the first, called the Hyde M35 was a failure, but the Hyde-Inland Model 1, was adopted as the SMG, M2, so technically it wasn't "beaten out". Nor was Hyde, who, along with Frederick Sampson of General Motors, designed the M3. (The SMG M1 was the simplified version of the Thompson, without the Blish lock, but still with the hammer and separate firing pin; the SMG M1A1 had a stub firing pin in the bolt face, like the M3 and the STEN.) But, as you can see from the carbine pictures, Hyde was basically a designer of the old school, blue steel and polished walnut. His stuff was all forged and machined, and pretty reliable, but also heavy and very expensive to make and maintain. I suspect it took a lot of head-knocking by Col Studler to get him to work on a gun like the M3, but the result was worth it. Even before production began, the M2 was declared substitute standard but it was still produced by Marlin, if only in limited quantity. (I don't know how many were made.) The first production guns did not reach Aberdeen for further testing until April or May 1943, five or six months after the M3 had been adopted and was in production. Jim

August 28, 2002, 10:57 AM	#13
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Thanks for the follow-on information, Jim. I saw some of the Hyde SMGs offered for sale as DEWATS, 'way back in the late 1950s, but of course I don't know how many that company (Hunter's Lodge???) had. Besides, I was a kid mooning over other types of guns. I was saving up my money to buy a DEWAT Sten gun I had seen in some movie . . . . Years later, I handled one of the deactivated HYDE guns briefly, but didn't have opportunity to take it apart or to learn much about it. I had hold of a set of Chinn's machine gun books for a time, but didn't think to see if he wrote on the Hyde, Then I had to give back the set. Best, Johnny Guest