Paper Cartridge

milcol · November 13, 2014, 09:08 AM

Has anyone used a paper cartridge made from cigarette paper powder charge and ball in a cap and ball revolver and if so how did it work out,thanks for any info

yadkin · November 13, 2014, 11:23 AM

Yea used them for years, Dixie Gun Works use to sell a pamplet on how to make and roll your own, even went into detail on how to nitrate your own papers; it works ok if speed is an issue or you don't want to carry a lot of stuff into the field outside of that just load the traditional way you will get higher velocity and better accuracy IMO.

wogpotter · November 13, 2014, 12:58 PM

I tried it with limited success. It does separate the reloading & firing process so it seems faster at the range, but I never found it overall more beneficial than loading from measures & dropping wads & balls separately before ramming.

g.willikers · November 13, 2014, 06:25 PM

On the advice of this forum, I tried using tea bags.
They work real well, too.
Surprisingly flammable and the tea can still be used for a pick me up.

Hellgate · November 14, 2014, 12:54 AM

Been there, done that. KNO3 soaked cigarette papers glued to ball or bullet. Still had occasional unburnt paper in chambers and inconsistent ignition. I kept tweezers real handy. So I started tearing open the cartridges to pour the powder into the chambers and ended up shooting the next 20,000 rounds by pouring from a flask, wadding and ramming the balls/bullets home. Usijng a flask takes a lot less time (need to factor in time to assemble cartridges) and ignition is infinitely more reliable.

davem · November 14, 2014, 03:01 PM

The military pretty much used the combustible cartridges and nothing else. Millions were manufactured during the Civil War and I have yet to find any issued revolver flasks, etc. -the default being that nothing else but combustible cartridges were used.
There is a lot of misconceptions on this ammunition. The combustible case was NOT USED so the flash of the percussion cap could "BURN THROUGH" the case and explode the powder. Case in point is that this original ammunition used a TIN FOIL case. The burst of the percussion cap is powerful enough to break the back of the case and explode the powder.
The combustible aspect was to prevent any burning embers remaining in the chamber which would explode another round during the reloading. With the metal foil- the foil would not hold an ember so no problem but with paper or fish gut an ember may be held so chemicals were added to insure the case burnt up completely.
Today's cigarette paper works "PRETTY GOOD" but it will leave some residue. The original stuff had a better treated paper. SO.....if you use cigarette paper ALWAYS inspect the chamber before putting in another round.
WHAT ABOUT THE GUYS THAT HAVE TO TEAR OR BREAK OPEN THE BACK IN ORDER TO GET 100% IGNITION? They make their cartridges with a lot of paper folded and bunched up at the back. Use an isosceles trapezoid shape with a square tab on the lower base, the tab folded over the back so only a single layer of paper is in that area. Use a glue stick to hold all together.
The original stuff used conical bullets many with a rebate around the base into which the case fit- Dixie did/or may still sell that style. 15- 18 gr. was the typical charge. The small charge was because the long conical reduced available space.

Hawg · November 14, 2014, 03:39 PM

I've used tea bags. They're tougher than cig paper and burn clean with no nitrating but IMO paper cartridges are tedious to make.

DD4lifeusmc · November 14, 2014, 10:01 PM

Been making them for numerous years.
But mine are separate from the projectile.
With practice they are easy and work good.
Lot less work than nitrating your own paper.
You have to go buy the nitrate, buy the paper, cut it to size, soak it, dry it
then roll it.
The zig zags work just fine for me

wogpotter · November 15, 2014, 09:59 AM

They worked for me too. I just couldn't see the advantage when looking at the overall picture.

What may factor into this that hasn't been discussed is wads. If you use wads then its a very complicated business making a ball-wad-powder paper cartridge that has the wad's lube separated from the powder in the charge.

davem · November 15, 2014, 01:22 PM

Using a ball with a paper cartridge is a bother, the conicals fit it and glue up better- at least for me...BUT....I personally think the whole paper cartridge thing is best left as an experience for "bonding" with the past. Try it at the range a time or two and then let it go. The combustibles don't provide much protection from a chain firing unless you fit in some sort of pre-lubed wad. The far better alternative if you want "field ammunition" in a small package is to make about 20 small paper tubes, closed on one end and a cap top for the other- these will be re-useable. Carry powder charges in them and store in an Altoids can. In this same can store the caps, wads and balls. Then you have really good loads and with the wads- safer to use.

wogpotter · November 15, 2014, 01:58 PM

Agreed but I'll go one better.
There are commercially available soft rubbery plastic tubes with a cap. Dump in the powder & squish the ball in the end to seal.
They're machine washable & about infinitely reusable.

davem · November 17, 2014, 12:02 PM

I did the paper because I'm cheap but the plastic tubes would be the better. The MAIN THING is that the tubes (paper or plastic) are really a lot better than the combustible type cartridge. Loading both powder and ball at the same time obviously is a hazard if an ember is in the chamber- far better if you just poured in the charge. The combustibles are also fragile and subject to breaking while in a carrying container. Then with the tubes you can add pre-lubed wads which help ward off a chain firing.

wogpotter · November 17, 2014, 04:44 PM

I wish!
The problem with lubed wads is powder contamination.

davem · November 18, 2014, 01:10 PM

That might be a problem if you loaded up with lubed wads and then carried the gun in that manner- I'm not certain on that- but I use lubed wads at the range on a regular basis without any troubles.
Question? I am not certain a lubed wad does or doesn't effect the powder in a loaded revolver if carried a long period of time. The answer may rest in the kind of lube used. The Civil War general Lee had the ends of his Colt 1851 sealed. It was red wax and since he had red sealing wax on his orders the thought is the same stuff was used to seal the ends of the chambers. The revolver was fired 7 years after he died and the gun may have never been fired since the War- so....loaded maybe 20 years and all six chambers fired ok. On the wads- Sam Colt had a cork wafer (wad) on the base of the conical on one of his early combustible cartridges and then dropped it. I know Elmer Keith used wads. He cut his from old Stetsons and lubed them in a 50/50 mix of tallow (rendered beef fat) and beeswax and I think he carried them that way.

T. O'Heir · November 18, 2014, 02:56 PM

Have a .pdf how-to if anybody wants it. Uses regular copier/printer paper, as I recall. No chemicals involved.
Same .pdf has the how-to for making .577/450 brass out of 3/4" bar stock.
Soft rubbery plastic tubes will gum up your firearm. Paper get blown out with the shot. Plastic will melt and stick.

wogpotter · November 18, 2014, 04:05 PM

Quote:

That might be a problem if you loaded up with lubed wads and then carried the gun in that manner- I'm not certain on that- but I use lubed wads at the range on a regular basis without any troubles.

I'm thinking the wad in a paper cartridge over time will be a problem. Short term no problem I've done it. But if left for a longer period it is asking for trouble with some lubes.

wogpotter · November 18, 2014, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Soft rubbery plastic tubes will gum up your firearm.

Not really, you see they don't go in the gun, they are just used to transport the pre-made load.

James K · November 19, 2014, 12:35 AM

"[General Lee's]...revolver was fired 7 years after he died and the gun may have never been fired since the War..."

Given General Lee's rank, is there any record of his ever firing his revolver (or any other gun) during the war?

Jim

davem · November 19, 2014, 11:32 AM

No knowledge on whether R.E. fired the Colt during the War. He operated behind lines during the Mexican War (that is- eyeball to eyeball with the enemy) so he wasn't an armchair general. He might have fired the revolver time to time if he thought the integrity of the load might be getting too old- I just don't know.
On the paper or plastic tubes- I didn't explain correctly. The paper tubes are mini-speed loaders, they don't go into the chamber. You measure out a charge of powder and then put on the top part of the tube or plug it with a ball/conical. I have 100 of these paper tubes but only put about 20-25 in an Altoids can. In the same Altoids can I put 20 round balls, 20 loose wads, and a small plastic baggies bag of caps, plus a nipple wrench. To load, take the top/bullet off/out of the paper tube and pour the charge in the chamber, Then put the paper tube back in the Altoid can- to be reused.
On the Sam Colt "wad" used on an early combustible cartridge. If I recall from the patent it was thin and of cork. It must not have been necessary because he stopped using it.
You can use various patterns on the paper case. Sam Colt made an isosceles trapezoid. The top was wider than the base, the angles on the sides made the finished case tapered. The base had an attached round tab that was folded up over the back to close the back of the tube. I made a cardboard template like that and mark cigarette paper to the template pattern and then glue the sides and back trapdoor in place with a glue stick. The gummed edge of the cigarette paper is on top- on the inside. Put in the powder, then the bullet, then lick the cigarette paper and the moisture activates the glue and glues the case to the bullet.

maillemaker · November 20, 2014, 09:52 AM

If you are interested in the history of authentic cartridges I highly recommend the 4-volume series Round Ball to Rimfire by Thomas. One of the volumes I believe is specifically dedicated to revolver ammunition.

Steve

Hawg · November 20, 2014, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Given General Lee's rank, is there any record of his ever firing his revolver (or any other gun) during the war?

Not to my knowledge. As for the wax over the balls, I read somewhere it was a black waxy substance. I think it was probably used as waterproofing more than a lube.

davem · November 20, 2014, 05:06 PM

Yeah, red or black, I assumed in was to keep the charge dry.

Rachen · November 21, 2014, 09:22 PM

I roll my own smokes, and I am not talking about cigarettes at all

As a member here said earlier, the military exclusively used paper cartridges. The reason? Convenience and reliability. An experienced fighter can reload a Navy six with paper cartridges just as fast as someone manually ejecting spent casings from a modern revolver with a dowel and then inserting new rounds.

Two boxes, each containing six .36 caliber paper cartridges with ball loads or nine .44 paper cartridges fit perfectly into a belt mounted smartphone case.

davem · November 22, 2014, 04:01 PM

The whole subject on combustible cartridges is pretty interesting and it is the "great unknown" on percussion revolvers for most folks. Not that many people realize that combustible cartridges were the standard way these revolvers were used in the military and by lots of other folks as well, such as Western lawmen. On the western lawmen- you could get heavier powder charges loading from a flask so that's how they started out the day and they toted a packet or two of the combustible cartridges for fast reloading.
These cartridges were sold in small wood boxes. The box could be one or two pieces but in both situations there was a wrapper around the outside and a pull string/wire that you pulled to rip open the wrapper and expose the ammunition. Some manufacturers included a hole in the box containing caps.
So....you grabbed the box, pulled the string, and dumped out the six rounds and reloaded ASAP. The wrapper was usually shellacked or varnished to make it waterproof. The military required the packet (the wood box) to be soaked underwater at least 4 hours before buying the ammunition.
If you search the net the original packets are sold as collectibles and there are a lot of images- plus the afore-mentioned books.
There were packets for all the various type revolvers- 36 Navy, 44 Army, the little 31 caliber.
BTW- as I already posted- the first rounds had a foil case so the round itself was waterproof. These were sold in heavy brown paper hence the term "packet". Later, when the paper or fish gut cases were used the rounds were sold in the wood boxes however the term "packet" continued to be used. That's why the wood boxes are called "packets". These boxes were about the size of a deck of p-laying cards. I think two will fit into a cavalryman's "cap" box worn on a belt.

MIOkie · November 23, 2014, 11:36 AM

The military aspect on the use of paper cartridges is very interesting.

I wonder how much logistics came into play.

With pre-made cartridges they would have an accurate count on how many rounds they had in the field, and for which weapons.

Dispensing pre-made cartridges from the ammunition wagon sounds a lot easier than dishing out loose powder and bullets.

Easier, too, for the quartermaster I would guess.

I have read that the waste of ammunition was much frowned upon by those higher up the command chain.

November 13, 2014, 09:08 AM	#1
milcol Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2006 Posts: 5	Paper Cartridge Has anyone used a paper cartridge made from cigarette paper powder charge and ball in a cap and ball revolver and if so how did it work out,thanks for any info

November 13, 2014, 12:58 PM	#3
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	I tried it with limited success. It does separate the reloading & firing process so it seems faster at the range, but I never found it overall more beneficial than loading from measures & dropping wads & balls separately before ramming. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 13, 2014, 06:25 PM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	On the advice of this forum, I tried using tea bags. They work real well, too. Surprisingly flammable and the tea can still be used for a pick me up. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 14, 2014, 12:54 AM	#5
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Been there, done that. KNO3 soaked cigarette papers glued to ball or bullet. Still had occasional unburnt paper in chambers and inconsistent ignition. I kept tweezers real handy. So I started tearing open the cartridges to pour the powder into the chambers and ended up shooting the next 20,000 rounds by pouring from a flask, wadding and ramming the balls/bullets home. Usijng a flask takes a lot less time (need to factor in time to assemble cartridges) and ignition is infinitely more reliable. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

November 14, 2014, 10:01 PM	#8
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	paper cartridge Been making them for numerous years. But mine are separate from the projectile. With practice they are easy and work good. Lot less work than nitrating your own paper. You have to go buy the nitrate, buy the paper, cut it to size, soak it, dry it then roll it. The zig zags work just fine for me

November 13, 2014, 11:23 AM	#2
yadkin Member Join Date: September 21, 2012 Location: North Alabama The Heart o Posts: 32	Yea used them for years, Dixie Gun Works use to sell a pamplet on how to make and roll your own, even went into detail on how to nitrate your own papers; it works ok if speed is an issue or you don't want to carry a lot of stuff into the field outside of that just load the traditional way you will get higher velocity and better accuracy IMO.

November 14, 2014, 03:01 PM	#6
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	The military pretty much used the combustible cartridges and nothing else. Millions were manufactured during the Civil War and I have yet to find any issued revolver flasks, etc. -the default being that nothing else but combustible cartridges were used. There is a lot of misconceptions on this ammunition. The combustible case was NOT USED so the flash of the percussion cap could "BURN THROUGH" the case and explode the powder. Case in point is that this original ammunition used a TIN FOIL case. The burst of the percussion cap is powerful enough to break the back of the case and explode the powder. The combustible aspect was to prevent any burning embers remaining in the chamber which would explode another round during the reloading. With the metal foil- the foil would not hold an ember so no problem but with paper or fish gut an ember may be held so chemicals were added to insure the case burnt up completely. Today's cigarette paper works "PRETTY GOOD" but it will leave some residue. The original stuff had a better treated paper. SO.....if you use cigarette paper ALWAYS inspect the chamber before putting in another round. WHAT ABOUT THE GUYS THAT HAVE TO TEAR OR BREAK OPEN THE BACK IN ORDER TO GET 100% IGNITION? They make their cartridges with a lot of paper folded and bunched up at the back. Use an isosceles trapezoid shape with a square tab on the lower base, the tab folded over the back so only a single layer of paper is in that area. Use a glue stick to hold all together. The original stuff used conical bullets many with a rebate around the base into which the case fit- Dixie did/or may still sell that style. 15- 18 gr. was the typical charge. The small charge was because the long conical reduced available space.

November 14, 2014, 03:39 PM	#7
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I've used tea bags. They're tougher than cig paper and burn clean with no nitrating but IMO paper cartridges are tedious to make.

November 15, 2014, 09:59 AM	#9
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	They worked for me too. I just couldn't see the advantage when looking at the overall picture. What may factor into this that hasn't been discussed is wads. If you use wads then its a very complicated business making a ball-wad-powder paper cartridge that has the wad's lube separated from the powder in the charge. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 15, 2014, 01:22 PM	#10
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	Using a ball with a paper cartridge is a bother, the conicals fit it and glue up better- at least for me...BUT....I personally think the whole paper cartridge thing is best left as an experience for "bonding" with the past. Try it at the range a time or two and then let it go. The combustibles don't provide much protection from a chain firing unless you fit in some sort of pre-lubed wad. The far better alternative if you want "field ammunition" in a small package is to make about 20 small paper tubes, closed on one end and a cap top for the other- these will be re-useable. Carry powder charges in them and store in an Altoids can. In this same can store the caps, wads and balls. Then you have really good loads and with the wads- safer to use.

November 15, 2014, 01:58 PM	#11
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Agreed but I'll go one better. There are commercially available soft rubbery plastic tubes with a cap. Dump in the powder & squish the ball in the end to seal. They're machine washable & about infinitely reusable. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 17, 2014, 12:02 PM	#12
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	I did the paper because I'm cheap but the plastic tubes would be the better. The MAIN THING is that the tubes (paper or plastic) are really a lot better than the combustible type cartridge. Loading both powder and ball at the same time obviously is a hazard if an ember is in the chamber- far better if you just poured in the charge. The combustibles are also fragile and subject to breaking while in a carrying container. Then with the tubes you can add pre-lubed wads which help ward off a chain firing.

November 17, 2014, 04:44 PM	#13
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	I wish! The problem with lubed wads is powder contamination. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 18, 2014, 01:10 PM	#14
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	That might be a problem if you loaded up with lubed wads and then carried the gun in that manner- I'm not certain on that- but I use lubed wads at the range on a regular basis without any troubles. Question? I am not certain a lubed wad does or doesn't effect the powder in a loaded revolver if carried a long period of time. The answer may rest in the kind of lube used. The Civil War general Lee had the ends of his Colt 1851 sealed. It was red wax and since he had red sealing wax on his orders the thought is the same stuff was used to seal the ends of the chambers. The revolver was fired 7 years after he died and the gun may have never been fired since the War- so....loaded maybe 20 years and all six chambers fired ok. On the wads- Sam Colt had a cork wafer (wad) on the base of the conical on one of his early combustible cartridges and then dropped it. I know Elmer Keith used wads. He cut his from old Stetsons and lubed them in a 50/50 mix of tallow (rendered beef fat) and beeswax and I think he carried them that way.

November 18, 2014, 02:56 PM	#15
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Have a .pdf how-to if anybody wants it. Uses regular copier/printer paper, as I recall. No chemicals involved. Same .pdf has the how-to for making .577/450 brass out of 3/4" bar stock. Soft rubbery plastic tubes will gum up your firearm. Paper get blown out with the shot. Plastic will melt and stick. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 19, 2014, 12:35 AM	#18
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"[General Lee's]...revolver was fired 7 years after he died and the gun may have never been fired since the War..." Given General Lee's rank, is there any record of his ever firing his revolver (or any other gun) during the war? Jim

November 19, 2014, 11:32 AM	#19
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	No knowledge on whether R.E. fired the Colt during the War. He operated behind lines during the Mexican War (that is- eyeball to eyeball with the enemy) so he wasn't an armchair general. He might have fired the revolver time to time if he thought the integrity of the load might be getting too old- I just don't know. On the paper or plastic tubes- I didn't explain correctly. The paper tubes are mini-speed loaders, they don't go into the chamber. You measure out a charge of powder and then put on the top part of the tube or plug it with a ball/conical. I have 100 of these paper tubes but only put about 20-25 in an Altoids can. In the same Altoids can I put 20 round balls, 20 loose wads, and a small plastic baggies bag of caps, plus a nipple wrench. To load, take the top/bullet off/out of the paper tube and pour the charge in the chamber, Then put the paper tube back in the Altoid can- to be reused. On the Sam Colt "wad" used on an early combustible cartridge. If I recall from the patent it was thin and of cork. It must not have been necessary because he stopped using it. You can use various patterns on the paper case. Sam Colt made an isosceles trapezoid. The top was wider than the base, the angles on the sides made the finished case tapered. The base had an attached round tab that was folded up over the back to close the back of the tube. I made a cardboard template like that and mark cigarette paper to the template pattern and then glue the sides and back trapdoor in place with a glue stick. The gummed edge of the cigarette paper is on top- on the inside. Put in the powder, then the bullet, then lick the cigarette paper and the moisture activates the glue and glues the case to the bullet.

November 20, 2014, 09:52 AM	#20
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	If you are interested in the history of authentic cartridges I highly recommend the 4-volume series Round Ball to Rimfire by Thomas. One of the volumes I believe is specifically dedicated to revolver ammunition. Steve

November 20, 2014, 05:06 PM	#22
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	Yeah, red or black, I assumed in was to keep the charge dry.

November 21, 2014, 09:22 PM	#23
Rachen Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2006 Location: Weekend cowboy Posts: 542	I roll my own smokes, and I am not talking about cigarettes at all As a member here said earlier, the military exclusively used paper cartridges. The reason? Convenience and reliability. An experienced fighter can reload a Navy six with paper cartridges just as fast as someone manually ejecting spent casings from a modern revolver with a dowel and then inserting new rounds. Two boxes, each containing six .36 caliber paper cartridges with ball loads or nine .44 paper cartridges fit perfectly into a belt mounted smartphone case.

November 22, 2014, 04:01 PM	#24
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	The whole subject on combustible cartridges is pretty interesting and it is the "great unknown" on percussion revolvers for most folks. Not that many people realize that combustible cartridges were the standard way these revolvers were used in the military and by lots of other folks as well, such as Western lawmen. On the western lawmen- you could get heavier powder charges loading from a flask so that's how they started out the day and they toted a packet or two of the combustible cartridges for fast reloading. These cartridges were sold in small wood boxes. The box could be one or two pieces but in both situations there was a wrapper around the outside and a pull string/wire that you pulled to rip open the wrapper and expose the ammunition. Some manufacturers included a hole in the box containing caps. So....you grabbed the box, pulled the string, and dumped out the six rounds and reloaded ASAP. The wrapper was usually shellacked or varnished to make it waterproof. The military required the packet (the wood box) to be soaked underwater at least 4 hours before buying the ammunition. If you search the net the original packets are sold as collectibles and there are a lot of images- plus the afore-mentioned books. There were packets for all the various type revolvers- 36 Navy, 44 Army, the little 31 caliber. BTW- as I already posted- the first rounds had a foil case so the round itself was waterproof. These were sold in heavy brown paper hence the term "packet". Later, when the paper or fish gut cases were used the rounds were sold in the wood boxes however the term "packet" continued to be used. That's why the wood boxes are called "packets". These boxes were about the size of a deck of p-laying cards. I think two will fit into a cavalryman's "cap" box worn on a belt.

November 23, 2014, 11:36 AM	#25
MIOkie Member Join Date: April 13, 2014 Location: NE Oklahoma Posts: 39	The military aspect on the use of paper cartridges is very interesting. I wonder how much logistics came into play. With pre-made cartridges they would have an accurate count on how many rounds they had in the field, and for which weapons. Dispensing pre-made cartridges from the ammunition wagon sounds a lot easier than dishing out loose powder and bullets. Easier, too, for the quartermaster I would guess. I have read that the waste of ammunition was much frowned upon by those higher up the command chain.