Announcement turned Discussion ... Heads Up!

**Bud Helms** · July 6, 2009, 08:42 AM

There are an increasing number of multiple gun photos being entered in the monthly contests. Rule #1 and the supplemental paragraph, Tips, list specific exceptions to that rule. Read the rules, especially Rule #1 and "Tips" in Rule #1. Multiple guns in a photo will be tested against Rule #1.

Pictures that have the theme of a commercial flyer, whether or not you took the trouble to make it up for entry here, are not in the spirit of the contest. If your entry contains text overlay that lists the features of your gun and take on the appearance of a commercial flyer, it will be deleted.

IdahoG36 · July 6, 2009, 01:40 PM

Seems like too many rules and restrictions for what is supposed to be a fun contest. Limiting somebody's creativeness to fit a certain format doesn't seem fair.
I can definitely see limiting everybody to one entry per month, but restricting the amount of firearms in the pic or the content of the pic is not acceptable in my opinion.
Don't forget, the photo of the year for 2008 had multiple firearms in it.

I see that you deleted another member's photo from the July contest that contained a Baby Eagle with the specs listed. That was a photo that somebody took the time to compose and edit for the enjoyment of other TFL members that participate in the contest. That doesn't seem to matter, as it was deleted.

I'm not trying to cause any problems, but I am not happy with these rules, and maybe some other TFL members feel the same. Just thought you might like some feedback.

RockyTop · July 6, 2009, 03:55 PM

I'm fairly new here, but I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents anyway. Since this is a photo contest - and not a poster contest, brochure contest or a photoshop contest, I don't see a problem with just taking an artistic photo of a firearm and then entering it. While I do think some of the 'posters' look cool that's not what this is about. Although that may be a good idea for another contest.

Renny · July 6, 2009, 05:54 PM

My photo got deleted to, i did read the rules but i did not catch the two guns in one pic rule...to bad...almost every winning photo of 2008 had more than one gun in the picture

Smokin_Gun · July 7, 2009, 01:49 AM

Must be why mine got removed too...a Walker and a Dragoon. Well ya may as well take off the one i jus' posted top replace it then...I'll find a single Gun pic maybe...

Freakdaddy · July 7, 2009, 09:54 AM

I'm in full agreement with Idaho. Although it's good to have rules and guidelines to maintain structure, you need to be careful as there's also a fine line between fun and totalitarianism. I don't see any reason not to allow pics of multiple guns whether they "fit" in with each other or not. If someone want's to submit their entire gun collection than so be it as well. Even the Baby Eagle tech spec submission was fine with me. Would I have voted for it? Most likely not because of the writing overlay but that's just me. I don't think Art's Grandma would have been offended by it so it should have stayed. I don't think any member's submission should be "removed" unless it's distasteful or a hijacked photo from a manufacturer's website. What's next, no Photoshop effects? That's going to be bad news for Doogle LOL!

I've entered every one of these since it's inception and I look forward to seeing what new pics are going to get posted. I enjoy the creativity that many members have shown over the past year and it's great to see how much it has grown both in talent and participation. We need to get "back to basics" with minimal guidelines and expectations to maintain the initial purpose of the TFL Photo Contest...to have fun with a little friendly competition thrown in. I'm afraid if it becomes to regimed, participation will die off and we won't get to see all those wonderful gun pictures...which really is what it's all about.

**Bud Helms** · July 7, 2009, 10:39 AM

Well ... listen, these rules are not the type that can't be changed. If you guys want to allow some more leeway, there is no reason why we can't loosen up the rules some. This is supposed to be for fun.

Understand that we were just trying to keep things even and fair. If the new two gun rule is hampering the contest, then we can ease up on it. I notice there is another with two Dan Wessons I have not deleted yet.

How about this. I'll go back and undelete those entries that had two handguns in them ... if you guys want to open this up to distance shots of collections, I don't have a problem with it because it's a popularity contest: best photo wins. We can completely do away with a limit on the number of guns in a photo. That's up to you guys. But let's finish this July Contest with a limit of two, and we'll be liberal on that ... then I'll start a poll and try to get some opinions from you guys. Then in August we'll try to implement the results of the poll in August. There may be more than one poll to cover what you guys want to change. So chime in here and let's find out what you'd like to see polled for changes in the contest.

As far as the entries that look like manufacturer's flyers, I have a problem with them because we would have to go to the manufacturers website and search to make sure it wasn't a copy. That's not fair either. I already did that once a few months back. [Edit: we can leave these in the contest if you guys, the competitors, will go out and research the legitimacy of the photo.]

For those of you that had entries deleted, you may need to go back and reattach the photos. If the edit timer has timed out, just make another entry and I'll delete the first entry. It would help if you sent me a PM that you had to re-enter.

Fair enough?

Bud

**Bud Helms** · July 7, 2009, 10:57 AM

Okay, I have restored Smokin_Gun's entry and JohnPaul's entry.

One of these is a mfr's flyer type of entry ... up to you guys to prove it's not legit.

Doogle · July 7, 2009, 11:13 AM

...& contests have rules. Part of creativity is to work within those rules.

Something to avoid, as much as possible, are rules that leave Bud having to make value judgements that leave him open to criticism.

One gun, two guns, a thousand...I don't mind.

hogdogs · July 7, 2009, 11:13 AM

Since it is a photography contest rather than a "pretty gun" contest... Multiple guns doesn't bother me. So long as there is all the qualities of a nice photo. But the text shouldn't be allowed as it totally ruins the photo aspect like sneezed scrambled egg all over the image.
Brent

**Bud Helms** · July 7, 2009, 11:33 AM

Thanks for that, Doogle.

hogdogs, I personally don't like the text overlay pics, ala mfr's flyer, but you know what(?) ... the voting will weed them out.

Freakdaddy · July 7, 2009, 11:38 AM

Sounds more than fair Bud. Thanks for listening.

Quote:

But the text shouldn't be allowed as it totally ruins the photo aspect

I agree as it does take away from the photo and may be opening the door for all kinds of "sayings"...kind of like the motivational posters you see so often on the forums. Today it may be the specs of a weapon, tomorrow it may be "1911...It's what Jesus would shoot". Whatever the decision, let's implement it next month as well so no pictures get the boot again this month.

Quote:

the voting will weed them out.

Precisely.

**Bud Helms** · July 7, 2009, 12:20 PM

Okay, you guys go to the photo contest rules thread and look for bolding and strikeouts. There are changes to support this agreement we have. Any changes I should have made and missed ... PM me.

Bud

IdahoG36 · July 7, 2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Well ... listen, these rules are not the type that can't be changed. If you guys want to allow some more leeway, there is no reason why we can't loosen up the rules some. This is supposed to be for fun.

Understand that we were just trying to keep things even and fair. If the new two gun rule is hampering the contest, then we can ease up on it. I notice there is another with two Dan Wessons I have not deleted yet.

How about this. I'll go back and undelete those entries that had two handguns in them ... if you guys want to open this up to distance shots of collections, I don't have a problem with it because it's a popularity contest: best photo wins. We can completely do away with a limit on the number of guns in a photo. That's up to you guys. But let's finish this July Contest with a limit of two, and we'll be liberal on that ... then I'll start a poll and try to get some opinions from you guys. Then in August we'll try to implement the results of the poll in August. There may be more than one poll to cover what you guys want to change. So chime in here and let's find out what you'd like to see polled for changes in the contest.

As far as the entries that look like manufacturer's flyers, I have a problem with them because we would have to go to the manufacturers website and search to make sure it wasn't a copy. That's not fair either. I already did that once a few months back. [Edit: we can leave these in the contest if you guys, the competitors, will go out and research the legitimacy of the photo.]

For those of you that had entries deleted, you may need to go back and reattach the photos. If the edit timer has timed out, just make another entry and I'll delete the first entry. It would help if you sent me a PM that you had to re-enter.

Fair enough?

Bud

I think that is very fair. Thank you for being open to discussion about the rules as well, instead of saying that's the way it is, live with it.

I think that starting a poll to see what everybody thinks about multiple gun pics and advertisement-like pics would be a good thing to do. See how people feel about it and go from there.

J.Netto · July 7, 2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

I think that is very fair. Thank you for being open to discussion about the rules as well

I agree, and thanks again Bud for helping me earlier today.

James

**Bud Helms** · July 7, 2009, 05:00 PM

No problem, gentlemen. As long as we maintain a spirit of fairness and you guys police each other, the contest is foremost. I've never seen such beautiful pics.

**Bud Helms** · July 8, 2009, 10:05 AM

Well, I'm having trouble building a poll. 'Can't seem to assemble the ideas to vote on, cause we've taken care of the one we had on the table, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Why don't you guys just come to this thread and make suggestions? We can discuss ideas right here. Are any of the existing contest rules too restrictive? Do any of the rules need to be maybe modified?

Brian Pfleuger · July 8, 2009, 10:10 AM

We need to make the mods work more....

Not monthly contest, but monthly contestS.

One pistol
One rifle
One pistol with one rifle
Two pistols
Two rifles
Two rifles with two pistols
Three or more pistols with one rifle
Three or more pistols with more than one rifle
and so on....

It would be the modern, politically correct thing to do. So many contests that there is only one entry per, ensuring that no one loses.

Freakdaddy · July 9, 2009, 01:02 AM

I sense someone is about to be banned LOL!

**Bud Helms** · July 9, 2009, 01:04 AM

I would then need to appoint people to monitor and administrate these contests. That'll teach ya.

Doogle · July 9, 2009, 05:45 AM

...after your amendments to the rules, Bud. You've addressed the main point that was raised.

In the end, be it one gun or many, the photographer still needs to produce a good image.

Thanks.

**Bud Helms** · July 9, 2009, 09:01 AM

Yes, I was thinking maybe it would be more responsive if we just brought our complaints here and if warranted, run a poll on that issue. In other words, deal with any perceived needed changes as they come along.

ClemBert · July 11, 2009, 10:13 PM

So what is the rule regarding using PhotoShop or some other PC tool to manipulate an original photo? I've seen a number of "photos" that appear to me to have been edited with software. I'm not saying I'm against it but I'm saying that in past contests it would appear that some were not playing by "the rules" by either significant enhancements or by creating transparent backgrounds then applying a fake background. Again...not a complaint but it would seem that some people had their photos removed whereas others were allowed to stay. Or am I just smokin' something funny?

Doogle · July 12, 2009, 04:29 AM

...and to similar ends as when I used film and paper techniques in a darkroom. Now I use a computer. Processing is part & parcel of the process for a photographer to create a final image. Processing may include adjustments to contrast, sharpness, colour correction, gamma, etc, or may include use of various filters and effects. This is photography, always has been. Taking the picture is only a beginning.

The rules state : "One picture post (one entry) per member. One angle. One photo shot."

I would expect that what you do with that one shot is up to you. Work within the rules and you should be OK.

**Bud Helms** · July 12, 2009, 04:44 AM

I'm in agreement with Doogle. At any rate, there's no way we could enforce a rule like "No Photoshopping".

It's ironic. I have a Canon A-1 in my closet. I have a FujiFilm 2400Z. Which one do you think I use? Yeah. I've taken the batteries out of the Canon for long term storage. When you start with a digital image and download it to your computer for printing or uploading here. The issue of manipulation is ... well, you start with size manipulation, and it goes from there. A simple dropdown menu, area selection, click of the button. Sometimes it is so subtle, you never know.

A natural shot seems to be the goal, but antiquing, tinting, sepia effects ... I think we're already there in this monthly contest. Without the original file and the specific application used to make the changes, there's no way to investigate each photo and enforce it. Some of it is obvious and some not so much.

This "new" approach and relaxation of the more-than-one-gun rule relies, without a doubt, on the vote to weed out the artificial. But then ... if that's what you all like it will stay. I look at past winners and I am encouraged at the obvious discerning taste and skills I see here each month. There are some outright professional quality entries here and I don't take it as accidental.

July 6, 2009, 01:40 PM	#2
IdahoG36 Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 2,993	Seems like too many rules and restrictions for what is supposed to be a fun contest. Limiting somebody's creativeness to fit a certain format doesn't seem fair. I can definitely see limiting everybody to one entry per month, but restricting the amount of firearms in the pic or the content of the pic is not acceptable in my opinion. Don't forget, the photo of the year for 2008 had multiple firearms in it. I see that you deleted another member's photo from the July contest that contained a Baby Eagle with the specs listed. That was a photo that somebody took the time to compose and edit for the enjoyment of other TFL members that participate in the contest. That doesn't seem to matter, as it was deleted. I'm not trying to cause any problems, but I am not happy with these rules, and maybe some other TFL members feel the same. Just thought you might like some feedback. Last edited by IdahoG36; July 7, 2009 at 06:41 PM.

July 6, 2009, 05:54 PM	#4
Renny Member Join Date: May 16, 2007 Location: Chaco Paraguay Posts: 96	ups...its gone My photo got deleted to, i did read the rules but i did not catch the two guns in one pic rule...to bad...almost every winning photo of 2008 had more than one gun in the picture

July 7, 2009, 01:49 AM	#5
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Must be why mine got removed too...a Walker and a Dragoon. Well ya may as well take off the one i jus' posted top replace it then...I'll find a single Gun pic maybe... __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

July 7, 2009, 11:13 AM	#9
Doogle Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2004 Posts: 399	Life's full of rules...> ...& contests have rules. Part of creativity is to work within those rules. Something to avoid, as much as possible, are rules that leave Bud having to make value judgements that leave him open to criticism. One gun, two guns, a thousand...I don't mind.

July 8, 2009, 10:10 AM	#18
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	We need to make the mods work more.... Not monthly contest, but monthly contestS. One pistol One rifle One pistol with one rifle Two pistols Two rifles Two rifles with two pistols Three or more pistols with one rifle Three or more pistols with more than one rifle and so on.... It would be the modern, politically correct thing to do. So many contests that there is only one entry per, ensuring that no one loses. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 6, 2009, 08:42 AM	#1
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Announcement turned Discussion ... Heads Up! There are an increasing number of multiple gun photos being entered in the monthly contests. Rule #1 and the supplemental paragraph, Tips, list specific exceptions to that rule. Read the rules, especially Rule #1 and "Tips" in Rule #1. Multiple guns in a photo will be tested against Rule #1. Pictures that have the theme of a commercial flyer, whether or not you took the trouble to make it up for entry here, are not in the spirit of the contest. If your entry contains text overlay that lists the features of your gun and take on the appearance of a commercial flyer, it will be deleted.

July 6, 2009, 03:55 PM	#3
RockyTop Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2009 Posts: 106	I'm fairly new here, but I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents anyway. Since this is a photo contest - and not a poster contest, brochure contest or a photoshop contest, I don't see a problem with just taking an artistic photo of a firearm and then entering it. While I do think some of the 'posters' look cool that's not what this is about. Although that may be a good idea for another contest.

July 7, 2009, 09:54 AM	#6
Freakdaddy Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2006 Posts: 442	I'm in full agreement with Idaho. Although it's good to have rules and guidelines to maintain structure, you need to be careful as there's also a fine line between fun and totalitarianism. I don't see any reason not to allow pics of multiple guns whether they "fit" in with each other or not. If someone want's to submit their entire gun collection than so be it as well. Even the Baby Eagle tech spec submission was fine with me. Would I have voted for it? Most likely not because of the writing overlay but that's just me. I don't think Art's Grandma would have been offended by it so it should have stayed. I don't think any member's submission should be "removed" unless it's distasteful or a hijacked photo from a manufacturer's website. What's next, no Photoshop effects? That's going to be bad news for Doogle LOL! I've entered every one of these since it's inception and I look forward to seeing what new pics are going to get posted. I enjoy the creativity that many members have shown over the past year and it's great to see how much it has grown both in talent and participation. We need to get "back to basics" with minimal guidelines and expectations to maintain the initial purpose of the TFL Photo Contest...to have fun with a little friendly competition thrown in. I'm afraid if it becomes to regimed, participation will die off and we won't get to see all those wonderful gun pictures...which really is what it's all about.

July 7, 2009, 10:39 AM	#7
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Well ... listen, these rules are not the type that can't be changed. If you guys want to allow some more leeway, there is no reason why we can't loosen up the rules some. This is supposed to be for fun. Understand that we were just trying to keep things even and fair. If the new two gun rule is hampering the contest, then we can ease up on it. I notice there is another with two Dan Wessons I have not deleted yet. How about this. I'll go back and undelete those entries that had two handguns in them ... if you guys want to open this up to distance shots of collections, I don't have a problem with it because it's a popularity contest: best photo wins. We can completely do away with a limit on the number of guns in a photo. That's up to you guys. But let's finish this July Contest with a limit of two, and we'll be liberal on that ... then I'll start a poll and try to get some opinions from you guys. Then in August we'll try to implement the results of the poll in August. There may be more than one poll to cover what you guys want to change. So chime in here and let's find out what you'd like to see polled for changes in the contest. As far as the entries that look like manufacturer's flyers, I have a problem with them because we would have to go to the manufacturers website and search to make sure it wasn't a copy. That's not fair either. I already did that once a few months back. [Edit: we can leave these in the contest if you guys, the competitors, will go out and research the legitimacy of the photo.] For those of you that had entries deleted, you may need to go back and reattach the photos. If the edit timer has timed out, just make another entry and I'll delete the first entry. It would help if you sent me a PM that you had to re-enter. Fair enough? Bud

July 7, 2009, 10:57 AM	#8
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Okay, I have restored Smokin_Gun's entry and JohnPaul's entry. One of these is a mfr's flyer type of entry ... up to you guys to prove it's not legit.

July 7, 2009, 11:13 AM	#10
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Since it is a photography contest rather than a "pretty gun" contest... Multiple guns doesn't bother me. So long as there is all the qualities of a nice photo. But the text shouldn't be allowed as it totally ruins the photo aspect like sneezed scrambled egg all over the image. Brent

July 7, 2009, 11:33 AM	#11
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Thanks for that, Doogle. hogdogs, I personally don't like the text overlay pics, ala mfr's flyer, but you know what(?) ... the voting will weed them out.

July 7, 2009, 12:20 PM	#13
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Okay, you guys go to the photo contest rules thread and look for bolding and strikeouts. There are changes to support this agreement we have. Any changes I should have made and missed ... PM me. Bud

July 7, 2009, 05:00 PM	#16
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	No problem, gentlemen. As long as we maintain a spirit of fairness and you guys police each other, the contest is foremost. I've never seen such beautiful pics.

July 8, 2009, 10:05 AM	#17
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Well, I'm having trouble building a poll. 'Can't seem to assemble the ideas to vote on, cause we've taken care of the one we had on the table, at least as far as I'm concerned. Why don't you guys just come to this thread and make suggestions? We can discuss ideas right here. Are any of the existing contest rules too restrictive? Do any of the rules need to be maybe modified?

July 9, 2009, 01:02 AM	#19
Freakdaddy Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2006 Posts: 442	I sense someone is about to be banned LOL!

July 9, 2009, 01:04 AM	#20
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	I would then need to appoint people to monitor and administrate these contests. That'll teach ya.

July 9, 2009, 05:45 AM	#21
Doogle Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2004 Posts: 399	I don't think there's too much to vote on...> ...after your amendments to the rules, Bud. You've addressed the main point that was raised. In the end, be it one gun or many, the photographer still needs to produce a good image. Thanks. Last edited by Doogle; July 9, 2009 at 05:46 AM. Reason: ..

July 9, 2009, 09:01 AM	#22
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Yes, I was thinking maybe it would be more responsive if we just brought our complaints here and if warranted, run a poll on that issue. In other words, deal with any perceived needed changes as they come along.

July 11, 2009, 10:13 PM	#23
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	So what is the rule regarding using PhotoShop or some other PC tool to manipulate an original photo? I've seen a number of "photos" that appear to me to have been edited with software. I'm not saying I'm against it but I'm saying that in past contests it would appear that some were not playing by "the rules" by either significant enhancements or by creating transparent backgrounds then applying a fake background. Again...not a complaint but it would seem that some people had their photos removed whereas others were allowed to stay. Or am I just smokin' something funny?

July 12, 2009, 04:29 AM	#24
Doogle Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2004 Posts: 399	All of my digital photos are processed via editing software...> ...and to similar ends as when I used film and paper techniques in a darkroom. Now I use a computer. Processing is part & parcel of the process for a photographer to create a final image. Processing may include adjustments to contrast, sharpness, colour correction, gamma, etc, or may include use of various filters and effects. This is photography, always has been. Taking the picture is only a beginning. The rules state : "One picture post (one entry) per member. One angle. One photo shot." I would expect that what you do with that one shot is up to you. Work within the rules and you should be OK. Last edited by Doogle; July 12, 2009 at 04:30 AM. Reason: ..

July 12, 2009, 04:44 AM	#25
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	I'm in agreement with Doogle. At any rate, there's no way we could enforce a rule like "No Photoshopping". It's ironic. I have a Canon A-1 in my closet. I have a FujiFilm 2400Z. Which one do you think I use? Yeah. I've taken the batteries out of the Canon for long term storage. When you start with a digital image and download it to your computer for printing or uploading here. The issue of manipulation is ... well, you start with size manipulation, and it goes from there. A simple dropdown menu, area selection, click of the button. Sometimes it is so subtle, you never know. A natural shot seems to be the goal, but antiquing, tinting, sepia effects ... I think we're already there in this monthly contest. Without the original file and the specific application used to make the changes, there's no way to investigate each photo and enforce it. Some of it is obvious and some not so much. This "new" approach and relaxation of the more-than-one-gun rule relies, without a doubt, on the vote to weed out the artificial. But then ... if that's what you all like it will stay. I look at past winners and I am encouraged at the obvious discerning taste and skills I see here each month. There are some outright professional quality entries here and I don't take it as accidental.

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