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Old December 20, 2002, 01:11 PM   #51
Master Blaster
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The Lord made Handguns and he gave us hands to use them with.

Praise the Lord and pass the Ammo.
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Old December 20, 2002, 02:52 PM   #52
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I'm an agnostic, but I was raised Country Lutheran. I seem to recall folks saying that "The LORD helps those who help themselves". That's all I need to know.
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Old December 21, 2002, 03:09 PM   #53
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From a Christian theological standpoint, the Christian himself is the temple of the Holy Spirit, not the building where Christians gather together. Therefore, if you have a theological problem with carrying in church, IMO you shouldn't be carrying at all.

bE
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Old May 23, 2004, 06:47 PM   #54
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Sirs:

We are bound by the KJV New Testament. No where in that blessed book does it say we are to let the innocent, ourselves included, be harmed.
I take my pepper spray and thumbstud lockblade with me to Church.
I will NOT allow some violence-crazed little Shazbond or Moonbeam
to desecrate the meeting house of the Lord.
When folks carried guns to Church, this country was a better place.
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Old May 23, 2004, 07:41 PM   #55
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I wear my seatbelt on the way to church, although I don't expect to be in an accident - I think it's obvious where I'm going with this thought...
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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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Old May 23, 2004, 09:03 PM   #56
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Two reasons to carry in church, one of which was already mentioned: Wedgewood Batist Church in Ft. Worth (which was in a "pre-9-11" America).

The second point can be found in my signature line. I quote Will Dougan, a pastor in Memphis.
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Old May 24, 2004, 06:16 PM   #57
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Of Course You Should Be Prepared To Defend Yourself In Church!!!

Gents,

TFL is not a Christian forum so I'll keep the discussion "practical". There is God's law and man's law. God's law commands us to protect our families. If we fail in this it is a bad thing. If man's law places me in a position where I have to disobey God's law, I will disobey man's law.

It is quite correct, both tactically and biblically to carry and be prepared to use weapons both in and out of church. Any pastor that does not agree with that should re-read his bible because he is wrong. Period.

Tactically speaking, we are at war with an entire culture bent on our destruction. What better target than a church service of unarmed america infidels. To the Church goer that says you should rely on God for protection and leave the gun at home, we answer that we do in fact rely on God...to make us alert, fast, and accurate. And even barring the Muslim terrorists, Churches attract all kinds. It has not been unheard of for distraught spouses, to come into a church and drag off their worshipping wives to be killed in the parking lot while the able-bodied men inside wring their hands in worry. God did not call us to be a bunch of impotent Mr. Rogers types!!

Biblically-speaking, it is not only correct to act against a man bringing evil, but it is mandatory. Christ meant the cheek-turning business for insults not physical attacks. Moreover, He specifically meant swords in Luke 22. Any other time that His men misunderstood Him, He corrected them. He did not correct them when they brought Him two swords. In fact He told them that if they didn't have a sword, they should sell what they had to make certain they had a sword.

If any of you want more biblical references that show it is correct for Christians to be armed, send me an email and I'll provide them for you. Also, I have an article on the Folly of Christian Pacifism on my site under newsletters. http://www.suarezinternational.com/pacifismstudy.html

A good part of my time these days is spent training and equipping church security teams, both scripturally AND physically.

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Old May 24, 2004, 07:16 PM   #58
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The law in GA says no CCW at public gatherings. Isn't church a public gathering?
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Old May 24, 2004, 07:31 PM   #59
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Okay, I will bite. I seem to recall we have been down this road before and not found a direct answer. Just where in the Bible are we encouraged to carry weapons inside of church? I am not at all against it and knowing the particular passage(s) would be beneficial for some heuristic arguments.

Actually, we are not at war with an entire culture bent on our destruction, but parts of several cultures that often include some bastardized Muslim beliefs as justification for their actions. The twisting of religion into justification for violence or war is far from a new concept and one that Christians have also been quite guilty of doing as well.

As for the Mr. Rogers and being impotent, I am not sure that is the case or a valid claim. First, he did sire two sons. Second, while he was never an advocate of violence, he directly his efforts to building one's personal spirit and self esteem based in Christian ideals. He managed to convey his teachings over more than 40 years most of which was with the nationally syndicated program. How many of us can claim such longevity with such a wide geographical influence? Mr. Rogers was all about getting along with one's neighbors, in other words, the people who are close by. His efforts were in building family and community unity. I don't recall him dealing much with issues such as geo-political turmoil.
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Old May 24, 2004, 09:46 PM   #60
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KY law

This may have changed but i think its still active. (paragraph 6)

CARRYING

It is unlawful to carry a concealed firearm on or about one`s person. This applies to carrying a concealed firearm in one`s own premises or dwelling.

Exempt from this prohibition are persons issued a license to carry concealed firearms, police officers, agents and messengers of express companies when on duty, and U.S. mail carriers on duty.

"Concealed on or about the person" has been recently defined as "concealment in such proximity to the person as to be convenient of access and within immediate physical reach." Kentucky courts consider firearms located under a driver`s seat concealed "on or about" the person, and are, therefore, unlawful. Firearms located in glove compartments, locked or unlocked, are not considered concealed.

The Department of State Police shall issue a license to carry concealed firearms if the applicant: is a state resident and has been a resident for 6 months or longer; is at least 21; is not ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to federal or state law; has not been committed to a state or federal facility for the abuse of a controlled substance or been convicted of a misdemeanor relating to controlled substances within 3 years; does not chronically and habitually use alcoholic beverages; demonstrates competence with a firearm, has not been adjudicated an incompetent or has waited 3 years from the date competency was restored; and has not been involuntarily committed to a mental institution unless he possesses a certificate from a psychiatrist stating that he has not suffered from disability for 3 years. The application shall be obtained from and submitted to the office of the sheriff in the county in which the applicant resides. The application fee is $60. The license is valid statewide for 5 years. The applicant shall submit a recent color photograph and a photocopy of a certificate of completion of a course that demonstrates competence with a firearm.

The Department of State Police shall, within 90 days, either issue a license or deny the application, in which case the applicant shall be informed in writing of the grounds for denial and his right to submit, within 30 days, documentation relating to the denial. The applicant shall also be informed of the right to seek review of the denial in the District Court of his place of residence.

A license to carry concealed firearms does not authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into any police station or sheriff`s office, any detention facility, prison, or jail, any courthouse, any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district, or any meeting of the General Assembly unless the permit holder is a member of that body, any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises, any elementary or secondary school facility, child caring facility, day care center, an area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property, any church or similar place of worship, or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

Kentucky will honor a valid license issued by another state if that state grants Kentucky residents the right to carry concealed firearms without a separate license. A person holding a valid license issued by another state, which state allows Kentucky residents to obtain a license, may apply for a Kentucky license.

It is lawful to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle.
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Old May 24, 2004, 10:00 PM   #61
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1). Just where in the Bible are we encouraged to carry weapons inside of church?

1 Timothy 5:8 - If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is wrse than an unbeliever.

That provision includes safety.

Luke 22:36 - He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".

Christ later affirmed this is exactly what He meant when two of His men returned with swords, and He declared, "That is enough".

There is nothing in Biblical study that would lead a Christian to believe he should disarm himself.

2). Actually, we are not at war with an entire culture bent on our destruction, but parts of several cultures that often include some bastardized Muslim beliefs as justification for their actions.

Well, we can all think what we choose. I have opinions based on intel I receive from sources in the Middle East and that is what I believe.

3). As for the Mr. Rogers and being impotent, I am not sure that is the case or a valid claim..........

Mr. Rogers was used not as THE Mr. Rogers, but as the icon he became and which has become the stereo-type of the nice guy. I could just as easily said Casper Milktoast, or whoever. The point was and is that there is more to being a Christian than being a nice guy and smiling and getting along with everyone. Sometimes doing the right thing means NOT smiling, but frowning, and NOT going along.

I apologize for getting evangelical here. It wasn't my intention. There is another place where this sort of thing is discussed routinely by men who carry weapons to worship daily, and by pastors who do the same with biblical support. Any interested in getting references for this, send me an email.

For now, just remember how silly you will feel if you leave your blaster in the car (to please a misled Pastor) the day an active shooter decides to pick your service as his statement.

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Old May 25, 2004, 07:42 AM   #62
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This is a very interesting thread. Both positions are well argued. My own decision: I see no problem with going armed, whether it be in church or in my own home. SC law has two interesting provisions:

1) CWP holders can only carry in church if they have the church leader's permission. Several months ago, one of our members was in the midst of some domestic upheaval. Her estranged husband (neither a member nor a previous visitor) drove into the parking lot and announced his intention of "speaking" with his wife (who had expressed a desire to avoid any such confrontation, and was NOT coming out to speak with him). Upon being advised of this, the husband made some threatening comments. A deacon apprised the pastor, and also noted that one of the members had a sidearm in his vehicle, had gone to retrieve it, and would stand watch outside. The pastor replied with a heartfelt "Thank God!" The pastor has since made a point of knowing who among his flock is ready and equipped to stave off violence aimed at his congregation.

2) A very old law (I don't think it was ever repealed) actually required churchgoing men to bring their rifles with them! In the good ol' days, a Southern Baptist church was not a place to stir up trouble!
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Old May 25, 2004, 01:11 PM   #63
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Quote:
1 Timothy 5:8 - If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is wrse than an unbeliever.

That provision includes safety.

Luke 22:36 - He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".

Christ later affirmed this is exactly what He meant when two of His men returned with swords, and He declared, "That is enough".

There is nothing in Biblical study that would lead a Christian to believe he should disarm himself.
With all due respect neither of those passages is as cut and dried as you say. For instance there is plenty of room for debate about whether "that is enough" is an affirmation of what they were doing or an exclamation that they didn't understand what he was saying.

Likewise the Timothy passage is set specifically in the context of Paul's monetary ministry to widows and orphans via the church "widow's list" that gives them physical provision with food and money.

As for a Biblical basis for carrying in defense of the church, read the old testament accounts of what was kept in the temple. It includes shields and weapons for the temple's defense. They are there for a reason.

Honestly I can go either way. If carrying a firearm has become a spiritual stumbling block to you in the development of your relationship with God then you are sinning. Repent. On the other hand if you feel God has called you to carry in order to protect yourself and his children, then by all means carry. If you do not you are sinning as well.

The will of the Lord is situational. In one case he may wish you to do something one way, in another similar situation he may wish the opposite. Pray and consult him to discover what his will for you is in this case. It is permissable to carry in a church provided the it is in keeping with the laws etc, but it still may not be right and the will of God.
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Old May 25, 2004, 05:31 PM   #64
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Hhmmm. Well said, well said...
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If carrying a firearm has become a spiritual stumbling block to you in the development of your relationship with God then you are sinning. Repent. On the other hand if you feel God has called you to carry in order to protect yourself and his children, then by all means carry. If you do not you are sinning as well.
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Old May 25, 2004, 08:05 PM   #65
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Arkansas' CCW states the it is unlawful to carry in a "church or other place of worship". No carry in church here...
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Old May 25, 2004, 08:22 PM   #66
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no reason i can think of not to......
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Old May 25, 2004, 09:37 PM   #67
Gabe Suarez
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Gents,

This is one of those threads where we are going to disagree about alot of things.

One of the points of disagreement is the idea that Christians must unconditionally submit to the law. I don't believe this is bliblical. The law says you can't carry a gun in church. Ok, what will you do when the church is targeted by evil men. How will you feel when you cannot defend the family because you left the gun at home?

Let's take it farther...What if the law told you that you could not go to church any more, or told you that your kids must be indoctrinated in other more mainstream religions? You going to obey??

Were Joseph and Mary sinning when they disobeyed Herod and escaped to Egypt? Was Rahab condemned when she disobeyed her king? Were the founding fathers sinning when they failed to obey King George? What should a Christian have done in WW2 Germany? Obey? There comes a time when the law of man is not in accord with the law of God. At this time the Christian is no longer bound to obey. Eventually you must choose who you serve.

Two, when Christ told His men, that is enough, He clearly meant that two swords were enough. He was not correcting them. If He was correcting them, He would have said He meant something else. An example is when He tells them to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. His men began asking about why they should beware of the bread of the Pharisees. He quickly corrected them by expalining that He meant the doctrine of the Pharisees, not the figurative leaven. Yet when His men brought swords, He didn't correct them.

Third, I don't see how carrying a gun or a knife, or wearing a seat belt, or locking your doors at night, or saving money, or anything of the sort can in any way interfere with your walk. Perhaps I'm being overly simplistic about this. I think the passages ARE very clear and specific if we read them literally.

Finally the issue of provision in Timothy. Are you saying that financial provision excuses us from the other things we must provide? We must provide food, shelter, spiritual guidance, safety, etc. None of these things are left in the hands of others, but in our own hands.

There are Christians who are bothered by the idea of personal combat and think we should all be pacifists. There is nothing in the bible to agree with that. Some Christians are against gun ownership. Again there is nothing in the bible about that either, but rather to the contrary (Luke 22). What about killing? Is killing a sin? Or is murder the act that God condemns? You see the scriptures are clear if you read them. In the end, it looks like we are going to disagree on these points, as you will not convince me nor I you.

God Bless,

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Old May 25, 2004, 09:43 PM   #68
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Gabe,
Well, I was hopeful that you would actually have some specific references to weapons in church. As I noted above, such a topic had been covered previously and nobody seemed to actually have a church reference. What you have quoted are generalized statements that have no direct church references. They neither substantiate or refute the interpretation you made that, "There is nothing in Biblical study that would lead a Christian to believe he should disarm himself." The Timothy verse is a great King James New Testament Biblical reference for weapons in the home and protection of the family, but has no explicit church reference. Jesus is quoted for saying a lot of things that are generalized references which would no doubt never be applicable in church. Also as I recall, the reference to the term of 'household' is a loosely based translation, not direct, and has 3 or 4 other possible interpretations that all basically cover the same gist, unless looked at specifically, and are inclusive of meaning "home" (which may or may not have broader interpretations of home land), abode in which one resides or is currently residing (with or without the household actually being the property of the person being addressed - in other words, a guest in a home becomes part of that 'household' while present and potentially could expect to be protected by the head of household or aid in the protection of those within the household. This is a contextual interpretation. Also, the 'household' can be expanded to where a family currently is located as a group even if they are not actually in their own physical home structure).

It has been too many years for me to dredge up the various plays on language that came as a result of the King James translation and subsequent language updates that were geared at keeping text and meanings in a more commonly understood vernacular. One of the more commonly discussed interpretive translations that has been called into question is the notion that God created Eve from Adam's rib Some folks actually believe men have one less rib than women because of this translation. It is bizarre reasoning as genetically, the removal of a rib or other body part does not pass on to offspring. Anyway, the term is more correctly noted as 'side.' In other words, Eve was created from Adam's side. "Rib" is an overly specific mistranslation.

Few folks have the knowledge base and language skills to read earlier versions of the Bible in the original language. So here most of us are at the disadvantage of basing theological arguments on a secondary interpretation and translation, not primary. Notice I mentioned versions (see http://www.mtholyoke.edu/lits/librar...es/biblver.htm). The Catholic Church applied considerable influence in determining if the writings of various individuals remained in the Bible or were removed (see http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/...ttlebible.html). So the result is that our version of the word of God actually came down to what certain individuals determined to be proper for inclusion into the Bible. I would not doubt it possible that early books of the Bible that ended up not being included in the version most of us now read did actually make references to weapons in church.

As the argument made by you is based on interpretation and not any sort of explicit references to weapons in church, the notion a pastor is dead wrong for not allowing weapons in church is not supported and only carries comparable interpretive opinion that also is no explicitly stated. At least, that is, I have neither read or been shown a Biblical passage that explicitly stated that weapons were not to be brought into church.

MrAcheson brings up a neat set of points. First is the context of the passages which is very relevant. Passages taken out of context to substantiate events or situations beyond the original context is an invalid form of argument. What HE (MrAcheson, not God) did point out that is very interesting is the references to the Old Testament. I am not terribly familiar with that book and his suggested examples seem promising.

As for the misunderstanding of the Mr. Rogers comment, who was to know you didn't actually mean THE Mr. Rogers? I figured you must have meant THE Mr. Rogers given your condemnation of pacifistic religous leaders. Mr. Rogers was a Presbyterian minister and to my knowledge, guided most of his teachings benevolent behaviors of people to those around them and was not associated with any sort of more aggressive views. He would just about be a perfect poster child as a pacifistic Christian leader. I take it that you were not familiar that he was a minister or you might have otherwise picked a better namesake that would be a more appropriate generalized good guy not associated with in specific church contexts.

In support of your argument for there being Biblical justification for carrying in church, I have met one minister (and heard of a couple others about which I don't have direct knowledge) who obtained his CCW and who did carry in church. His argument was quite good. In the situational context of the church shooting in Ft. Worth mentioned by geegee, the minister I met felt is was his responsibility to look after his flock during services. Given that nearly everyone in the church during services is only looking foward to the minister, the minister is the only one who has line of sight views to the doors through which bad people may decide to enter during services. Moreover, he had a particularly good view and tactical advantage because the pulpit was considerably higher than ground level. So in reference to the Timothy passage, the congregation effectively constitutes members of the house(hold) of God and he is charged with that household being his as the representative of God.
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Old May 26, 2004, 12:58 AM   #69
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A couple quick points:

1) There is not enough room in the Bible to tell us everything we are supposed to, or allowed to do, in detail. That is why often it focuses on what we are NOT to do. Therefore, it is a rather futile "Straw Man" to try to find a place in teh Bible that specifically tells us to carry a weapon in church, while ignoring the many scriptures that imply it as well as the lacking of scriptures that say that it is wrong.

2) Jesus himself carried a weapon into church. And he also kicked some ass with it. Remember the merchants selling stuff in the temple? Jesus got so furious he took a whip in there and tore the place up. You can imagine he was a scary sight to behold if an entire bazaar full of people fled from him, and merchants stood back as he destroyed their tables.

3) One thing to focus on is what Jesus or the Bible does NOT say. The Bible does not support weapons-control or anti-weapon, in fact it very often promotes the use of weapons for good.

4) Further, Jesus did not scorn Peter for having a sword, or even for using it. Jesus told Peter that "this is not the time to resist". That is a big distinction to understand. If Jesus were so anti-weapon he would have told the disciples not to even have a sword, and he certainly would not have encouraged them to go get them.

There is only one useful purpose for a sword. It is more of a "weapon" than even a gun, because at least a gun can be used to hunt. Swords are only truly effective at one thing: killing men.

That night, Jesus was holding a prayer vigil like nothing we have ever seen. That was about as holy a moment as we would ever witness. And yet he did not tell anyone to leave their sword at home.
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Old May 26, 2004, 01:50 PM   #70
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Quote:
One of the points of disagreement is the idea that Christians must unconditionally submit to the law. I don't believe this is bliblical. The law says you can't carry a gun in church. Ok, what will you do when the church is targeted by evil men. How will you feel when you cannot defend the family because you left the gun at home?
Christians are not ordered to unconditionally submit to the law. God placed those who make the law in authority over us. We are ordered to submit unless those authorities order us to do something contrary to the will of God. All the examples I can think of this have to do with worship, forced idolatry, or death sentences. There are a few that are political like Rahab, but those are a case of following Gods direct orders for Israel inhabit the holy land. There is a dividing line, but I think you are putting it too far out with weapons laws or even self-defense. Unless God has literally told you to carry, then its definitely up for grabs.
Quote:
I don't see how carrying a gun or a knife, or wearing a seat belt, or locking your doors at night, or saving money, or anything of the sort can in any way interfere with your walk.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart not on your own understanding." The Bible is pretty clear that we are first and foremost called to trust in and obey God. Perhaps that will involve giving away your savings to the poor or leaving a firearm at home. In the end we are always commanded to trust the Lord and his provision not upon ourselves or our own strength. If your firearm gets in the way of that trust then you need to seriously consider going without it for a while. Anything can be idolatry.
Quote:
Are you saying that financial provision excuses us from the other things we must provide?
No but it does not imply it either. You aren't reading the passage strictly or literally. There is wiggle room you are using which is fine by me since I'm not against carry in the slightest. There are definitely biblical passages which support self-defense. Ehud is commended for assassinating an obese Philistine ruler by stabbing him in the guts while on the toilet. I'm just warning against "I have a hammer so everything becomes a nail" mentality. In the end there are more important things than even your life. God has called people to lay their lives down so that he could work through their deaths. Be mindful of these things.

As for the defense of the temple, check where Solomon sets up the temple for the gold shields. Later these are replaced with more practical bronze ones after Shishak sacks Jerusalem. The shields and spears are used to defend the Temple when Joash is proclaimed King of Judah against Athaliah wishes (2 Kings 11, 2 Chronicles 39). 1 Kings 14 mentions temple guards (probably a job for Levites) and a temple guardroom as well.
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Old May 26, 2004, 10:14 PM   #71
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Ok, and after all that, I still think its our duty as described in the Bible to protect those around us. In this day an age, the word "sword" would be replaced with pistol. If its acceptable for me to protect my family and those around me in the home and on the street - what changes in Church?

The Word has been translated many times, but there are study guides and computer programs that allow you to research the words in their original language. I urge you all to do that rather than accept what someone else told you. We all read the Word and interpret it through our knowledge, and spiritual inspiration.

Bottom line - I find no conflict at all with being armed at church, and strongly disagree with anyone who feels differently.

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Old May 27, 2004, 03:59 AM   #72
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I carry in church , my Pastor knows this and is comfortable with it. last Christmas I found out that I was not the only one . Two other Deacons carried and one of the Deacons wife has a ccw also.
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Old May 27, 2004, 04:17 AM   #73
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In Georgia it's illegal. That said, I know a clergyman who carries during service. Theoretically, since it's his place of business, it's allowed. His rationale is that, in the Middle East, terrorists seem to gravitate toward Christian and Jewish holy sites as targets, and he sees it as his responsibility to protect his flock.

I've mulled over this, and I'm not sure if I'd feel comfortable doing so, even if it were legal.
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Old May 27, 2004, 07:44 AM   #74
Diggler
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Join Date: May 17, 2004
Posts: 16
Why should you act any differently outside of church than inside of church? You're not supposed to live by one set of rules for 45 minutes on Sunday then by another set of rules for the rest of the week. Disregarding the laws of the state (keep them separate, remember?), if you feel that you are justified in carrying a weapon day to day in your life you should also be comfortable with bringing it into the church. If you don't feel it's right to have it in church, then maybe deep down inside you don't think it's moral for you to carry the weapon daily. If you're doing something in your life that you wouldn't do in church, then it's probably something you shouldn't be doing at all. Something to think about.

I see nothing wrong with carrying in church.
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Old May 27, 2004, 09:35 AM   #75
.45 Vet
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Join Date: May 21, 2004
Location: Western Penn.
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While I personally see nothing wrong with CCW in a house of worship, being a retired vet, and having participated in a few military weddings, and funerals; consider this. The most recent volume of U.S.Army Drill and Cerimonies that I've seen,(2001), states that no ARMS, (to include swords/sabers), are to be carried into the church/chappel by members of the honor guard detail.

I don't really believe that the Lord minds, I speculate that it's cause for too much possible clang and clatter in the confined space that might detract from a profesional looking presentation.

Just some additional food for thought...
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