|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
February 18, 2018, 01:56 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: December 23, 2017
Location: Yankeedom
Posts: 29
|
C&R license investigation
I understand that C&R license holders who are NOT dealers are occasionally investigated by the ATF, if they are selling their C&R inventory or just firearms in general.
I'd like to get my C&R license, but I also follow the golden rule: Never sell or trade anything! Does that mean I am safe from sales investigations or are they routine and happen to license holders arbitrarily? |
February 18, 2018, 03:51 PM | #2 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
An 03FFL "Collector of Curios & Relics" is a license for collecting certain firearms and absolutely not for engaging in the business of dealing in firearms. An 03FFL who engages in "flipping" guns too often (even C&R eligible) may be found to be in violation. A compliance inspection on the other hand is something you agree to allow when you apply for your C&R. It means ATF can review your recordkeeping. Keeping a record of your acquisitions and dispositions is a requirement under Federal law. Quote:
Quote:
Federal law prohibits ATF from conducting an inspection more than once per year.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
|||
February 18, 2018, 06:21 PM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 5,313
|
Quote:
|
|
February 18, 2018, 06:26 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 23, 1999
Location: PA. USA
Posts: 1,869
|
I have had a C&R License for a lot of years now and have never been bothered by the ATF.
Anytime I have ever had a question or issue they have always helpful with whatever I wanted to know. What kind of annoys me know unless they stopped it I use to get a quarterly newsletter from them. I haven’t used mine in a long time but I kept the license for when I travel. |
February 19, 2018, 10:45 PM | #5 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
In both instances they contacted me prior to the compliance inspection. That's not unusual for home based dealers.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
|
February 21, 2018, 11:18 AM | #6 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
I had a C&R and tied to talk to quite a few people in regard to this issue. I found one 03FFL who had been audited. He collected a specific type of relatively inexpensive semi-auto surplus handgun and on several occasions bought multiple guns at one time from 01FFLs. I forget how many, but it was not two or three. More like ten. I suspect the 01FFL sent something to the ATFE with concerns about his purchasing pattern. He said the ATFE was pretty lax about the inspection. A quick look at his book, talking with him, etc. Basically when he started talking about all the markings on the pistols and knew them inside and out they really didn't seem concerned.
I bought a number of Nagant pistols back when they were $75, so I was worried about it. I also have been in a slow period of collection every time my license comes up for renewal. I seem to be interested in collecting for about a year at a time then not interested for three or four years. It ends up expiring and I don't get a new one until I get interested again. As a result I have no records for my first two license periods that could be audited. |
February 21, 2018, 12:37 PM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak Last edited by carguychris; February 21, 2018 at 04:09 PM. Reason: reword |
|
February 21, 2018, 06:58 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: December 23, 2017
Location: Yankeedom
Posts: 29
|
Sorry all, I meant "INSPECTED" not "INVESTIGATED". I didn't know if the inspections were more like "harassments" and/or how frequently they happen.
|
February 21, 2018, 11:52 PM | #9 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
The pistols were ordered from a surplus distributor if I remember correctly.
|
February 22, 2018, 06:37 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 5,313
|
Thanks for the info Dogtown Tom. You answered my question very well. I had always wondered what the inspectors would do for part time folk that don't keep 9 to 5 hours. Thanks.
|
February 25, 2018, 04:56 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2014
Posts: 163
|
I have never been inspected. When one applies for renewal of the license, I believe the ATF looks at the entry of "number of guns purchased and number of guns sold." Mine always says sold=ZERO. If I were the ATF, I'd audit if you sold more than 2 guns a year.
__________________
Keep your guns clean.... the kids may put them in their mouths! |
February 26, 2018, 12:02 AM | #12 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,470
|
Quote:
An 03 is a personal, not business, license, so regular hours don't apply. |
|
February 26, 2018, 04:48 PM | #13 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
I believe the rule for a 03 FFL is ATFE must give a minimum of 24 hours notice before requiring inspection. A quick google search turned up a couple of claims about compliance inspection officers showing up at a residence, offering to meet at their office later and sort of playing the 'it would simply if you just let me in to your house to do the inspection now' card.
Google search inspections. There are plenty of posts by people claiming to have gone through them. |
February 26, 2018, 06:42 PM | #14 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
Quote:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...8_123&rgn=div8 Quote:
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
|||
February 26, 2018, 10:45 PM | #15 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
(a)"upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry"
(b)"may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer" (collector is not mentioned in (b) (c)"may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector" What are a collectors hours of operation? I can't remember filing any hours with them on my 03 applications. Maybe I did and don't remember. Maybe it is something new. I didn't say law, I said rule. ATFE uses a lot more than federal law to make decisions. I bet their policy manuals are several NYC phone books. If you can find a 03 FFL willing to indicate ATFE showed up without a warrant at their licensed location and forced their way in without giving notice or offering to do it later, than I would love to hear it. In all claims I have ever seen ATFE gave notice which indicates to me it is their established policy to do so. A policy being a rule established by management for the peons to follow. |
February 27, 2018, 11:40 AM | #16 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
Paragraph (b) deals with compliance inspection of licensees who are NOT collectors. It's the regulation that requires the licensee to make his records available for inspection. It is not a criminal investigation. Paragraph (c) deals with collectors. Refusal to allow inspection of your records is grounds for revocation of a collectors 03FFL. The collector can either allow ATF entry into their premises or meet at the local ATF office. Quote:
Quote:
And again, there is not (and never has been) a rule requiring "a minimum 24 hour notice". Quote:
Quote:
I've been posting citations to ATF regulations for almost ten years on this website. I know you've seen those posts...........but did you bother to read them? Did you bother to visit ATF.gov and read anything there? Why not? You can't engage in debate when your research is based on feelings and gossip. Quote:
One more time: Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE Last edited by dogtown tom; February 27, 2018 at 03:09 PM. |
||||||||
February 28, 2018, 12:13 AM | #17 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
I know the first two don't apply to 03, that is why I cut out everything except the part that shows it does not apply.
03 FFLs do not have hours of operations like 01 FFLs. One does not need to list any hours on the application. ATFE CAN'T just show up during the 'hours of operation' because there are not any. They have to arrange a meeting. Federal law isn't comprehensive. They come up with policies that fill in the gaps. There is nothing about a policy of 24 hour notice that would contradict federal law. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; February 28, 2018 at 12:25 AM. |
February 28, 2018, 12:41 AM | #18 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
Quote:
ALL applicants must answer Que 12 on the Application for a Federal Firearms License:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...31016/download Note Question 12: 12. Hours of Operation and/or Availability of Business/Activity (please provide at least one hour in which you can be contacted by ATF personnel) That question applies to every applicant. "Collecting" is an "activity" is it not? Quote:
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
|||
February 28, 2018, 11:14 AM | #19 | ||
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
Quote:
(b) Quote:
(c) There used to be a box that one could check saying you were a C&R and skip the hours of operations/activity question. They re-did the form and removed that box. The form before that had small print indicating it was not necessary. The forms also aren't designed by federal law. People are leaving the box empty, writing N/A, etc., and getting approved. I've also discussed this issue with people I know when the change was made, but I can't cite those conversations. Is it your opinion ATFE is attempting to mandate all collectors perform weekly cleaning of their collections during a certain hour and if an ATFE officer shows up to check the books during that hour one could lose their license? I know a 03 FFL who winters in Florida. He certainly isn't going to be available if they come knocking at his northern house at whatever hour during January. |
||
February 28, 2018, 12:45 PM | #20 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
Quote:
The "right to entry" covers two things: 1. If ATF believes that the licensee has committed a crime, they need a search warrant signed by a judge. 2. If ATF wants to perform a compliance inspection they don't need a warrant. Quote:
While I get it that you want to poke holes in my argument, you're going to need to do a better job than what you've shown so far. Quote:
Gas used to be 33cents a gallon too. Quote:
When the applicant sign the form this text is right above their signature: "21. Certification: Under the penalties imposed by 18 U.S.C. 924, I declare that I have examined this application in its entirety and the documents submitted in support thereof and to the best of my knowledge and belief, they are true, correct, and complete......" In short, fail to answer a Federal form honestly and completely and you subject yourself to fines and or imprisonment. And if you don't think that possible read U.S. vs Abramski. Quote:
Whether ATF does/does not enforce a regulation isn't germane, the regulation remains and IF ATF wanted they could reject any FFL application for such omissions. Quote:
If you have evidence that a collector can refuse ATF to perform a compliance inspection then post a citation to the regulation that allows that. You won't of course, because no such regulation or rule permits that...just like your "24 hour notice" rule doesn't exist. And what the heck does "cleaning" of a collection have to do with a compliance inspection? I'll answer...NOTHING. That's a pathetic attempt to obfuscate the discussion. AGAIN, you need to read the regulation and the Form 7. What you learn from gossip isn't Federal law or ATF regulation. The purpose of Question 12 on the Form 7 is to show when "...you can be contacted by ATF personnel...". If you don't put down at least one hour you can expect a knock on the door at any hour. Quote:
ATF understands that a business or a collector IS NOT BOUND TO KEEP THEIR HOURS as detailed on the Form 7.....but they do want to know a convenient time to contact you. If you don't put down a time or day then they'll show up when they feel like it. If your snowbird collector friend ignores ATF requests for a compliance inspection then he has no one to blame but himself when he loses his license. ATF is more than willing to work with any licensee, as I noted above ATF called me and let me set up a time and day for both of my inspections. The second inspection occurred three weeks after ATF called to see if I would be available the next day. I wasn't. So the IOI and I scheduled a mutually agreeable day and time. Did the IOI have to agree with my schedule? No.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
||||||||||
March 1, 2018, 12:04 AM | #21 | |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
Quote:
ATFE could change their policy/procedure to a stricter following of federal law. They might be able to reject applications in which the hours are left blank. It doesn't change the fact that they are not currently. I don't think you have an argument. There is nothing in it for me to convince you. You are an anonymous person on the internet. I feel content in my position as presented to any third party who reads this thread. |
|
March 1, 2018, 12:26 PM | #22 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
Quote:
ATF has regulations and Federal law to follow. If an individual IOI doesn't follow those regulations that's a problem his supervisor needs to address. But it doesn't change what the regulation actually says does it? Quote:
Quote:
But the requirement remains that a licensee make his records available for inspection to ATF on request. Quote:
How often do you talk to ATF? Have you ever met an ATF IOI in person? Is your entire knowledge of ATF licensing based on gossip? Since you referred to them as an "agent" above I don't think you have any clue as to what I mean by "IOI".......because they sure as heck aren't an agent. Quote:
You posted false information and got caught. It hurts, but you'll survive to post nonsense again I'm sure. Quote:
Any third party who reads this thread hopefully has the reading comprehension to see that while you may be content, you are most certainly ignorant of Federal firearms law.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
||||||||
March 1, 2018, 03:55 PM | #23 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stuart, VA
Posts: 2,473
|
Quote:
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither. |
|
March 3, 2018, 10:46 PM | #24 | |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
Quote:
Actually, I have spoken to an ATFE officer on this issue. Right in the middle of one of my license periods I needed to leave the US on short notice, was not certain what my communication capabilities would be, would not be able to return to US within any sort of reasonable time-frame(such as the snowbird can if necessary), etc. I was able to have a very cordial conversation with a very professional employee of the ATFE and work out what was necessary. I have no idea if they were an agent or not. I referred to them as agent and they did not correct me. For myself and most 03 FFLs the distinction is entirely irrelevant and is simply used to convey respect for their position. I will note for any considering a 03 FFL, I offered to send my log and was told they had no interest and to dispose of it. The experience significantly changed my feelings towards ATFE. The 'Agent' I spoke with could not have been more supportive or helpful. If I was applying for a C&R tomorrow I would mark the hours box "N/A" and not think twice about it. |
|
March 4, 2018, 03:41 PM | #25 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,090
|
Quote:
See anything about ATF "....demanding to be shown the C&R log immediately or having the person immediately go to the local ATFE office with the books"? No, you don't. What is stated in Federal law and ATF regulations is clear. (unless you don't bother reading it). Whether a ATF IOI makes it a practice to call ahead is only that......a practice and not at all prohibited by any ATF regulation. Again, your assertion that "...ATFE must give a minimum of 24 hours notice before requiring inspection" is 100% horsehockey, absolutely false and without any shred of truth whatsoever. You claimed it a "rule" yet cannot post a source or citation. What IS TRUE is the citations to ATF regulations that I posted. You have only posted gossip, rumor and unfounded dreams. You are like the guy who says "police officers will never write you a speeding ticket for driving 5mph over the posted limit". While that may be his experience it most certainly isn't the law. The likelihood of getting pulled over driving 80mph in a 75mph zone is far different than driving 23mph in a school zone posted 20mph when kids are walking home from school. And it may be the same officer exercising his discretion. Quote:
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
||
|
|