Mini-14 or M1 Carbine for home defense

[chaim]

Anyway, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post. I'm not looking for a rifle for HD in isolation. It will be part of a HD system, so to speak. The first gun in my hand will be a handgun. With a typical self defense scenario (they run when they see the gun, or if I have to stop an attack, they stop after they are hit since they don't want to die), it will be over then and there. The job of the handgun, if it doesn't stop things just from being presented, is to get me to a long gun (something more capable). I'm not a big shotgun fan for a number of reasons, so it will be a rifle or carbine. If I'm going for the long gun, my handgun wasn't enough (very dedicated attacker, or multiple attackers), so I want a long gun with some real capability to handle such an escalated situation. Still, I want to retire my AR from these duties because I also want to consider a likely legal situation and go with something more PC looking that won't have prosecutors foaming at the mouth or scaring non-gun aware jurors (this is MD so it may not matter how good a shoot it is, criminal charges won't be unlikely, and a civil trial will be very likely).

Hopefully, that helps people understand my thinking (or, since it is 2:20am and I have a cold, maybe it was more confusing than what I said before).

[rickyrick]

Honestly, it is very unlikely that you will ever need a handgun for self defense; and even rarer that you will need a rifle.
My suggestion is get the one you like the most, the rifle that you will enjoy shooting the most. If you enjoy the rifle, you will practice with it the most. Practice leads to proficiency.
I’m proficient with AR15s due to the similarities with M4/M16 and 15 years in the army. I own a few. I just like Mini14s better... well at least mine. I know my Mini14 and magazines are reliable, incredibly reliable. It’s comfortable and I’ve spent years shooting it, daily for long stretches. It’s as accurate as any of my ARs. Clocked countless hours killing feral pigs, coyotes, raccoons and random other nuisance animals.

You have never expressed being limited by a budget, especially since you are considering a Mini14 or M1 carbine. If you want an M1 carbine then I say get the best one you can find and don’t look back. After this thread, I definitely have some interest in them
At risk of getting flamed again...If you want a decent Mini14, well, they aren’t hard to come by. I’ve had good Mini14 experiences, I can’t be alone. These pages are full of people that have AR15 issues, (accuracy included) but ARs will always pop up in Mini14 threads.

Let us know what you get, I think an M1 carbine would be pretty cool just for the coolness of it, especially if you could snag an original.

Mini14s will still be readily available next time you get the itch to purchase a rifle.

Edit to add:
I wouldn’t be a proper troll if I didn’t point out that no one has produced the $500-Mini14-reliability-equivalent, brand new m1 carbine that can be purchased today at a retail gun outlet. I mean, I’ve given over $500 in charity in the last couple of weeks. I’ve got extra

[agtman]

Anyway, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post.

Dude, after 5 pages of heart-felt responses by your fellow TFL-ers - and just as many pages to clear up your own confusion - that admission is sort of a non-starter right there, dontcha think?

I'm not looking for a rifle for HD in isolation. It will be part of a HD system, so to speak. The first gun in my hand will be a handgun. With a typical self defense scenario (they run when they see the gun, or if I have to stop an attack, they stop after they are hit since they don't want to die), it will be over then and there.

The best weapons-'system' that fits that bill is a suppressed 5.56 AR with a small Surefire or Inforce APL light attached on the rail, along with something like a 15+1 Glock 19 on your hip ... But then there's that Maryland thang again.

I do get that you want to 'retire' your AR from 'home-defense service' for political-appearance reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that you're now moving from using the most-effective HD tool to a lesser one, apparently based solely on the politics of weapons-cosmetics.

The job of the handgun, if it doesn't stop things just from being presented, is to get me to a long gun (something more capable).

So saidth the late Col. Cooper, quite frequently, and such is currently echoed much and loudly by Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch.

I'm not a big shotgun fan for a number of reasons, so it will be a rifle or carbine.

Me either, but then I don't live in Maryland, so the rules of a non-Free State severely impact and thus limit your choices ... I suppose moving is out of the question?

If I'm going for the long gun, my handgun wasn't enough (very dedicated attacker, or multiple attackers), so I want a long gun with some real capability to handle such an escalated situation. Still, I want to retire my AR from these duties because I also want to consider a likely legal situation and go with something more PC looking that won't have prosecutors foaming at the mouth or scaring non-gun aware jurors (this is MD so it may not matter how good a shoot it is, criminal charges won't be unlikely, and a civil trial will be very likely).

Uh huh.

Let's see, ... if the act of self-defense inside your home with a politically incorrect weapon is now a crime in Maryland, or even if you're never charged it might still guarantee personal civil liability to the point of financial ruin, the option of moving would sure be pushing its way to the top of my list.

Hopefully, that helps people understand my thinking (or, since it is 2:20am and I have a cold, maybe it was more confusing than what I said before).

More like semi-crystal clear. Tylenol might be helpful. Hope you feel better tomorrow. Hard to think clearly when it's late at night and you're up sick.

Take care and good luck.

[stagpanther]

Honestly, it is very unlikely that you will ever need a handgun for self defense; and even rarer that you will need a rifle.

Depends where you live or travel I would say. I've lived in inner city areas that were effectively gang-contested war zones. NOT having a handgun I felt was almost foolish.

[chaim]

Honestly, it is very unlikely that you will ever need a handgun for self defense; and even rarer that you will need a rifle.
My suggestion is get the one you like the most, the rifle that you will enjoy shooting the most. If you enjoy the rifle, you will practice with it the most. Practice leads to proficiency.

No doubt. From fun factor only, I think I'd rank them: lever rifle, M1 Carbine, Mini-14, bolt rifles (and I've pretty much ruled out those I was leaning towards because: the Ruger Scout is as expensive as all the other options and has no advantage over a lever or semi, and like 44 AMP said, once you hang a 20 round AR mag from the thing, MD and other anti-gun areas are likely to see it as a "Rambo want to be" weapon just like an AR). I think the Carbine and Mini will be close, but the Carbine wins for me because of its even more handy nature and its historical connections.

I’m proficient with AR15s due to the similarities with M4/M16 and 15 years in the army

I didn't do 15 years, but it was the Army that taught me to shoot. I do shoot an AR well, though I don't particularly like my AR much. For a defensive rifle I prefer military style peep sights, which the Mini and M1 Carbine have. I've shot a lot since the Army and my favorite rifle (and thus the one I shoot the most, and with all that practice, the best) is my 30-30 Win 94, so I'd be fine with one of the levers too (and I may put one of the many peep sights/ghost ring sights options on the lever rifle).

You have never expressed being limited by a budget, especially since you are considering a Mini14 or M1 carbine.

Limited in that I can't get two or three of my options right now (what I'd like to do since I am having so much trouble deciding), but all are relatively acceptably, and similarly, priced so it isn't a major deciding factor. At Buds (for regional standardization), the AO Carbine is currently $793 by credit card or $770 cash, the Mini is $749 cash or $771 with credit card, with the lever rifles being both the cheap option at $600/618 for the Marlin 1894 and the expensive option at $999/1028 for the Uberti 1866). I am leaning against the Uberti if I go with the lever due to cost (though it is probably the best looking option and the one I'd most like to own otherwise).

The best weapons-'system' that fits that bill is a suppressed 5.56 AR with a small Surefire or Inforce APL light attached on the rail, along with something like a 15+1 Glock 19 on your hip

I agree on the rifle based only on capability (which should be, but often isn't, the only factor). For me, and for home defense, I prefer .45ACP over 9mm (usually less overpenetration and slightly easier on the hearing). My usual choices for handgun are my .45ACP SIG P250 Compact or a 1911, with me occasionally ignoring my .45 preference for home defense and going with my CZ 75B. I shoot my CZs and 1911s better than any other handgun, and that trumps nearly everything else.

Me either, but then I don't live in Maryland, so the rules of a non-Free State severely impact and thus limit your choices ... I suppose moving is out of the question?

That is complicated.

I was born and grew up in MD. All my friends live here (except for some who moved away who I only see once every year or two when they visit). I'm 48 so the idea of making a whole new group of friends isn't as easy as it would have been 20 years ago. More importantly, my parents are here. They are getting older, they are in their mid-70s, mom has lived longer than all but one or two of her family, and dad has had heart problems. So I want to maximize the time I have left with them and don't want to move too far away.

There is also work. I'm a teacher. It is a state licensed profession. There are hoops to jump through (which can take a year or so) to move your job from one state to another. I got my original certification through an emergency certification (sometimes called provisional or conditional certification) which means I got a job and then got certified, and I used my teaching job as my student teaching, so some states won't take my certification (I can do the same thing there to get certified, but you get paid less than regular entry level salaries for the 2 years you are emergency certified, and I'm a mid-career professional with a masters degree, I can't afford to do that). I can also only apply for jobs once a year (generally school districts are looking for the next school year, and I'm under contract and can lose my certification if I leave mid-year without permission from my school district).

Because of my parents and friends, if I move, it needs to be nearby. I love the Northern VA area, but on a teacher's salary, and I'm single so there isn't a second full time income (I do teach evening school and summer school as well, but those are part-time or temp positions), there is no way I can buy something there.

All that said, I have been looking at homes in York PA (1-1.5hr commute each way) and parts of WV (1.5-2hr commute each way). I've also applied for teaching jobs in Northern VA a few times (a few NOVA school districts would see me get a $10-20K/yr pay bump which might put some of the cheaper parts of NOVA in my price range for housing), though since I don't have VA certification yet I haven't had any interviews. I plan to apply for my VA certification this year and I'll try again for a NOVA teaching job next year, and I may buy a place in one of the surrounding states the next summer (I was going to move to York this summer, but since I'm going to apply for NOVA jobs one more time, I'm postponing that since York-to-NOVA would be too far).

[2damnold4this]

What are the reasons you are using an AR as your home defense rifle over your Win 94? How would these factors apply to any new rifle you would buy?

[chaim]

What are the reasons you are using an AR as your home defense rifle over your Win 94? How would these factors apply to any new rifle you would buy?

The AR is .223/5.56 which isn't a bad HD round. Decent power, less overpenatration than most self defense calibers (including handgun calibers). The Win 94 is a 30-30. Much more overpenetration. It also is well under 10 rounds. When I had my .45LC Win 94, the plan was to use it for home defense, but it wasn't quite reliable enough.

Ranked for overpenetration, my preferences would be .223/5.55, .45LC, .30 Carbine/.357mag (tie). Ranked for how much I'd likely enjoy the gun (and thus practice with it): lever, M1 Carbine, Mini-14 (though I think they'd all be pretty close). Ranked for power, they all have decent power out of a long gun at self defense ranges so it is pretty much a tie. Ranked for versatility, it is probably a tie for all but the .30 Carbine, and since I don't hunt, they are all good for home defense and for fun. Ranked for capacity (since that is important in this purchase): Mini and M1 Carbine are more or less tied (though since I'd go with 20 round Mini and 15 round Carbine mags, the Mini has the slight advantage), the lever gun takes the rear. Thus, they all have something to put them over the others.

I think I may be leaning against the M1 Carbine over reliability. If I already had one that was reliable, great. A new one is more likely than the other choices to have trouble, and I'll probably have to wait 6mo to a year to get something in another category, so it would be better to get the M1 later as a fun gun after I have a HD gun. Of course, if I did go with the Carbine and mine wasn't reliable, I could continue using my AR HBAR for the time being until the problems got sorted out or I could pick up the lever gun or Mini later. I'm slightly leaning towards the lever rifle out of pure emotional "want" even though the Mini-14 is probably better overall for what I'm looking for in this purchase.

[cslinger]

I am going to say this from my own personal experience as far as what I have seen as far as home invasions in a major metro PD area.

1- The VAST number of them are crime on crime or because you were “rubbing another man’s rhubarb” so to speak.

2-The firearm involved is insignificant to HAVING ANY FIREARM available to “repel boarders”. Most folks seem to remember leaving the iron on, or the garage door open or any number of other things they have to attend to RIGHT NOW vs getting shot at.

3-Having a rifle of any kind even a .357 lever is way up on the power threshold but way down on the availability threshold. See number 2. It’s way easier to keep a handgun or three safely stashed around then a rifle or rifles.

4-12 gauge 00 buck is DEVASTATING at close range and seems to be the most common fight stopper in this area. (I know you said no shotguns just pointing it out)

5-If this is simply an “Iwannanewgun!!!” Excercise.......and lets be honest we’ve all been there more times than I can count then just pick the one you will shoot and have the most fun with. ANY of what you put forth would do just fine for HD as long as you do your part and Lady Luck and Mr. Murphy don’t have a beef with you that particular day.

My only caveat is that M1 Carbines can be finicky. The war babies are the best but should be gone over and re sprung. I have heard great things about the high end repros though like Fulton but have no experience. The M1 carbine is however, and most importantly for 99.9% of us, WICKED FUN!!!!

Take care, shoot safe.
Chris

[cslinger]

Funny anecdote....

We got a call many many years ago. A dude calmly says that he had rented a room to a “biker” who was angry about something or another and was was trying to break his door down to kill him. He said this calmly and almost monotone.

In the background I could here a door being kicked/beaten and yells of “I’m gonna f’n kill ya” etc. lots of scary commotion. Yet dude on phone was totally calm and just asking if we could send the police.

At that moment I thought and said....”you have a 12 gauge on the door don’t you?” He calmly replied “Yep”.

There was a LOUD COMMOTION, a yell of GET OUT OF MY HOUSE, a louder yell of “OHHH SHIIII......” and dude gets back on the phone and says take your time he decided to leave.

Cracks me up to this day.

[chaim]

12 gauge 00 buck is DEVASTATING at close range and seems to be the most common fight stopper in this area.

I know that 12ga shotguns are one of the most commonly suggested HD guns, and for good reason. They are definitely powerful. They leave quite an impressive wound. Assuming you are too close for any shot spread, we are talking about a .73 caliber hole. Another way of looking at it, you have 12 .33 caliber pellets in 12ga 00 buck. That's going to do some damage. Being a long gun, they are easier to shoot accurately than a handgun.

However, for me, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I don't love shotguns. I've had two, I did like my Mossberg, but I'd like any of these rifles more. The capacity of a shotgun is limited. Recoil is quite substantial. That means slower follow up shots, and the older I get, the less recoil tolerant I become. The noise levels are substantial. But probably the biggest factor for me would be the limited practice. There are few ranges around here that allow practice with a shotgun, and if they do, they usually are limited to slugs. I only know of 1 range that allows me to practice with 00 buck, and it is quite a distance away.

[TBM900]

OP Honestly I would say that you are waaaaaay over thinking this.

The issue of weapon type in court is not one to stress over as the odds of ever needing one are minuscule, of those that have ended up there (lawfully), I have yet to see a verifiable example where weapon type made any impact on the outcome. On the other hand weapon type WILL be an issue for all gun owners sooner than most will admit as gun rights are falling dominos, so choosing towards that end IS practical.

On our current path, firearms like AR's and AK's will be regulated to extinction before Mini's, M1 Carbine's, and LG's, of course the latter will fall after, but you will buy yourself some time. So that is in fact a far more prudent concern than what happens in a courtroom. (Im giving 10-20 years max before all of these issues will be moot)

As for scenarios, the odds of you needing to actually use a firearm in your home are pretty small, if it does happen the weapon type/caliber having any significant impact on outcome/safety are even smaller still. Further, the chance of ever needing to transition from one weapon to another is ridiculously tiny, as in winning Powerball twice in a row type odds. Personally I wouldn't even consider ANY of the above in making such a choice, people get way too caught up in such.

Bottom line, my recommendation is to buy what you like and will enjoy with an eye towards (likely) coming bans.



In your comments of M1 Carbines you mentioned the historic/collectable aspect, in all honesty I wouldn't even take that into consideration. There are hundreds of thousands of them out there, >99% of them have been arsenal refurbished, and collectors have snapped up most of the truly rare ones. Short of damaging one you really aren't going to affect value so long as you use USGI/quality parts, and even then thats a big maybe.

Ive personally been shooting, working on, and collecting them since the 70's and have seen the Carbine market explode during that time. They are wonderful HD weapons and one of the most 'fun' firearms youll find, usually Carbine's are the one everyone wants to shoot at gatherings IME. Just use my cautions in the previous post regarding buying one, both USGI and commercial, and don't get bit.




Back to leverguns, I noticed that you mentioned a HBB in 45lc. Unless you have a specific want for the caliber, say you own (or plan on owning) a matching revolver, I would recommend staying away from it. Commercial loads are far more limited and expensive compared 38/357 and there is no real performance advantage in terms of self-defense. Also, 45lc doesn't have the same flexibility that 38/357 does, be it commercial loads or if you decide to reload.

I also wouldn't get hung up on having a loading gate. People seem to think they might need one for 'fast on the fly reloads' if SHTF, again its simply not realistic/likley, and even then, loading gates are not all their cracked up to be. They can be fiddly to use and often need to be 'tuned', certain types of bullets will hangup consistently, and unloading the gun means cycling all cartridges.

On the other hand, tube loading is a breeze no matter the cartridge, as is unloading the tube. If you timed yourself loading a gate vs tube, you would be surprised how similar they are, unloading the the tube is faster and safer. Im a Marlin 1894 geek, primarily because I love stainless, but if Henry offered a 357 BB in stainless I would have no issues using the tube load design. Just remember that LG's do have a learning curve and are not as easy to operate (esp under stress) as most think.

And since you do have an interest in LG's you may want to check out the new 1894 CSBL.
I can't vouch as I do not own one of the new ones yet (all my 1894's are pre 'Remlin') but the reviews so far have been positive, if they stay that way Ill likely be adding one. Ive got an RMR on one of my 1894's and its a dream, the CSBL already having a rail makes it ready to go.


I would still say the Mini 14 will be the easiest to buy/use, cheapest, and ready to go option.
BTW What is your budget?

[TBM900]

Maybe this will help
Its based on my own experience
So take it for what its worth.....free

Most Fun
1- Carbine
2- Lever
3- Mini

Ease of Use
1- Carbine
2- Mini
3- Lever

Most Practical for HD
1- Carbine
2- Lever
3- Mini

Most Practical Past 100
1- Mini
2- Carbine
3- Lever

Best Resale
1- Carbine
3- Lever
4- Mini

Initial Buy In Cost
1- Mini
2- Lever
3- Carbine

Ease of Maintenance
1- Mini
2- Carbine
3- Lever

Ammunition Cost (new/brass)
1- 38 Special
2- 223/556
3- 30 Carbine
4- 357 Mag

Reliability
1- Mini
2- Carbine (only due to mags)
3- Lever

Durability
1- Mini
2- Carbine (only due to mags)
3- Lever

Best Bang for Buck
1- Mini
2- Lever
3- Carbine

Carbine assumes nice USGI or Fulton, I personally wouldn't consider any clones

[dgludwig]

chaim, have you given any consideration to getting a Ruger Model 99/44 Deerfield Carbine (used, of course)? Chambered in .44 Magnum and having a 4-shot, rotary magazine makes it a viable candidate for home defense, imo. Too, in deference to your opinion that it's a good idea to avoid the image of an "evil black assault weapon" in the event ignorant "peers" are going to judge the merits of a self-defense shooting in your home (an opinion that I'm in full agreement with), the referenced Ruger carbine not only looks relatively innocuous, its very name suggests the taking of venison, not slaughtering a man.

[amd6547]

Well, I got out to the rifle club this morn with my Auto Ordnance. I shot Critical Defense, PPU FMJ and SP. I used a couple GI mags, a KCI Korean 15rd, a Korean 30rd (marked “UU”), and a 30rd mag marked AYP, which may be FN made.
I put over 100rd through it with no problems other than two rounds of soft point in a GI mag that has been loaded at least a year. Probably a weak spring in that one.
The other issue I had was that the band spring wasn’t properly engaging the band, allowing it to slide forward under recoil, loosening the handguard.
When I got home, I dressed the edge on the band spring so that it clicks solidly on the band.
It was a good time at the range...Monday/workday, nobody was there, had the place to myself. I did some rapid fire at 25yds, and had a blast.
Slow fire, at that range, I found the Auto Ordnance early style flip sight was hitting a little right. I shot at 100yds and was hitting next to the bullseye, so I will have to get the punch out and drift the rear sight a little.
I have shot smaller groups at 100yds with my GI Inland, but that could be due to the folding stock and the fit of the front band. I may pick up some GI wood for this Carbine, as overall, I prefer it. Still, the folder makes this Carbine 27.5” long, small enough to fit in a racquet bag.

[mr bolo]

I would still recommend a home defense shotgun, very few if any ever survive a hit from a 12 ga load of buckshot

I wouldnt recommend a rifle for home defense, the range is going to be just across the room / backyard at the longest distance.

how often do you hear about Home Defense shootings at 50 - 100 yard range?

a shotgun will do the job and cost a lot less

a RUGER Mini 14 is $1000 in California

another reason not to use a high cost firearm, is the Police will take it if you ever had to use it for Home defense, they take it as evidence and you probably wont be getting it back.

as another poster mentioned, get the gun you like to shoot most often, something you train with regularly

a home defense shotgun will most likely just sit at home and not get much use, so it's best to get what you like to shoot for fun.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by amd6547

Slow fire, at that range, I found the Auto Ordnance early style flip sight was hitting a little right. I shot at 100yds and was hitting next to the bullseye, so I will have to get the punch out and drift the rear sight a little.

Friendly suggestion, don't punch drift the rear sight, I've seen even USGI receivers damaged from doing such. Call around to some local smiths and see if they have a Carbine sight pusher, they were everywhere back in the day so old timer shops usually have one. They support in such a way that protects the dovetail and receiver thus lessening the chance for cracking, especially if the sight is staked like USGI models are.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by mr bolo

I would still recommend a home defense shotgun, very few if any ever survive a hit from a 12 ga load of buckshot

The OP said he was not considering a shotgun for various reasons, I tend to agree.

[davidsog]

Anyway, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my first post. I'm not looking for a rifle for HD in isolation. It will be part of a HD system, so to speak. The first gun in my hand will be a handgun. With a typical self defense scenario (they run when they see the gun, or if I have to stop an attack, they stop after they are hit since they don't want to die), it will be over then and there. The job of the handgun, if it doesn't stop things just from being presented, is to get me to a long gun (something more capable). I'm not a big shotgun fan for a number of reasons, so it will be a rifle or carbine. If I'm going for the long gun, my handgun wasn't enough (very dedicated attacker, or multiple attackers), so I want a long gun with some real capability to handle such an escalated situation. Still, I want to retire my AR from these duties because I also want to consider a likely legal situation and go with something more PC looking that won't have prosecutors foaming at the mouth or scaring non-gun aware jurors (this is MD so it may not matter how good a shoot it is, criminal charges won't be unlikely, and a civil trial will be very likely).

Hopefully, that helps people understand my thinking (or, since it is 2:20am and I have a cold, maybe it was more confusing than what I said before).

Good to see you have a plan and a good one.

One thing that needs clarification because it seems like the decision point to get the rifle is when the handgun is no longer adequate.

my handgun wasn't enough (very dedicated attacker, or multiple attackers)

I use a handgun for CCW and in the home only for the immediate threat as I upgrade to a shotgun (long arm). I know you don't like the shotgun and that is your choice but you are giving up one the best HD weapons out there.

[davidsog]

a home defense shotgun will most likely just sit at home

You are correct because there are lots of misconceptions about shotguns.

For one thing, running the course with a shotgun and practicing the manual of arms can be loads of fun. I enjoy it as much if not more so than any other long arm.

It is cheaper to shoot than many rifles, including both the OP's choices.

https://www.luckygunner.com/shotgun/...ge-ammo-shells

The versatility of shotgun is the weapons strength. You can even get low recoil rounds if your worried about your shoulder.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/29...-7-8-oz-8-shot

[rickyrick]

I just don’t like long guns in the home as a self defense item.

My highly opinionated reason is simple. It’s just not convenient to have a long gun strapped to my body 24/7... my handgun, I can.
If you have minors in the home, it might even be illegal to have a long gun sitting in a corner or even a closet.
Not knocking anyone for choosing a long gun, just not my cup of tea.
Seem like Washington wants to charge you with a felony if your gun is stolen.

[agtman]

Well, the good points of the shotgun are:

* You don't have to have the training of a decorated Navy Seal to be able to shoot it effectively for use in home defense (HD).

* Has a relatively simple manual of arms.

* feeds on cheap(er) ammo generally, with variable power ranges, including 'low recoil' buckshot loads in 12ga or 20ga suitable for HD.

* If you actually have to shoot a bad guy with it, a prosecutor or D.A. won't be able to say later on that you did it with an evil black 'assault rifle' - or 'weapon of war' - which had a dreaded high-capacity magazine inserted in it, containing an evil number of horrifically lethal rounds (20+, 30+).

[stagpanther]

* If you actually have to shoot a bad guy with it, a prosecutor or D.A. won't be able to say later on that you did it with an evil black 'assault rifle' - or 'weapon of war' - which had a dreaded high-capacity magazine inserted in it, containing an evil number of horrifically lethal rounds (20+, 30+).

Boy, I don't know about that--the market is pretty full of tactical and semi-auto shotguns--unless you mean an "innocent" trap or clay shooting shotgun.

[rickyrick]

The “weapons of war” goal post has been moved back to include almost any semiautomatic weapon. If someone is concerned about the local government having issue with a tactical weapon, that local government may also have a duty to retreat requirement. Castle doctrine and stand your ground isn’t universal.
If you have time to retrieve your shotgun from it’s legally secured status... well you could have gotten to safety. All depends on where you live.

The op doesn’t want a shotgun, so it’s a moot point anyway.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by agtman

* If you actually have to shoot a bad guy with it, a prosecutor or D.A. won't be able to say later on that you did it with an evil black 'assault rifle' - or 'weapon of war' - which had a dreaded high-capacity magazine inserted in it, containing an evil number of horrifically lethal rounds (20+, 30+)

While Ive heard such repeated countless times over the many years...
I have yet to see a verifiable example where weapon type made any sort impact on the outcome of a lawful self-defense shooting.
But Im all ears.

[zxcvbob]

(I have no idea how to post a reply on this version of the forum software, the Quick Reply button doesn't do anything) "I have yet to see a verifiable example where weapon type made any sort impact on the outcome of a lawful self-defense shooting."

How about the Harold Fish case? He was convicted because the 10mm handgun he used was too evil.