NY Times: "The Rise of the Armed Left"

roscoe · November 2, 2018, 11:51 AM

An interesting article on how political events have pushed a rise in gun ownership on the left (read the comments - some good, some bad):

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/02/o...nra-trump.html

To keep this forum-safe, I will avoid talking about any political position. But I will say that I know quite a few liberals who have taken to owning guns in times in which they have felt persecuted because of their circumstances. It is less common now, but in the 1980s gay-bashing by gangs of young men was a real thing, and I had some gay friends arm themselves specifically in response to the perceived threat. And, although it is 40 years ago now, in my opinion, the Black Panthers arming themselves were the closest in recent times to embodying the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

It is interesting how this goes - folks on the right arming themselves against some perceived Muslim invasion threat, and folks on the left arming themselves because of a perceived Nazi/White Nationalist threat. (This board and THR are pretty good, but some gun boards are full of folks talking about Muslim invaders).

I actually find it refreshing that the left sees the need to take the initiative to protect themselves, because part of some left-leaning philosophy has historically been a pacifism (that I, as a liberal, find contemptible).

One of the NRA's big failings is not to be reaching out across the aisle. They frame themselves as pretty right wing - articles about Socialism, etc., that really have no place in advocating gun ownership. But maybe their interest is in the continued political conflict rather than actually convincing folks from different philosophies.

But, folks, let's keep it clean!

UncleEd · November 2, 2018, 12:21 PM

Comedian Bill Maher, well known for his stinging
verbal attacks and backer of many liberal causes,
says he's a gun owner for protection.

FITASC · November 2, 2018, 12:36 PM

But I'll bet he doesn't want YOU to own any. Feinstein is the same way; she has her CA CCW........

Just make sure to vote folks.

TXAZ · November 2, 2018, 12:37 PM

If you look at the fundamentals, weapons have no politics, but are often misused by politicians and despots.

I welcome anyone that has a rational view of the world (as in not BSCrazy) to consider gun ownership.

Onward Allusion · November 2, 2018, 12:39 PM

NPR reported that roughly 80% of Americans are fearful of escalating violence resulting from political incivilities. Not really surprising those on either side are arming themselves.

Hell, there was even a story on NPR titled "Another 'Civil War'? Pessimism About Political Violence Deepens In A Divided Nation.

A person's gotta be blind to not see certain things on the horizon.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 2, 2018, 12:56 PM

This can go off the rails fairly quickly. So I caution against rants about liberals or conservatives being no good blah, blah.

If you want to discuss having an eclectic view of the RKBA that's fine. Denounce people and that's not good.

If you pose a political spectrum litmus test as a necessity of being a 'true' supporter of gun rights, that's not ok.

The commentary for the article has quite a few positive comments from across the political spectrum and that is encouraging.

Don Fischer · November 2, 2018, 01:00 PM

Pretty interesting. They now, some of them, want to have guns to defend themselves, smart move! But inside I suspect they still want guns illegal, except their's of course! Have to give them credit for doing what it sounds like they are doing though. On the other hand, the garbage collector is a poor image for a gun owner, but maybe not for a garbage man. People like that do not represent me but in the eye's of the liberal they do. I have an older brother that the few time's he does go out to shoot get's all decked out in military style clothing. Give's the wrong impression to anti's I think but to me he simply looks stupid! I am a sometimes member of the NRA. They come across to me normally as a militant group. Can't stand LaPieere! I don't think he is any kind of a person I'd want to be representing me but, now and then, I'm back in. The NRA would have you believe that the only reason we have gun's today is because of them. I don't believe that. We have them today because of our constitution and to many representative's fear bucking it, that's a good thing! If push came to shove would many American's take up arm's against their country? I'm sure they would. I think the only thing that would come of confiscation is chaos! I think that would suit the vocal liberal's just fine.

Lohman446 · November 2, 2018, 01:47 PM

We make an error, especially in politics, by believing that we can know sometimes stance on one issue by his or her stance on another.

For instance someone may believe in single payer healthcare, free expression of sexuality an gender, a balanced budget, and the individual right to firearm ownership.

I expect there are far more people who are not in lock-step with the platforms of either major party than there are that are. A "progressive democrat" is not necessarily against the individual right to own firearms. a "conservative republican" will not necessarily defend it. These labels are FAR too encompassing.

cw308 · November 2, 2018, 02:31 PM

I feel the line is drawn in the sand , mind's are made up , no middle ground sad to say . Pick a side and let's see what happens .

gw44 · November 2, 2018, 05:57 PM

I believe cw308 is as close to being right as you can get !!!

SamNavy · November 2, 2018, 05:58 PM

2 years ago, I spent hours with a buddy helping him pick out his first firearm purchases. Rifle/pistol/shotgun... we went to a gunshow and a couple local stores. He spent about $2500 including decent optics for his AR15, some basic accessories and starter ammo.

He was very open about the irony of his decision... 15yrs Officer in the Navy, never bought a gun before, but figured he had to now before the woman he fully intended to vote for got elected and started banning them.

I've been a single-issue voter for a long time, and he wasn't... still glad to help him out regardless.

Nathan · November 2, 2018, 06:09 PM

As an NRA member, I fully support ALL Americans owning guns. I’ll even invite them myself.

rickyrick · November 2, 2018, 07:41 PM

I never was a single party voter. Moderate but slightly on the left side of the scale. I voted straight ticket now, and will never do otherwise from here on out. I may abstain from one particular ballot item for various reasons. But there is a party I will never cast a vote moving forward.
I support anyone exercising their rights no matter the party affiliation.
It’s tragic that people vote away their rights for promises that won’t be kept.

TXAZ · November 2, 2018, 09:20 PM

Have you ever taken someone shooting for (their) first time and they didn't smile after a little ballistic therapy?
I've probably let 100's shoot my guns, and can only think of 2 people who didn't like it and smile afterwards. One was autistic and wanted to try, but the impulse noise was too much. The other was a anti- who decided they wouldn't like it before hand.

rickyrick · November 2, 2018, 10:04 PM

Txaz,
I used to take people and show them how to shoot when I had my own place to shoot and they loved it.

Dano4734 · November 2, 2018, 10:12 PM

Myself I am no conservative, I am no liberal, I am an American and I welcome anyone who exercise their constitutional right. I refuse to belong to a party. I think the founding fathers got it right with the constitution. Any candidate that follows it either side will get my vote. Too often for me no one has my values so I do a write in. Too often our parties are more interested in the party and not what the fathers wrote. But that’s just me

rickyrick · November 3, 2018, 01:59 AM

I mean come on, if someone, some entity or some political party cannot be honest about gun, gun owners and the meaning of the second amendment... can they really be honest about anything?
Can they be trusted?
The gun issue is just one of many things.

buck460XVR · November 3, 2018, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan

As an NRA member, I fully support ALL Americans owning guns. I’ll even invite them myself.

^^^Same here.

Besides, it is not unusual for those on the left to own firearms, nor is it a new thing. Where I live I'm surrounded by Democrats that hunt and own firearms. Much of the difference of opinion is not ownership, but of how easily accessible firearms are nowadays, capacity and deadliness. Those folk on the left that want to ban all guns are extremists, like those on the right that think guns should be available to everyone, regardless of age, mental health and criminal history. If there really is the so called "line in the sand", it is a very wide one.

DaleA · November 3, 2018, 06:47 AM

Roscoe---I did read the comments to the article. Almost all were 'anti-firearms' ownership but there actually were a few pro-gun comments too. Being it is the New York Times I guess it would be surprising to have more than a handful of pro-gun comments. One thing I did notice in a goodly number of comments was the mantra:

We support the second amendment. No one is trying to take away your guns.
(But please turn in any and all semi-automatic guns to your government representatives.)

Personally I am CONSTANTLY amazed at how folk can be so FANATICALLY devoted to an issue (gun control) and be so IGNORANT about it at the same time. Proudly ignorant. Like it would be beneath them to find out how a gun and magazine go together. Like it would be beneath them to consider how many laws we already have on the books that aren't stopping 'gun violence'. Like it doesn't matter if they are disingenuous with their "weapons of war" slogan and about the fearful wounds caused by the mighty 5.56/.223 rounds fired by "assault weapons".

Your article led me to another New York Times article "It's Time to Talk About the NRA". The comments to the NRA article might be described as 100% "harsh" and I'd say "harsh" is a dramatic understatement.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...pgtype=Article

unclejack37 · November 3, 2018, 06:47 AM

I agree with CW308 and GW44 just a matter of time. The actor John Cromwell called it:
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...t-win-election

Next week maybe?

USNRet93 · November 3, 2018, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roscoe

An interesting article on how political events have pushed a rise in gun ownership on the left

To keep this forum-safe, I will avoid talking about any political position. But I will say that I know quite a few liberals who have taken to owning guns in times in which they have felt persecuted because of their circumstances. It is less common now, but in the 1980s gay-bashing by gangs of young men was a real thing, and I had some gay friends arm themselves specifically in response to the perceived threat. And, although it is 40 years ago now, in my opinion, the Black Panthers arming themselves were the closest in recent times to embodying the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

It is interesting how this goes - folks on the right arming themselves against some perceived Muslim invasion threat, and folks on the left arming themselves because of a perceived Nazi/White Nationalist threat. (This board and THR are pretty good, but some gun boards are full of folks talking about Muslim invaders).

I actually find it refreshing that the left sees the need to take the initiative to protect themselves, because part of some left-leaning philosophy has historically been a pacifism (that I, as a liberal, find contemptible).

One of the NRA's big failings is not to be reaching out across the aisle. They frame themselves as pretty right wing - articles about Socialism, etc., that really have no place in advocating gun ownership. But maybe their interest is in the continued political conflict rather than actually convincing folks from different philosophies.

But, folks, let's keep it clean!

Agree, and Yes, I are one(middle-left leaning liberal)..not because of the white nationalist 'threat'(altho in some places, that is real), but because lots of crazies out there with lots of ill intent and a lot are armed..with family, grand daughters, I feel better being armed.

Lohman466 above gets it.

Quote:

We make an error, especially in politics, by believing that we can know sometimes stance on one issue by his or her stance on another.

For instance someone may believe in single payer healthcare, free expression of sexuality an gender, a balanced budget, and the individual right to firearm ownership.

I expect there are far more people who are not in lock-step with the platforms of either major party than there are that are. A "progressive democrat" is not necessarily against the individual right to own firearms. a "conservative republican" will not necessarily defend it. These labels are FAR too encompassing.

Wag · November 3, 2018, 08:33 AM

As far as daily life goes, I'm mostly conservative but I still have a liberal view of several things. Most of the people I know personally are the same. That said, I've become a one-issue voter and I vet candidates based on their views and policy history with regard to gun rights.

There are a lot of liberal gun owners out there and I still believe that if we didn't have the support of congressional members who are democratic gun owners, we would not have the rights we do now. The vocal liberal media and liberal screamers are, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, the exception rather than the rule.

Of course, a lot of people are voting straight ticket which is an uneducated and irresponsible way to vote. Nevertheless, lately, I've been hearing Democrat radio ads telling voters that they SHOULD vote straight ticket, top to bottom, "for the children." As if the Democrats are the only people out there who think education is important. The irony, of course, is in this uneducated approach to voting. As a result, the temptation to vote straight ticket Republican is hard to resist.

/Soapbox before I go too far with this.

--Wag--

cw308 · November 3, 2018, 08:36 AM

Well Guys , Coming from NY where the gun laws are strict , that's fine but even here you give an inch they want to take a mile . As far as the WIDE line in the sad , that's the same mind set , a line is a line . I've been to war an saw what man can do to man . It's getting to the point with even friends with views so set , it's past the point of talking . Like I said before , Pick a side there's NO middle ground , things are getting ugly. Keep this Country Safe no place on earth like America , it can go south very quickly, just keep listening to Hollywood and bleeding hearts.

USNRet93 · November 3, 2018, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wag

As far as daily life goes, I'm mostly conservative but I still have a liberal view of several things. Most of the people I know personally are the same. That said, I've become a one-issue voter and I vet candidates based on their views and policy history with regard to gun rights.

There are a lot of liberal gun owners out there and I still believe that if we didn't have the support of congressional members who are democratic gun owners, we would not have the rights we do now. The vocal liberal media and liberal screamers are, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, the exception rather than the rule.

Of course, a lot of people are voting straight ticket which is an uneducated and irresponsible way to vote. Nevertheless, lately, I've been hearing Democrat radio ads telling voters that they SHOULD vote straight ticket, top to bottom, "for the children." As if the Democrats are the only people out there who think education is important. The irony, of course, is in this uneducated approach to voting. As a result, the temptation to vote straight ticket Republican is hard to resist.

/Soapbox before I go too far with this.

--Wag--

No doubt I'll get a time out for this but trump just said at one of his 'rallies' that if you "love your children and care about their future, vote republican"..so it goes both ways.

Wag · November 3, 2018, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USNRet93

No doubt I'll get a time out for this but trump just said at one of his 'rallies' that if you "love your children and care about their future, vote republican"..so it goes both ways.

Well, crap. I didn't hear that one. Goes to show, however, that the left has no exclusive claim to craziness.

--Wag--

November 2, 2018, 11:51 AM	#1
roscoe Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 575	NY Times: "The Rise of the Armed Left" An interesting article on how political events have pushed a rise in gun ownership on the left (read the comments - some good, some bad): https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/02/o...nra-trump.html To keep this forum-safe, I will avoid talking about any political position. But I will say that I know quite a few liberals who have taken to owning guns in times in which they have felt persecuted because of their circumstances. It is less common now, but in the 1980s gay-bashing by gangs of young men was a real thing, and I had some gay friends arm themselves specifically in response to the perceived threat. And, although it is 40 years ago now, in my opinion, the Black Panthers arming themselves were the closest in recent times to embodying the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. It is interesting how this goes - folks on the right arming themselves against some perceived Muslim invasion threat, and folks on the left arming themselves because of a perceived Nazi/White Nationalist threat. (This board and THR are pretty good, but some gun boards are full of folks talking about Muslim invaders). I actually find it refreshing that the left sees the need to take the initiative to protect themselves, because part of some left-leaning philosophy has historically been a pacifism (that I, as a liberal, find contemptible). One of the NRA's big failings is not to be reaching out across the aisle. They frame themselves as pretty right wing - articles about Socialism, etc., that really have no place in advocating gun ownership. But maybe their interest is in the continued political conflict rather than actually convincing folks from different philosophies. But, folks, let's keep it clean!

November 2, 2018, 12:36 PM	#3
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	But I'll bet he doesn't want YOU to own any. Feinstein is the same way; she has her CA CCW........ Just make sure to vote folks. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

November 2, 2018, 12:37 PM	#4
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	If you look at the fundamentals, weapons have no politics, but are often misused by politicians and despots. I welcome anyone that has a rational view of the world (as in not BSCrazy) to consider gun ownership. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

November 2, 2018, 12:39 PM	#5
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Back in a Non-Free State Posts: 3,133	NPR reported that roughly 80% of Americans are fearful of escalating violence resulting from political incivilities. Not really surprising those on either side are arming themselves. Hell, there was even a story on NPR titled "Another 'Civil War'? Pessimism About Political Violence Deepens In A Divided Nation. A person's gotta be blind to not see certain things on the horizon. __________________ Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying

November 2, 2018, 12:56 PM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	This can go off the rails fairly quickly. So I caution against rants about liberals or conservatives being no good blah, blah. If you want to discuss having an eclectic view of the RKBA that's fine. Denounce people and that's not good. If you pose a political spectrum litmus test as a necessity of being a 'true' supporter of gun rights, that's not ok. The commentary for the article has quite a few positive comments from across the political spectrum and that is encouraging. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 2, 2018, 12:21 PM	#2
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	Comedian Bill Maher, well known for his stinging verbal attacks and backer of many liberal causes, says he's a gun owner for protection.

November 2, 2018, 01:00 PM	#7
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	Pretty interesting. They now, some of them, want to have guns to defend themselves, smart move! But inside I suspect they still want guns illegal, except their's of course! Have to give them credit for doing what it sounds like they are doing though. On the other hand, the garbage collector is a poor image for a gun owner, but maybe not for a garbage man. People like that do not represent me but in the eye's of the liberal they do. I have an older brother that the few time's he does go out to shoot get's all decked out in military style clothing. Give's the wrong impression to anti's I think but to me he simply looks stupid! I am a sometimes member of the NRA. They come across to me normally as a militant group. Can't stand LaPieere! I don't think he is any kind of a person I'd want to be representing me but, now and then, I'm back in. The NRA would have you believe that the only reason we have gun's today is because of them. I don't believe that. We have them today because of our constitution and to many representative's fear bucking it, that's a good thing! If push came to shove would many American's take up arm's against their country? I'm sure they would. I think the only thing that would come of confiscation is chaos! I think that would suit the vocal liberal's just fine.

November 2, 2018, 01:47 PM	#8
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	We make an error, especially in politics, by believing that we can know sometimes stance on one issue by his or her stance on another. For instance someone may believe in single payer healthcare, free expression of sexuality an gender, a balanced budget, and the individual right to firearm ownership. I expect there are far more people who are not in lock-step with the platforms of either major party than there are that are. A "progressive democrat" is not necessarily against the individual right to own firearms. a "conservative republican" will not necessarily defend it. These labels are FAR too encompassing.

November 2, 2018, 02:31 PM	#9
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I feel the line is drawn in the sand , mind's are made up , no middle ground sad to say . Pick a side and let's see what happens .

November 2, 2018, 05:57 PM	#10
gw44 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 311	I believe cw308 is as close to being right as you can get !!!

November 2, 2018, 05:58 PM	#11
SamNavy Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2011 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 433	2 years ago, I spent hours with a buddy helping him pick out his first firearm purchases. Rifle/pistol/shotgun... we went to a gunshow and a couple local stores. He spent about $2500 including decent optics for his AR15, some basic accessories and starter ammo. He was very open about the irony of his decision... 15yrs Officer in the Navy, never bought a gun before, but figured he had to now before the woman he fully intended to vote for got elected and started banning them. I've been a single-issue voter for a long time, and he wasn't... still glad to help him out regardless.

November 2, 2018, 06:09 PM	#12
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	As an NRA member, I fully support ALL Americans owning guns. I’ll even invite them myself.

November 2, 2018, 07:41 PM	#13
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	I never was a single party voter. Moderate but slightly on the left side of the scale. I voted straight ticket now, and will never do otherwise from here on out. I may abstain from one particular ballot item for various reasons. But there is a party I will never cast a vote moving forward. I support anyone exercising their rights no matter the party affiliation. It’s tragic that people vote away their rights for promises that won’t be kept.

November 2, 2018, 09:20 PM	#14
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Have you ever taken someone shooting for (their) first time and they didn't smile after a little ballistic therapy? I've probably let 100's shoot my guns, and can only think of 2 people who didn't like it and smile afterwards. One was autistic and wanted to try, but the impulse noise was too much. The other was a anti- who decided they wouldn't like it before hand. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

November 2, 2018, 10:04 PM	#15
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	Txaz, I used to take people and show them how to shoot when I had my own place to shoot and they loved it.

November 2, 2018, 10:12 PM	#16
Dano4734 Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Posts: 730	Myself I am no conservative, I am no liberal, I am an American and I welcome anyone who exercise their constitutional right. I refuse to belong to a party. I think the founding fathers got it right with the constitution. Any candidate that follows it either side will get my vote. Too often for me no one has my values so I do a write in. Too often our parties are more interested in the party and not what the fathers wrote. But that’s just me Last edited by Dano4734; November 2, 2018 at 10:37 PM.

November 3, 2018, 01:59 AM	#17
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	I mean come on, if someone, some entity or some political party cannot be honest about gun, gun owners and the meaning of the second amendment... can they really be honest about anything? Can they be trusted? The gun issue is just one of many things.

November 3, 2018, 06:47 AM	#19
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Roscoe---I did read the comments to the article. Almost all were 'anti-firearms' ownership but there actually were a few pro-gun comments too. Being it is the New York Times I guess it would be surprising to have more than a handful of pro-gun comments. One thing I did notice in a goodly number of comments was the mantra: We support the second amendment. No one is trying to take away your guns. (But please turn in any and all semi-automatic guns to your government representatives.) Personally I am CONSTANTLY amazed at how folk can be so FANATICALLY devoted to an issue (gun control) and be so IGNORANT about it at the same time. Proudly ignorant. Like it would be beneath them to find out how a gun and magazine go together. Like it would be beneath them to consider how many laws we already have on the books that aren't stopping 'gun violence'. Like it doesn't matter if they are disingenuous with their "weapons of war" slogan and about the fearful wounds caused by the mighty 5.56/.223 rounds fired by "assault weapons". Your article led me to another New York Times article "It's Time to Talk About the NRA". The comments to the NRA article might be described as 100% "harsh" and I'd say "harsh" is a dramatic understatement. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...pgtype=Article

November 3, 2018, 06:47 AM	#20
unclejack37 Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2014 Location: Delaware Posts: 121	I agree with CW308 and GW44 just a matter of time. The actor John Cromwell called it: https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...t-win-election Next week maybe?

November 3, 2018, 08:33 AM	#22
Wag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 988	As far as daily life goes, I'm mostly conservative but I still have a liberal view of several things. Most of the people I know personally are the same. That said, I've become a one-issue voter and I vet candidates based on their views and policy history with regard to gun rights. There are a lot of liberal gun owners out there and I still believe that if we didn't have the support of congressional members who are democratic gun owners, we would not have the rights we do now. The vocal liberal media and liberal screamers are, in my never-to-be-humble opinion, the exception rather than the rule. Of course, a lot of people are voting straight ticket which is an uneducated and irresponsible way to vote. Nevertheless, lately, I've been hearing Democrat radio ads telling voters that they SHOULD vote straight ticket, top to bottom, "for the children." As if the Democrats are the only people out there who think education is important. The irony, of course, is in this uneducated approach to voting. As a result, the temptation to vote straight ticket Republican is hard to resist. /Soapbox before I go too far with this. --Wag-- __________________ "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

November 3, 2018, 08:36 AM	#23
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Well Guys , Coming from NY where the gun laws are strict , that's fine but even here you give an inch they want to take a mile . As far as the WIDE line in the sad , that's the same mind set , a line is a line . I've been to war an saw what man can do to man . It's getting to the point with even friends with views so set , it's past the point of talking . Like I said before , Pick a side there's NO middle ground , things are getting ugly. Keep this Country Safe no place on earth like America , it can go south very quickly, just keep listening to Hollywood and bleeding hearts.