Who's to blame?

Boogershooter · June 14, 2016, 12:29 AM

A neighbor of mine recently bought a rifle from a individual. A couple of weeks later he got in a tight spot for money and pawned the gun. He went back the next Friday after he got paid and got the gun back from pawn. Exactly a week later he got a phone call from the pawn shop saying the gun had been reported stolen 5 years ago in a different state. They stated he had to bring the gun back or face charges. It's always been my understanding that if a pawnshop took a gun in it had to clear a background check before it could be released to anyone even if it was the person who pawned it. My understanding could be wrong but who assumes the responsibility in this situation?

**Frank Ettin** · June 14, 2016, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogershooter

...My understanding could be wrong but who assumes the responsibility in this situation?

Responsibility for what? Why is it a question of responsibility?

The bottom line is that one can not acquire legal ownership of anything that was stolen. Whatever it is (gun, camera, watch, painting, etc.) remains the legal property of whomever it was stolen from. And if the item is found, the person from whom it was stolen is entitled to have it returned.

So the gun does not, and can not, belong to your neighbor. Of course that means that the seller didn't own the gun either. So your neighbor has a claim against the seller for return of the purchase price; and that person has a claim against the person from whom he bought it -- all the way up the line. Of course, if the neighbor can't find the seller, he's out of luck. And if the seller won't refund the money, the neighbor might have to sue.

Boogershooter · June 14, 2016, 08:22 AM

The shop I do business with will not put a gun on the shelf or release a gun from pawn til the gun checks out clean. Is it legal for this shop to release the gun back to my neighbor before it comes back clean?

kilimanjaro · June 14, 2016, 10:05 AM

I find it hard to believe that the pawnshop was not aware of the rifle's status when your friend returned with the money to get it from pawn. Around here, some shops will check it out before they accept it into pawn, and all will post it to the law enforcement site within a day or two.

Having said that, your bud is out the rifle. He needs to contact the local sheriff and discuss the matter with him, then arrange for pickup by the sheriff. He doesn't have to return it to the pawn shop, he has no obligation to them.

Lohman446 · June 14, 2016, 10:13 AM

I look at stolen goods like a hot potato. Whoever has it in his or her possession when it is discovered it is stolen is basically out the property. As others have said the obligation is to law enforcement and not the pawn shop.

Interestingly if the pawn shop were to ask him to return it and exchange money you might be knowingly trading in stolen property at that point. Call the local sheriff department and ask for advice.

Theoretically your friend might have recourse from whoever he bought it from (and down the line) but it would be hard to collect.

/Not a lawyer. Free advise from an unqualified individual is worth as much as you think it is.

**Frank Ettin** · June 14, 2016, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogershooter

....Is it legal for this shop to release the gun back to my neighbor before it comes back clean?

Beats me. But that's also pretty much irrelevant here. If it's a stolen rifle, your neighbor needs to turn it in.

Now if you think someone at the pawn is not being truthful about the rifle being stolen, that's another matter. The neighbor should contact the police himself and check out the situation personally. But still, if it's a stolen gun, your neighbor needs to turn it in.

Boogershooter · June 14, 2016, 10:49 AM

He returned it back to the pawn shop. I just find it absurd they released the gun so quickly. I truely thought there was a law in place just for that.

Boogershooter · June 14, 2016, 12:49 PM

I went by the sheriff's dept while at lunch. If they can't find the owner that reported it stolen within a reasonable amount of time he will be able to keep the gun. No charges against anybody.

**Aguila Blanca** · June 14, 2016, 03:47 PM

So we are to assume that the gun did find its way to the sheriff's office? I was having difficulty figuring out why the neighbor should return the gun to the pawn shop. If it was purportedly a stolen firearm, I would think it should be turned over directly to the police.

357 Python · June 14, 2016, 04:06 PM

The best thing he can do in my opinion is to contact an attorney and have the attorney take care of it. He can contact the local law enforcement agency who can then run the serial number to see if it is indeed stolen. Then the attorney can arrange for its return on your behalf. There is also the possibility that the pawn shop had or has a buyer for the rifle who is willing to pay a premium price for it. While most pawn shops are reputable there are those that are not.

Skans · June 14, 2016, 05:02 PM

Quote:

The bottom line is that one can not acquire legal ownership of anything that was stolen.

Perhaps, but they may be able to acquire good title to the firearm by being a bona fide purchaser for value. Depends on state laws, your proof that you paid good value and without notice, and what some judge has to say about it.

Boogershooter · June 14, 2016, 07:19 PM

In the state of louisiana every gun that goes thru a pawn broker has to be registered into a national database. The rifle was reported stolen out of Houston Texas. The sheriff's dept will make an attempt to find the original owner. If they do not get in touch with this person after a valid attempt then he can take legal ownership of the rifle.

Double Naught Spy · June 14, 2016, 07:34 PM

Quote:

They stated he had to bring the gun back or face charges.

I would not have taken it back to the pawn shop. That is hokey. The sheriff's department should have contacted the person with the gun...like AB said. Turning over a stolen gun that you now know to be stolen to some 3rd party other than law enforcement sounds wrong. The pawn shop should not be knowingly accepting illegal/stolen guns.

**Frank Ettin** · June 14, 2016, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skans

Perhaps, but they may be able to acquire good title to the firearm by being a bona fide purchaser for value....

In general, no. The doctrine of "good faith bona fide purchaser" does not apply when the property was acquired somewhere in the chain of title by theft. No one, from the thief onward has any lawful claim to the item. Because the thief acquired no lawful claim he can not transfer any lawful claim up the chain of title. See the discussion here:

Quote:

...A basic common-law principle is that an individual cannot pass a better title than she has, and a buyer can acquire no better title than that of the seller. A thief does not have title in stolen goods, so a person who purchases from the thief does not acquire title....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skans

...Depends on state laws, your proof that you paid good value and without notice, and what some judge has to say about it.

Cite legal authority supporting that contention.

Boogershooter · June 14, 2016, 08:22 PM

Frank I truely thank you for your help on this. I do not have the law in writing, just what I was told by the sheriff's dept that is handling the situation. According to them this is fairly common. They have the choice to take the firearm into their custody for the investigation, or they can leave it with the pawn broker until it is resolved. If they cannot get in contact with the person who reported it stolen after 1 year the record will be cleared and the rifle will then be registered to the pawn broker or individual.

kilimanjaro · June 14, 2016, 09:06 PM

I think you can about guarantee if it's in the custody of the pawnshop, the pawnshop is going to acquire the title to it in a year, if anyone but the legal owner is going to get it.

If I owned that shop and the sheriff told me your buddy was the owner he would be looking at a daily storage fee, to be satisfied on transfer of title to the rifle, of course.

Something is not right about this at all.

Tell you bud to get his attorney involved. If he was legally the person in line to acquire title, then the pawnshop extorted his right to acquire title from him.

Hopefully he's learned to keep a couple hundred bucks in the bank so he doesn't have to play catchup every payday.

Prof Young · June 14, 2016, 09:34 PM

I don't think I'd be taking it back to the pawn shop. They are not law enforcement, but are now in trouble for not checking on this gun in a timely manner. I'd say hang onto the gun, check with local law enforcement, and wait until someone with the authority of law enforcement says you have to relinquish the gun to them.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young

Boogershooter · June 14, 2016, 10:21 PM

I've helped him alot over the years and kinda feel sry for the guy. He's really is a good guy he just got tangled up in a bad deal. He turned the gun into the pawn shop because they are the ones that did the nics paperwork or whatever it's called. The sheriff's dept will pick it up from them. He's never been good at managing money but hopefully this will teach him a valuable lesson.

Lohman446 · June 15, 2016, 06:33 AM

Who has the money?

When the pawn shop demanded the gun be returned to them (not law enforcement) did they return the money in question? Or do they currently have possession of both the item and the money? To me that seems entirely against the concept of a pawn shop.

Skans · June 15, 2016, 07:02 AM

Here's one example, Frank:

Article 524 of the Civil Code of the state of Louisiana provides in pertinent part as follows:

“the owner of a lost or stolen moveable may recover it from a possessor who bought it in good faith in a public auction or from a merchant customarily selling similar things on reimbursing the purchase price"

Basically, Louisiana will require the victim of a theft pay a BFP the price paid if the victim wants the item back. The theory is that the victim of the theft could have insured against the theft and be made whole; the BFP has no way of protecting himself from the loss.

45_auto · June 15, 2016, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogershooter

It's always been my understanding that if a pawnshop took a gun in it had to clear a background check before it could be released to anyone even if it was the person who pawned it.

You misunderstood. The serial numbers (guns and everything else) are required to be provided to local law enforcement, but it's a one-way street. The pawnshop is not required to wait on an OK from the cops before they release an item. It is up to the cops what they do with the serial numbers. Most run them as soon as practical, if they get a hit (stolen) they come get the item. If it's been purchased or picked up they get it from the person who has it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogershooter

In the state of louisiana every gun that goes thru a pawn broker has to be registered into a national database.

Not sure what Louisiana you live in, but in the one in the US that includes New Orleans, no guns that go thru a pawnbroker are "registered into a national database". Serial numbers of guns and most other pawned items are usually checked against the information contained in the NCIC (National Crime Information Center) database, but so far as I know none of it is registered.

All pawnshop transactional information (including gun serial numbers) is required to be provided to local law enforcement daily or as required by the police chief or sheriff. Most departments routinely check the serial numbers of guns and major items against the NCIC database. Since pawning stolen goods is very common, many departments check every serial number of everything against the NCIC.

https://www.legis.la.gov/Legis/Law.aspx?d=93485

Quote:

§1798. Information furnished to police, sheriff, or Department of Public Safety and Corrections

A.(1) Every pawnbroker shall provide all transactional information obtained pursuant to R.S. 37:1796 to the chief of police of the city or town in which he is doing business or to the sheriff of the parish in which he is doing business, on a daily basis by the end of the next business day or on such less frequent basis as is required by the chief of police or sheriff. The means for providing the transactional information required under this Section shall be selected by the chief of police or sheriff and shall be one of the following:

Sounds like to me like your buddy pawned the gun, then paid his loan off and picked it up before the local law enforcement agency had a chance to run it's serial number in NCIC. Once they did, they wanted the stolen gun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohnman446

When the pawn shop demanded the gun be returned to them (not law enforcement) did they return the money in question?

What money in question? He pawned the gun, the pawn shop loaned him money. He repaid the loan with interest and got the gun back. Are you suggesting that they return whatever interest he paid on the loan?

Lohman446 · June 15, 2016, 07:43 AM

Quote:

What money in question? He pawned the gun, the pawn shop loaned him money. He repaid the loan with interest and got the gun back. Are you suggesting that they return whatever interest he paid on the loan?

I'm suggesting the pawn shop is now in possession of the money loaned against the gun (he paid back the loan to get back the gun) and the gun itself.

Pretty much a no lose situation for them. If they demanded back the gun which was effectively "bought back" from them by redeeming the loan they should have also returned to the same status as before the loan was paid off (by returning the money). If they wanted to argue at that point that the friend should have never pawned the firearm (because it was stolen and they could not take possession) they should have then returned the firearm to the friend in return for the money.

At no point should the pawn shop gain and have possession of both the money and the gun because at no point was that the "chain of ownership"(even illegitimate ownership) of the item in question.

Now had the gun properly been handed over to law enforcement your friend would still be out the money. It strikes me as odd that the pawn shop should have both the money and the gun

Boogershooter · June 15, 2016, 07:59 AM

45 you are correct. The data base I stated was the ncic but I completely mistakes it. It's not actually registered, it's checked thru it. Most pawn shops wait til the ncic check is completed before they sale a gun. The pawn shop does not have possession of the gun the sheriff's dept does.

Lohman446 · June 15, 2016, 08:09 AM

Quote:

The pawn shop does not have possession of the gun the sheriff's dept does.

I misunderstood that and it led to my confusion. My bad

kilimanjaro · June 15, 2016, 09:31 AM

It was stated above the gun was returned to the pawnshop, no misunderstanding at all. Apparently the Sheriff has picked it up there and now holds it in their custody.

Do have your bud's get his attorney to contact the Sheriff, just to make it clear that your bud is an innocent purchaser, perhaps clarify the possession chain before he acquired it, and incidentally make claim to the rifle now in anticipation of the waiting period. He should also inform the pawnshop that they have no claim on the rifle.

With the Sheriff receiving the rifle from the pawnshop, returning it to the pawnshop is going to be a very simple action next year, just one "Oops", and your bud is out the price of his rifle.

June 14, 2016, 12:29 AM	#1
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Who's to blame? A neighbor of mine recently bought a rifle from a individual. A couple of weeks later he got in a tight spot for money and pawned the gun. He went back the next Friday after he got paid and got the gun back from pawn. Exactly a week later he got a phone call from the pawn shop saying the gun had been reported stolen 5 years ago in a different state. They stated he had to bring the gun back or face charges. It's always been my understanding that if a pawnshop took a gun in it had to clear a background check before it could be released to anyone even if it was the person who pawned it. My understanding could be wrong but who assumes the responsibility in this situation?

June 14, 2016, 09:34 PM	#17
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Hmmmm . . . . I don't think I'd be taking it back to the pawn shop. They are not law enforcement, but are now in trouble for not checking on this gun in a timely manner. I'd say hang onto the gun, check with local law enforcement, and wait until someone with the authority of law enforcement says you have to relinquish the gun to them. Live well, be safe Prof Young

June 14, 2016, 08:22 AM	#3
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	The shop I do business with will not put a gun on the shelf or release a gun from pawn til the gun checks out clean. Is it legal for this shop to release the gun back to my neighbor before it comes back clean?

June 14, 2016, 10:05 AM	#4
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	I find it hard to believe that the pawnshop was not aware of the rifle's status when your friend returned with the money to get it from pawn. Around here, some shops will check it out before they accept it into pawn, and all will post it to the law enforcement site within a day or two. Having said that, your bud is out the rifle. He needs to contact the local sheriff and discuss the matter with him, then arrange for pickup by the sheriff. He doesn't have to return it to the pawn shop, he has no obligation to them.

June 14, 2016, 10:13 AM	#5
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	I look at stolen goods like a hot potato. Whoever has it in his or her possession when it is discovered it is stolen is basically out the property. As others have said the obligation is to law enforcement and not the pawn shop. Interestingly if the pawn shop were to ask him to return it and exchange money you might be knowingly trading in stolen property at that point. Call the local sheriff department and ask for advice. Theoretically your friend might have recourse from whoever he bought it from (and down the line) but it would be hard to collect. /Not a lawyer. Free advise from an unqualified individual is worth as much as you think it is.

June 14, 2016, 10:49 AM	#7
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	He returned it back to the pawn shop. I just find it absurd they released the gun so quickly. I truely thought there was a law in place just for that.

June 14, 2016, 12:49 PM	#8
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	I went by the sheriff's dept while at lunch. If they can't find the owner that reported it stolen within a reasonable amount of time he will be able to keep the gun. No charges against anybody.

June 14, 2016, 03:47 PM	#9
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	So we are to assume that the gun did find its way to the sheriff's office? I was having difficulty figuring out why the neighbor should return the gun to the pawn shop. If it was purportedly a stolen firearm, I would think it should be turned over directly to the police.

June 14, 2016, 04:06 PM	#10
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	The best thing he can do in my opinion is to contact an attorney and have the attorney take care of it. He can contact the local law enforcement agency who can then run the serial number to see if it is indeed stolen. Then the attorney can arrange for its return on your behalf. There is also the possibility that the pawn shop had or has a buyer for the rifle who is willing to pay a premium price for it. While most pawn shops are reputable there are those that are not.

June 14, 2016, 07:19 PM	#12
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	In the state of louisiana every gun that goes thru a pawn broker has to be registered into a national database. The rifle was reported stolen out of Houston Texas. The sheriff's dept will make an attempt to find the original owner. If they do not get in touch with this person after a valid attempt then he can take legal ownership of the rifle.

June 14, 2016, 08:22 PM	#15
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	Frank I truely thank you for your help on this. I do not have the law in writing, just what I was told by the sheriff's dept that is handling the situation. According to them this is fairly common. They have the choice to take the firearm into their custody for the investigation, or they can leave it with the pawn broker until it is resolved. If they cannot get in contact with the person who reported it stolen after 1 year the record will be cleared and the rifle will then be registered to the pawn broker or individual.

June 14, 2016, 09:06 PM	#16
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	I think you can about guarantee if it's in the custody of the pawnshop, the pawnshop is going to acquire the title to it in a year, if anyone but the legal owner is going to get it. If I owned that shop and the sheriff told me your buddy was the owner he would be looking at a daily storage fee, to be satisfied on transfer of title to the rifle, of course. Something is not right about this at all. Tell you bud to get his attorney involved. If he was legally the person in line to acquire title, then the pawnshop extorted his right to acquire title from him. Hopefully he's learned to keep a couple hundred bucks in the bank so he doesn't have to play catchup every payday.

June 14, 2016, 10:21 PM	#18
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	I've helped him alot over the years and kinda feel sry for the guy. He's really is a good guy he just got tangled up in a bad deal. He turned the gun into the pawn shop because they are the ones that did the nics paperwork or whatever it's called. The sheriff's dept will pick it up from them. He's never been good at managing money but hopefully this will teach him a valuable lesson.

June 15, 2016, 06:33 AM	#19
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Who has the money? When the pawn shop demanded the gun be returned to them (not law enforcement) did they return the money in question? Or do they currently have possession of both the item and the money? To me that seems entirely against the concept of a pawn shop.

June 15, 2016, 07:02 AM	#20
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Here's one example, Frank: Article 524 of the Civil Code of the state of Louisiana provides in pertinent part as follows: “the owner of a lost or stolen moveable may recover it from a possessor who bought it in good faith in a public auction or from a merchant customarily selling similar things on reimbursing the purchase price" Basically, Louisiana will require the victim of a theft pay a BFP the price paid if the victim wants the item back. The theory is that the victim of the theft could have insured against the theft and be made whole; the BFP has no way of protecting himself from the loss.

June 15, 2016, 07:59 AM	#23
Boogershooter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2014 Posts: 645	45 you are correct. The data base I stated was the ncic but I completely mistakes it. It's not actually registered, it's checked thru it. Most pawn shops wait til the ncic check is completed before they sale a gun. The pawn shop does not have possession of the gun the sheriff's dept does.

June 15, 2016, 09:31 AM	#25
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	It was stated above the gun was returned to the pawnshop, no misunderstanding at all. Apparently the Sheriff has picked it up there and now holds it in their custody. Do have your bud's get his attorney to contact the Sheriff, just to make it clear that your bud is an innocent purchaser, perhaps clarify the possession chain before he acquired it, and incidentally make claim to the rifle now in anticipation of the waiting period. He should also inform the pawnshop that they have no claim on the rifle. With the Sheriff receiving the rifle from the pawnshop, returning it to the pawnshop is going to be a very simple action next year, just one "Oops", and your bud is out the price of his rifle.