Speed vs Accuracy - Page 4

BlueTrain · August 21, 2015, 06:24 AM

Typically, discussions like this devolve into the merits of aimed fire versus point shooting. But those who promote the idea of point shooting never discount the value of aimed fire. The question might be at what distance a shooting incident most likely to occur and under what circumstances. I suppose we all have our own ideas about that. Hitting the target is essential. Speed is essential. Some might even say it's easier to teach someone to be a good point shooter than a good target shooter. I don't know. Perhaps the standards are different.

Is there anything that isn't essential? Or is there anything that is detrimental to either speed or accuracy? There is also the whole issue of actually fighting someone, too, which is a great stumbling block and, frankly, I don't know how to discuss it. But Jeff Cooper wrote a thin book about the subject and I don't think he even mentioned guns.

Another point is that sometimes it is said that formal target shooting does not help in combat shooting. I don't know if it does or not but Fairbairn believed it didn't and I think he knew what he was talking about. Yet many well known policemen and other law enforcement people as well as military people were successful competitive target shooters with handguns. People like Skeeter Skelton and Charles Askins. The latter was not shy about letting people know he was an experienced gunfighter. Not many people are referred to as gunfighters these days.

I'm willing to give people more credit for devising their own self-defense methods that others might. Some writers who should have known even mentioned some by name who had done that, too, although it's possible it may have been easier in the past (when you didn't need to go to an indoor range to shoot). Anyway, who do you suppose taught Wyatt Earp all his tricks?

AK103K · August 21, 2015, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Or is there anything that is detrimental to either speed or accuracy? There is also the whole issue of actually fighting someone, too, which is a great stumbling block and, frankly, I don't know how to discuss it.

A lack of will.

You can be the most accurate, and fastest shooter out there, but if you dont have the skills AND the will to pull the trigger, whats the point in the other two?

As to fighting someone, thats a very valid point, and is really directly related to will. Id be willing to bet, many, if not most who post, have little in the way of actual fighting experience or skills, and probably havent had a contact fight since junior high, and even then, it probably wasnt really a fight. Most dont seek out that type of experience, be it for real, or in training. I get the impression that many seem to think there is no need, as they have a gun, why would they have to fight?

So much of whats discussed here, is gun related, which is to be expected, simply because its a gun board. You also often see that things can get a little tense, when things start going towards "fighting", and its usually pretty easy to see where a persons mindset (or lack thereof) is. More often than not, you get inundated with the usual magazine/textbook legal issues, and the last thing it seems people want to discuss, is actually doing something. You hear all about what gun, style, tecnique is best, just dont discuss the application of them, in a realistic manner. Apparently, its not in good taste.

The only site Ive come across so far, that does discuss things in a realistic way, has been Suarez's "Warrior Talk". They arent bashful about discussing anything "fighting" wise, and are more on point with things. He's also been very innovative in a number of things, and some of the others are slowly catching on, and usually acting like they are the innovators.

Of course, Suarez isnt a good topic with some people, and the usual character assassination comments start to flow pretty quick when you bring him up. I guess hes just a little to radical and scary for some.

BlueTrain · August 22, 2015, 10:07 AM

I think the skill part is probably overrated, apart from what has already been mentioned. I read too many stories of grandmothers shooting intruders to believe that is an overrated factor. Perhaps the typical circumstances are not what we think they might be. It certainly won't be a walk and draw.

It might be 90% will. Most people don't have a killer instinct, perhaps not even criminals. (Criminals are people who break that law, not necessarily killers). In fact, most people are conditioned not to kill, at least not intentionally. And again, I have no idea how to discuss that point.

It is indeed hard to find believable and complete information about shootings, enough to base any decision on, if in fact it would be of any value. Any mention of the fact that in a shooing incident, people end up getting shot and precisely what that means, is scarce. Chic Gaylord's book from something like 60 years ago actually included photos of bullet wounds in corpses. That will make you think twice. It might even slow you down. And that's where this discussion started.

cjwils · August 22, 2015, 11:44 AM

I have never been in nor witnessed a gun fight, and have not studied them very much; but here is a thought: Does getting off the first shot cause your opponent to flinch, giving you more time to aim your second shot? If so, then speed with the first shot could be important, even if you miss.

FireForged · August 22, 2015, 03:33 PM

Quote:

is there anything that is detrimental to either speed or accuracy

not when it is actually consistent and it can be applied dynamically. Unfortunately, most people train in a vacuum without opposing forces at work against them.

BlueTrain · August 23, 2015, 05:10 AM

What I meant was, "Is there anything you're doing that is detrimental to speed and accuracy?" Something that is not essential or unavoidable. Chances are, you'll never know. I'm afraid I can't think of a good example at the moment.

Practice and training naturally have built-in limitations, chiefly for safety reasons. Ordinary ranges have limitations, as you are aware. Some do not permit rapid fire. Probably none allow any movement outside your lane. Even rifle training in the army has some of those limitations.

AK103K · August 23, 2015, 06:33 AM

If you cant practice realistically at your local range, theres always Airsoft, which is really a good idea anyway. It allows you to practice things you normally wouldnt with a live gun.

Just daily handling and dryfire practice goes a long way in keeping things "thoughtless".

The biggest detriment I can think of, would be overthinking and worrying about things that have no place in the loop, especially once things do start.

BlueTrain · August 26, 2015, 07:48 AM

Of all the thing there are to worry about, I'd say that ammunition selection is at the bottom of the list. At the top of the list would have to be familiarity with the weapon, here referring to a handgun. And I'm also referring to using it, not field-stripping or anything like that, although that's also something you need to be familiar with. It needs to be kept in good shape.

Over the years, I've decided that practicing with an empty gun or, better yet, with snap-caps, under fairly realistic conditions is a great help. It's something you can do on your own and for that matter, it's probably something you can only do on your own. The "realistic conditions" I'm referring to are the situations you are in day after day. Some things can be eye-openers compared with conditions at a range, unless the places you spend your time look a lot like a shooting range.

Another thing that is very valuable is finding out what works and what doesn't or at least what doesn't work well enough. If you carry concealed, making a draw from concealment can be problematic. It will be a compromise between concealment and ready accessibility. But everything's going to be a compromise at some point.

If you spend a lot of time in the woods, you still have the issue of ready accessibility but also security of your handgun. You don't want to lose your gun and you can't assume away these problems. Concealment might still be a consideration.

Eventually, you work out a solution that works for you and as you keep practicing, you get smoother and faster and it becomes second-nature. Soon you're able to draw your gun as fast and smooth as the way you pull out your wallet in the gun shop.

I have my own ideas, it goes without saying, and I'm happy with the way some things are working out, not so much with other things. I'm not doing anything that no one else is doing, though. I'm not that clever. Some very common things I've tried work very well for me to some extent and I've discovered that some very ordinary things I do, others can't stand.

It's probably a good idea to spend some time trying to figure out how to avoid getting into trouble in the first place.

August 21, 2015, 06:24 AM	#76
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Typically, discussions like this devolve into the merits of aimed fire versus point shooting. But those who promote the idea of point shooting never discount the value of aimed fire. The question might be at what distance a shooting incident most likely to occur and under what circumstances. I suppose we all have our own ideas about that. Hitting the target is essential. Speed is essential. Some might even say it's easier to teach someone to be a good point shooter than a good target shooter. I don't know. Perhaps the standards are different. Is there anything that isn't essential? Or is there anything that is detrimental to either speed or accuracy? There is also the whole issue of actually fighting someone, too, which is a great stumbling block and, frankly, I don't know how to discuss it. But Jeff Cooper wrote a thin book about the subject and I don't think he even mentioned guns. Another point is that sometimes it is said that formal target shooting does not help in combat shooting. I don't know if it does or not but Fairbairn believed it didn't and I think he knew what he was talking about. Yet many well known policemen and other law enforcement people as well as military people were successful competitive target shooters with handguns. People like Skeeter Skelton and Charles Askins. The latter was not shy about letting people know he was an experienced gunfighter. Not many people are referred to as gunfighters these days. I'm willing to give people more credit for devising their own self-defense methods that others might. Some writers who should have known even mentioned some by name who had done that, too, although it's possible it may have been easier in the past (when you didn't need to go to an indoor range to shoot). Anyway, who do you suppose taught Wyatt Earp all his tricks? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 22, 2015, 10:07 AM	#78
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I think the skill part is probably overrated, apart from what has already been mentioned. I read too many stories of grandmothers shooting intruders to believe that is an overrated factor. Perhaps the typical circumstances are not what we think they might be. It certainly won't be a walk and draw. It might be 90% will. Most people don't have a killer instinct, perhaps not even criminals. (Criminals are people who break that law, not necessarily killers). In fact, most people are conditioned not to kill, at least not intentionally. And again, I have no idea how to discuss that point. It is indeed hard to find believable and complete information about shootings, enough to base any decision on, if in fact it would be of any value. Any mention of the fact that in a shooing incident, people end up getting shot and precisely what that means, is scarce. Chic Gaylord's book from something like 60 years ago actually included photos of bullet wounds in corpses. That will make you think twice. It might even slow you down. And that's where this discussion started. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 23, 2015, 05:10 AM	#81
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	What I meant was, "Is there anything you're doing that is detrimental to speed and accuracy?" Something that is not essential or unavoidable. Chances are, you'll never know. I'm afraid I can't think of a good example at the moment. Practice and training naturally have built-in limitations, chiefly for safety reasons. Ordinary ranges have limitations, as you are aware. Some do not permit rapid fire. Probably none allow any movement outside your lane. Even rifle training in the army has some of those limitations. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 26, 2015, 07:48 AM	#83
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Of all the thing there are to worry about, I'd say that ammunition selection is at the bottom of the list. At the top of the list would have to be familiarity with the weapon, here referring to a handgun. And I'm also referring to using it, not field-stripping or anything like that, although that's also something you need to be familiar with. It needs to be kept in good shape. Over the years, I've decided that practicing with an empty gun or, better yet, with snap-caps, under fairly realistic conditions is a great help. It's something you can do on your own and for that matter, it's probably something you can only do on your own. The "realistic conditions" I'm referring to are the situations you are in day after day. Some things can be eye-openers compared with conditions at a range, unless the places you spend your time look a lot like a shooting range. Another thing that is very valuable is finding out what works and what doesn't or at least what doesn't work well enough. If you carry concealed, making a draw from concealment can be problematic. It will be a compromise between concealment and ready accessibility. But everything's going to be a compromise at some point. If you spend a lot of time in the woods, you still have the issue of ready accessibility but also security of your handgun. You don't want to lose your gun and you can't assume away these problems. Concealment might still be a consideration. Eventually, you work out a solution that works for you and as you keep practicing, you get smoother and faster and it becomes second-nature. Soon you're able to draw your gun as fast and smooth as the way you pull out your wallet in the gun shop. I have my own ideas, it goes without saying, and I'm happy with the way some things are working out, not so much with other things. I'm not doing anything that no one else is doing, though. I'm not that clever. Some very common things I've tried work very well for me to some extent and I've discovered that some very ordinary things I do, others can't stand. It's probably a good idea to spend some time trying to figure out how to avoid getting into trouble in the first place. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 22, 2015, 11:44 AM	#79
cjwils Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2010 Location: Washington state Posts: 401	I have never been in nor witnessed a gun fight, and have not studied them very much; but here is a thought: Does getting off the first shot cause your opponent to flinch, giving you more time to aim your second shot? If so, then speed with the first shot could be important, even if you miss.

August 23, 2015, 06:33 AM	#82
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	If you cant practice realistically at your local range, theres always Airsoft, which is really a good idea anyway. It allows you to practice things you normally wouldnt with a live gun. Just daily handling and dryfire practice goes a long way in keeping things "thoughtless". The biggest detriment I can think of, would be overthinking and worrying about things that have no place in the loop, especially once things do start.