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Old June 15, 2018, 01:36 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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Firsthand Account of 1986 FBI Miami Shootout by Ed Mireles

This is a really interesting account of the infamous FBI Miami shootout in which several FBI agents were killed. This podcast features the firsthand account of Ed Mireles, the FBI agent who ended the fight firing a shotgun one-handed despite being shot in the left arm and having a head wound. I’ve linked to Part 2, which discusses the actual gunfight but Part I has some background on Mireles and the investigation prior to this.

http://jerriwilliams.com/episode-119...ootout-part-2/

One interesting point demonstrating the importance of penetration that never gets mentioned despite the importance this case played in causing the FBI to pay attention to this: Mireles was hit in the upper forearm with a .223 and it literally blew his forearm apart; but the round deflected 90 degrees off his arm (instead of going into his chest in its original direction) and went skyward.

Another interesting point - the shot knocked Mireles to the ground causing a wound to his head that was spurting blood on to his face as he fought. Despite this, Mireles felt no pain and actually took a moment to figure out he had been shot.

About 2.5 hours; but worth a listen
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Old June 15, 2018, 02:25 PM   #2
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It's an interesting event that had a lot of repercussions, not all of them valid IMO. From what I read previously Mireles acted commendably. There is a made for tv version of the events that's not terrible that can be found on YouTube.

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Old June 15, 2018, 03:07 PM   #3
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This was not a weapons problem, but a tactics problem.

Truth be known, while some use the '86 Miami to dog on revolvers, there is NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING wrong with the guns... it was how they were used as well as the methods for use that caused this.
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Old June 15, 2018, 03:21 PM   #4
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I lived down there at that time
Glad that I always went shooting at Markham Park public range
The bad guys got their guns by ambushing target shooters informally shooting in the Everglades
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Old June 15, 2018, 04:10 PM   #5
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He just put out a book on it, as well. Definitely a good read.

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Originally Posted by Model12Win View Post
This was not a weapons problem, but a tactics problem.

Truth be known, while some use the '86 Miami to dog on revolvers, there is NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING wrong with the guns... it was how they were used as well as the methods for use that caused this.

Yea, McNeill’s blood and parts of his finger didn’t jam up his revolver to the point that he went for his shotgun... which resulted in his additional wound (also took him out of the fight). While it should be noted a S&W 459 was taken out of action... it had a .223 round go through the slide.

I didn’t listen to the podcast, but Mireles likely didn’t change his view from the book. He talked to the surviving members of the squad after the shooting... both McNeill and Hanlon said they felt most vulnerable when they were empty... and trying to reload. With a revolver... you have less capacity, and more involved reloading process. You also are taking your focus off the threat and putting it on the revolver. Sorry, but for as many people say they have Jerry Miculek revolver reloads... he is an outlier, not the norm. Even with moonclips, you can fumble a reload.

Likewise, a semi-auto has more capacity... so less frequent reloads. And even still, you can keep the gun pointed down range, swap magazines, and make the gun ready to fire, without taking your focus off the target. Training today usually does touch on that, but obviously wasn’t the case back then.

There are good lessons about firearms from 1986... especially keeping them in the holster and having a backup (if Dove had a backup, might have been very different; Risner instinctively went to his when his sidearm ran dry, but was too far away for a J-frame to be that effective). But the biggest lesson is s*** happens in ways you never consider. There were two separate agents, one with a M16 and another with an MP5, who went to the bathroom moments before the car was spotted. A third agent, who also had a shotgun, was talking to a bank manager who thought he was suspicious when he originally tried to talk to them... and called the FBI to confirm his identity, and asked he come back. Risner’s shotgun was in the back of another agent’s car (want to say Dove’s, but don’t hold me to that).
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Old June 15, 2018, 06:56 PM   #6
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He just put out a book on it, as well. Definitely a good read.




Yea, McNeill’s blood and parts of his finger didn’t jam up his revolver to the point that he went for his shotgun... which resulted in his additional wound (also took him out of the fight). While it should be noted a S&W 459 was taken out of action... it had a .223 round go through the slide.

I didn’t listen to the podcast, but Mireles likely didn’t change his view from the book. He talked to the surviving members of the squad after the shooting... both McNeill and Hanlon said they felt most vulnerable when they were empty... and trying to reload. With a revolver... you have less capacity, and more involved reloading process. You also are taking your focus off the threat and putting it on the revolver. Sorry, but for as many people say they have Jerry Miculek revolver reloads... he is an outlier, not the norm. Even with moonclips, you can fumble a reload.

Likewise, a semi-auto has more capacity... so less frequent reloads. And even still, you can keep the gun pointed down range, swap magazines, and make the gun ready to fire, without taking your focus off the target. Training today usually does touch on that, but obviously wasn’t the case back then.

There are good lessons about firearms from 1986... especially keeping them in the holster and having a backup (if Dove had a backup, might have been very different; Risner instinctively went to his when his sidearm ran dry, but was too far away for a J-frame to be that effective). But the biggest lesson is s*** happens in ways you never consider. There were two separate agents, one with a M16 and another with an MP5, who went to the bathroom moments before the car was spotted. A third agent, who also had a shotgun, was talking to a bank manager who thought he was suspicious when he originally tried to talk to them... and called the FBI to confirm his identity, and asked he come back. Risner’s shotgun was in the back of another agent’s car (want to say Dove’s, but don’t hold me to that).
I haven't read the book but I seem to remember there was another car with agents equipped with MP5s and M16s like you mentioned, but they weren't there for the pit manuever.

There's also something to be said about the fact that just because someone is shot, he or she isn't out of the fight. This was true for Mireles, but even more so for Platt. There's a reason the concept of shooting to stop the threat rather than just shooting came about.

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Old June 15, 2018, 07:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
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I haven't read the book but I seem to remember there was another car with agents equipped with MP5s and M16s like you mentioned, but they weren't there for the pit manuever.

That is correct... Mireles discusses it in the book (which I kind of paraphrased). He explains the situation in a very unique way.
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Old June 15, 2018, 07:52 PM   #8
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Mireles discusses this in the podcast, which has a ton of valuable lessons in it, but they had correctly guessed the next bank robbery vehicle and the day they would strike, so they were out in force surveilling. They picked up the vehicle but before more agents could get involved the robbers made them and they were faced with a choice of letting them get back to a more populated area or engaging immediately. They chose to engage immediately and the initial plans startedto fall apart pretty fast when the robbers refused to cooperate.

Mireles’s account highlights one thing I see where people feel the FBI standard of 12-18” in gel seems ridiculous given the typical human being; but when you see how the robbers were killed by Mireles because their round deflected off his arm, you start to appreciate why greater penetration might be relevant.
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Old June 15, 2018, 08:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Mireles discusses this in the podcast, which has a ton of valuable lessons in it, but they had correctly guessed the next bank robbery vehicle and the day they would strike, so they were out in force surveilling. They picked up the vehicle but before more agents could get involved the robbers made them and they were faced with a choice of letting them get back to a more populated area or engaging immediately. They chose to engage immediately and the initial plans startedto fall apart pretty fast when the robbers refused to cooperate.

Mireles’s account highlights one thing I see where people feel the FBI standard of 12-18” in gel seems ridiculous given the typical human being; but when you see how the robbers were killed by Mireles because their round deflected off his arm, you start to appreciate why greater penetration might be relevant.
That and the round that stopped short of Platt's heart.

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Old June 15, 2018, 09:13 PM   #10
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Whatever else you might say about Platt, he was in it to win it. He murdered most of the FBI agents, despite the fact that he’d been shot by at least four of them, sometimes multiple times. And he stayed in the fight until Mireles pulled his plug with the last round in his revolver.

Both Mireles and Platt have important lessons to teach about penetration as a factor of bullet selection and sheer willpower and mental attitude in turning a gunfight around.
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Old June 15, 2018, 09:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
They picked up the vehicle but before more agents could get involved the robbers made them and they were faced with a choice of letting them get back to a more populated area or engaging immediately. They chose to engage immediately and the initial plans startedto fall apart pretty fast when the robbers refused to cooperate.
Who was it that said, "No plan of battle survives first contact with the enemy"?

I would have said George Patton, but apparently it was General Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke, or Germany.
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Old June 15, 2018, 09:57 PM   #12
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both McNeill and Hanlon said they felt most vulnerable when they were empty... and trying to reload. With a revolver... you have less capacity, and more involved reloading process. You also are taking your focus off the threat and putting it on the revolver. Sorry, but for as many people say they have Jerry Miculek revolver reloads... he is an outlier, not the norm. Even with moonclips, you can fumble a reload.
9 out of 10 FBI agents are not gun guys. I carried a 357 for 20 years on duty and rarely felt "undergunned" But I also was and am a competitive shooter.

Quote:
(if Dove had a backup, might have been very different; Risner instinctively went to his when his sidearm ran dry, but was too far away for a J-frame to be that effective).
Sorry but no. The fight took place in an area defined by square feet. A j frame is effective as far as you are with one. Incidentally, That is what was used to finally end the fight.
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Old June 15, 2018, 10:01 PM   #13
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This was not a weapons problem, but a tactics problem.
Absolutely

Quote:
Truth be known, while some use the '86 Miami to dog on revolvers, there is NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING wrong with the guns... it was how they were used as well as the methods for use that caused this.
Not a thing wrong with a magnum revolver if you are proficient, have the right gear and use speed loaders.
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Old June 15, 2018, 10:20 PM   #14
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The fight took place in an area defined by square feet.
While it wasn't spread out over a large area, it wasn't all at very close range either.

Dove took his initial shots at a range of approximately 10 yards, and Orrantia's and Risner's car came to rest about 3 times that far from the Monte Carlo Platt and Matix were driving. As I understand it, Risner shot using his vehicle for cover at a range of approximately 30 yards from Platt. The official record does not indicate that he fired his backup gun.

Here's a layout of the shooting from the FBI's FOIA release. The car that Risner used for cover while shooting is the one at the lower left of the frame. This layout does not include Mireles' car which is out of the frame to the upper right.


Here's another layout of the shooting which is, unfortunately, upside down compared to the one above. In this the Mireles/Hanlon car is visible to the middle left and the Risner/Orrantia car is visible at the upper left. This layout is more crude and I wouldn't rely heavily on the scale.

Sorry about the poor quality on these, but that's how they were when I got them.

Quote:
A j frame is effective as far as you are with one. Incidentally, That is what was used to finally end the fight.
The final shots were fired by Mireles using his issue revolver which, according to the FBI documents on the shootout, was a 6 shot .357Magnum revolver. The document quality is pretty poor in the files I have from the FOIA release, but it's clear enough to tell that it was either a model 586 or 686. From both the capacity and the model number, it is safe to say that it was not a J frame. (Found another reference to the gun in the document which was clearer. The gun was a 686.)

Here's a screen capture from the pdf file. This is from the file labeled Part 1 of 4, Bufile: 62-121996



Risner's backup, according to the documents, was a Model 60.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Mireles_Revolver.JPG (20.5 KB, 408 views)
File Type: jpg Layout.JPG (106.3 KB, 401 views)
File Type: jpg Layout1.JPG (78.6 KB, 336 views)
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Old June 15, 2018, 10:41 PM   #15
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I stand corrected, but it is still doable with a revolver if you are.
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Old June 15, 2018, 10:46 PM   #16
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Yup. I wouldn't like to bet my life on a 30 yard shot with a J-Frame, but it's certainly not impossible to make a solid hit at that distance.
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Old June 15, 2018, 11:23 PM   #17
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Sorry but no. The fight took place in an area defined by square feet. A j frame is effective as far as you are with one. Incidentally, That is what was used to finally end the fight.

Actually, but yes...

Risner was shooting from a car that stopped across the street. He was not within the immediate area of the two suspects. He fired one round from his ankle gun, then preceded to reload his S&W. It was clearly written in Dr Anderson’s book on the shooting. The only time Risner got within feet of the suspects was when he got to Mireles... after the fact. Risner and Orrantia took some of the furthest shots of the entire shooting. If Risner felt he was going to be effective with his ankle gun at 30-35 yards... with moving targets under shade (not to mention agents in the same area)... I’m sure he would have fired more than just one round.

Square feet? Of course you would measure area in square feet. However, I’m guessing you mean a small number of square feet. How would you like to define it? Start of shooting... Mireles ran roughly 50 yards from where his car crashed into a tree to the location of the main group of cars. Risner’s shots were 30-35 yards. A Monte Carlo SS is roughly 17 feet (202 inches)... we will double that since Grogan’s car was behind it (Platt also circled around another vehicle that was parked where the cars stopped). With 90 feet (giving the benefit of doubt that Risner was at the closer edge of the estimated range) by 34 feet... you get 3,060 square feet. If you use the distance Mireles ran with Risner’s shot... and divide in half (more of a triangle than a square)... you pretty much double the area.

Being I shoot a 9mm J-frame, I am very aware of what it is capable of. Mine is great, and doing my part, pretty accurate. However... if you want to argue that it is easier to connect with one over a 4” duty pistol... you can argue that with someone else. Risner made that call when he switched back to reloading his empty sidearm. He also passed away, so I wouldn’t be the one to say he should have did something different. He was there... and made that call.

But my main reason for replying was to mention that the FBI didn’t issue J-frames as duty sidearms. Mireles did not shoot anyone with a J-frame... as he didn’t have one (had a larger framed, six-shot revolver... along with a shotgun). Hanlon did (used when his duty gun went MIA). Risner did. Manauzzi probably wished he had one (he was beside the suspects, without his revolver, when the cars stopped). McNeill probably had a similar wish when his revolver jammed up. Dove could have definitely used one to great effect. But that is how it went down.

Being I really don’t like to see people put bad info out there, figured I’d just link Mireles’ book... so people can get the info straight from the horse’s mouth. Unsure if he is still signing them as you buy, but he did mine.

https://edmireles.com/product/five-m...ed-the-bureau/

Probably some of the clearest information out there on what exactly happened... especially regarding the events that lead to those specific agents being present. Even the pictures in the front are pretty good. One of Mireles meeting Reagan. Another of Dove’s pistol with a hole in the slide... in the condition it was in when he was executed. But the best is the last one... which is a shot of the weapons that were in the hands of agents and suspects. They put a blue back ground, with a small orange box. The four guns in the orange are the suspect’s guns. Everything around it (seven shotguns, M16, MP5, metric ton of handguns), was what agents assigned to the surveillance had. Reading Mireles’ account... one agent not going to the bathroom at that specific time could have got a M16 or MP5 on scene. Could have been very different...
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Old June 16, 2018, 11:23 AM   #18
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"...several FBI agents were killed..." Two is not several.
"...but a tactics problem..." More of a lack of training and practice problem than tactics. The tools used make no difference if you don't have the skills to use 'em. Neither does the distance one shoots.
"...Mireles felt no pain and actually took a moment to..." Isn't unusual. Knew a guy who walked off the Dieppe beach with 8 bullet holes in him. He didn't know one of 'em caused a compound leg fracture until the MO on the ship asked him how he got off the beach.
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Old June 16, 2018, 03:01 PM   #19
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The '86 Miami FBI shooting incident was pretty current news when I was a younger cop. (My entry into LE occurred a few years prior to it.)

I attended my initial firearms training in the aftermath, in one of those older classes where the FBI participated in "local" LE firearms training by lending instructors for both classroom and range training. I received some interesting FBI materials on weapons and ammunition testing from them in that class, too.

My agency's FTU continued to discuss "lessons" gleaned from that incident for a few years. Like some other LE trainers have opined, since it hadn't involved us, it was easier to closely consider the tactics versus the equipment considerations. Nobody felt it wise to risk overlooking the ramifications of the experience and known preparation on the part of the suspects who had been involved, either.

It's probably a good time for the now 32 year old incident to be revisited and reconsidered by a younger group of cops. Hopefully, the events won't be colored by preconceptions of newer folks, or used to try and shoehorn the events into supporting or refuting anyone's existing bias.

It was what it was, and it was a horrific day for LE.

Then again, there's been no particular shortage of those, and they all deserve occasional review to try and help us learn to avoid the mistakes of earlier folks.
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