Texas School Shooting

[Metal god]

That is correct. However, generally speaking, those who are actually in the situation and must make split second decisions will be judged by what a reasonable person would think/do in their situation. If the circumstances make it reasonable for a person to interpret the actions of the shooter to mean that he/she still poses a deadly threat then lethal force would be justified.

Again leaving it up to interpretation , I think a jury from Berkly CA will have a very different opinion on what reasonable is then a jury in , lets say deep in the heart of Texas .

These are the types of things I'm conflicted on . I really am for states rights but at the same time I don't think there should be different standards of self defense based on the demographic of the population of the area you live . If we are all created equal and these are inalienable rights . Should they not have the same standards regardless of your location ?

[MTT TL]

If the arrest turns violent because of the violent resistance of the shooter, then the police are obviously justified in doing whatever it takes to effect the arrest.

That is something that has been coming up a lot in the last few years.

[44 AMP]

then the police are obviously justified in doing whatever it takes to effect the arrest.

while this is obviously true, there is a down side that we must balance it against. and that is where the police are not only prepared to do what it takes, but seem eager to use force, including deadly force, when it is NOT absolutely needed.

Now, here, the difference between hindsight and the view from those involved at the time can vary hugely. We see stories often where innocent people have been shot and killed because officers at the time, thought they were dangerous.
we can, and should only judge an officer's actions by what they knew, and believed at the time, BUT I do wonder if, today, the expectations don't lead to at shoot first, find out after mindset on the part of SOME people.

[Aguila Blanca]

Modern policing has, unfortunately, been corrupted by an institutional mindset that (a) they are entitled to demand instantaneous compliance, irrespective of whether or not their demands are clear, logical, or even legal; and (b) the most important thing is that they get to go home at the end of their shift.

[seeker_two]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Modern policing has, unfortunately, been corrupted by an institutional mindset that (a) they are entitled to demand instantaneous compliance, irrespective of whether or not their demands are clear, logical, or even legal; and (b) the most important thing is that they get to go home at the end of their shift.

This is the thinking that moved the taser's purpose from being a less-lethal option in a deadly force situation to a "compliance tool".

Can anyone explain how the "Don't Tase Me Bro" guy was a deadly threat to anyone?.....

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[MTT TL]

This is the thinking that moved the taser's purpose from being a less-lethal option in a deadly force situation to a "compliance tool".

I am not sure where you get the idea that Tasers were meant to be used in deadly force situations? While policies differ agency to agency in a deadly force scenario practically all police are going to use deadly force, just like anyone else.

Tasers were always meant to be compliance tools to avoid officer and suspect injuries. According to just about every study they do just that. Where they fall on the use of force continuum is still an open question, interpreted differently by different agencies. Just as suspects die using other techniques (pepper spray, baton, open hand) they die when Tased too.



Going back to the topic at hand "arrest him" sounds simple and easy but few things are never going to be simple and easy when dealing with someone that likely has just committed mass murder. Things really get complicated when someone without experience, equipment or training but equipped with deadly force is the first to arrive. In the world today I'd say this getting more and more likely as well.

It is a huge challenge for the person that has to deal with that situation.

[Blacktimberwolf]

You can say whatever you want, the only way to prevent school shootings is a gun law like in Germany or Italy or France.
People in those countrys also have guns, but we don't allow gunownership to criminals and brainsick persons.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Blacktimberwolf

People in those countrys also have guns, but we don't allow gunownership to criminals and brainsick persons.

The U.S. doesn't allow convicted felons (and individuals convicted of certain misdemeanors) to possess firearms, either. The law is only as effective as those enforcing it. The Texas church shooter had a disqualifying felony conviction -- the Air Force didn't bother reporting the conviction to NICS, so the guy was able to buy guns that he was legally barred from possessing.

The Parkland school shooter was in that program that the superintendent seems to be trying to pretend never existed, by which the statistics for minorities subjected to arrest for crimes were "improved" by the simple tactic of not recording the offenses as what they were. Surprise, the kids last name was Hispanic. It has now been ascertained that he WAS in this program. If the laws had been properly enforced on him some time before, there's a possibility the shooting could have been averted. (Or maybe not -- but we'll never know.)

What's the point of enacting strict laws if the aw-thaw-rih-tays are going to ignore them unless they feel like not ignoring them in a few, arbitrarily selected cases?

[Metal god]

The Parkland school shooter was in that program that the superintendent seems to be trying to pretend never existed,statistics for minorities subjected to arrest for crimes were "improved" by the simple tactic of not recording the offenses as what they were.

What program are speaking of . I've not been following the case that close any more ? Was there some off the books manipulation with crime statistics that resulted in the shooters past crimes or convictions not be reported to the NICS system ?

[DaleA]

The program they are referring to might be the 'Promise' program. There's some info about it and Nicholas Cruz here:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...507-story.html

[MTT TL]

The Parkland school shooter was in that program that the superintendent seems to be trying to pretend never existed, by which the statistics for minorities subjected to arrest for crimes were "improved" by the simple tactic of not recording the offenses as what they were. Surprise, the kids last name was Hispanic. It has now been ascertained that he WAS in this program. If the laws had been properly enforced on him some time before, there's a possibility the shooting could have been averted. (Or maybe not -- but we'll never know.)

I have never heard of this. What is it called? also the shooter was not Hispanic he was adopted.

[Aguila Blanca]

DaleA is correct, the program is the Promise program.

I didn't say Cruz was Hispanic, I said he has a Hispanic name. It doesn't matter that Cruz was adopted. What matters is that his last name is Cruz. You have to understand that the social justice warriors who seek out opportunities to claim discrimination only look at things like last name to claim that the person is a member of a minority. Years ago one of the major voices in the "English First" movement (I think it was Linda Chavez, but not certain) was very openly incensed because her kids -- who were raised speaking English at home -- were enrolled in classes for non-English speaking students based on nothing but the last name.

The Promise program came into being because the social justice warriors decided that minorities were being arrested too often for criminal offenses in Broward County schools. The solution, of course, wasn't what normal people would do: try to intervene to correct the criminal behavior. The solution was to reclassify the crimes as lower-grade or non-criminal offenses. That allowed the school district to proudly claim massive improvements. The problem is, the improvements were only in the statistics, on paper. The behavioral problems were the same.

The infamous school resource officer was deep in the middle of this program. One of the reasons he was so popular and received so many awards was that he was very adept at NOT arresting criminals for committing crimes.

[Metal god]

Thanks Dale

However, “while our records indicate that Cruz underwent an intake interview/process at Pine Ridge on November 26, 2013, it does not appear that Cruz completed the recommended three-day assignment/placement,” Clark said.
Clark said the school district still was reviewing records to find out why Cruz was referred to the Promise program but didn’t complete it.

On the whole I'm not apposed to a program like that if it's not race based . I believe I went through something like that in Jr high . I was clearly on a path to no good . I had not broke any laws but was ditching a lot , getting in fights etc . Instead of suspending me I was forced to go to counseling and after school detentions . I can't say that it did or didn't work only that I completed what was asked of me .

The fact he was referred to a program as described in the article for me is not the issue . It's that it appears he did not complete it or maybe even go at all except for the interview . I'd like to understand more about the process and if the students get and ultimatum , complete the program or else type of thing .

[MTT TL]

The solution, of course, wasn't what normal people would do: try to intervene to correct the criminal behavior. The solution was to reclassify the crimes as lower-grade or non-criminal offenses. That allowed the school district to proudly claim massive improvements. The problem is, the improvements were only in the statistics, on paper. The behavioral problems were the same.

What I read about it says it is a diversion program for misdemeanors. You are saying it is not? I'd be interested in reading more on that. If the shooter in Florida was a felon that would have prevented him from a retail sale of rifle.

[thallub]

Read the four page list of Cruz's infractions.

The superintendent of Broward county schools is Robert Runcie. Runcie worked for the Chicago school system but was let go.

The PROMISE program was backed by President Obama and Holder, his attorney general. There is a collaborative agreement with law enforcement, the school district, prosecutors, etc. Broward county was awarded 54 million dollars of federal money for participating in the "Race To The Top" program.

PROMISE gave school administrators the power to decide whether infractions were deemed worthy of involving the policy rather than following guidelines that were previously in place. PROMISE stands for 'Preventing Recidivism through Opportunities, Mentoring, Intervention, Support, and Education.'

The program was praised by the Obama administration and the school district was awarded $54 million in grants from the $4 billion 'Race to the Top' initiative.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi..._students.html

Yep, the Broward county sheriff's 17 year old son got a good deal after assaulting a younger boy.

In mid-February of 2014, two 17-year-old Marjory Stoneman Douglas students assaulted a 14-year-old baseball player near the high school stadium. They kicked the boy, a police report said, held him to the ground and simulated a sexual assault through the teen's clothing with a baseball bat.

One of the assailants was Broward Sheriff Scott Israel's son, Brett Israel, according to the incident report.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...#storylink=cpy

[Metal god]

The devil is in the details really . This type of program if ran with no political motivations can help kids a lot . In my case if I had been suspended or any other type of punishment that caused me to miss school . I would have been left behind never to catch up .

Remember these are likely kids that don't want to be in school or don't have the drive to do well in school for what ever reason . If you remove them from the school for a given time , then reintroduce them back into that same school . They are now behind the rest of the class . So you now have a kid that does not work hard at there schooling that now needs to work even harder then before just to catch up . Depending on there support system that task can now be unreachable . I speak from experience here , I'm not going to get into my specifics but trust me I know of what I speak .

It becomes what appears to the kid an impossible undertaking so they don't even try anymore . I'll admit in my case it was my unwillingness to try my hardest likely because I just didn't care . Remember I'm 13 & 14 years old , not really having a grasp on what's best for my future . This ultimately results in my dropping out of school . I was truly lucky my family had there own business and shortly after dropping out I was working 40yrs a week . If I had not had that outlet who knows what would have happened . Having a job where others counted on me to further there's taught me maybe more then any schooling at the time could have . I later became a single father and that changed me for the better even more .

My over all point here is that I understand the idea of that type of program , but they only work if 1) the school or whom ever follows through with the kid , 2) the kid puts in the work which in some cases means #1 needs to be pushed hard .

Anyways if done "right" ( and I don't know what that is exactly ) those types of programs can help IMHO .

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

What I read about it says it is a diversion program for misdemeanors. You are saying it is not? I'd be interested in reading more on that. If the shooter in Florida was a felon that would have prevented him from a retail sale of rifle.

In order for a program to apply to misdemeanors, it is first necessary that the offenses be classified as misdemeanors. Articles I've read (more than one) said that a major aspect of this program was to down-grade the classification of serious offenses to less serious charges. But they also declassified criminal misdemeanor offenses into non-criminal issues so they didn't have to be referred to the criminal justice system at all.

Sorry, at this point I can't provide many links. This all came out within a week or two after the shooting, so that was over three months ago. Here's one:

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...ent_lives.html

One particular motivation behind programs like Broward County's was the pressure from multiple sources to reduce the statistical disparity between black and Hispanic student arrests on one hand and white and Asian student arrests on the other. Benzing writes, for instance, how a Denver organization called "Padres & Jóvenes Unidos" successfully advocated for a program like Broward's to help achieve "racial and education equity" in Denver schools.

By virtue of his name alone, Nikolas de Jesús Cruz, the adopted son of Lynda and Roger Cruz, became a statistical Hispanic. As such, authorities at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland had every reason not to report his troubling and likely criminal behavior to the police.

Of course, there's a fundamental problem with any program that achieves improvements not by improving anything, but by fudging the numbers. It starts by reducing the classification of minor incidents. The program "demonstrates" improvement. Now the pressure is on to continue improving. Since the improvements were only accomplished by downgrading minor incidents, the next year they have to downgrade somewhat more serious incidents in order to maintain the illusion of continued improvement. And the next year they have to downgrade even more serious incidents ... and so it goes, until the whole house of cards collapses because it was an unsustainable concept from the outset.

This exact progression was discussed in some of the articles I read at the time.

[Metal god]

A doctor friend of mine and I were talking about scewed statistics and he brought up one he’s dealing with in his practice. He says the insurance companies have statistics of every doctor in what they diagnose , how they treat , how much they treat etc . All that info is compiled and broke down into state and local averages .

So lets say he treats a patient for problem x 6 times but the state average is 3 times . He’ll get a call asking to explain why and that he needs to get his treatments for that condition down to the average. When he asked if they called the doctors that had below the averge treatments he was told no only the doctors that were above the average . He then tried to explain to them what they were doing by not asking the doctors with lower amount of treatments to treat more to get to the state average . They were ultimately forcing the average down by only asking the doctors that treat there patients more for the same problem to reduce the amout of treatments they do . By doing so you will eventually end up at zero he tried to explain but the rep could not or would not understand what he was saying .

We can go on and on about how people manipulate stats . Like the semi recent one to change the definition of mass shooting from 4 or more people killed in one incident to now only 3 is needed to be killed to qualify as a mass shooting . Then the anti’s show these stats how mass shooting are on the rise . I’d like to know statistically how many more “official” mass shooting we have now that number had changed .

[MTT TL]

Near as I can tell the only felonies that Cruz could have been charged with were cyber stalking and stealing mail. Cyber stalking is incredibly difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Theft of mail is a Federal crime and almost never prosecuted.

His only on campus foray in to the PROMISE program was for vandalism. This is nearly always a misdemeanor.

The man had dozens of warning signs, the sheriff's department failed, the FBI failed, the school failed even his victims prior to the shooting failed by not prosecuting him or bearing witness for his other crimes.

Cruz was clearly warming up to shooting people once he started his cruelty to animals and shooting them for no reason. This is a classic step. A lot of failure to act in that case.

Blaming the school solely seems a bit over the top. There is plenty of failure to go around. I however see nothing legally that could have been done, other than prosecuting him for his various crimes, most of which took place off campus and then sending him to jail. From jail it would have been much more difficult to commit mass murder.

[Blacktimberwolf]

Yes, that's your problem, try to get a gun in Germany and you can be sure they will notice your crime record and your health. We had only two shootings with legal guns in twenty years. You have every few weeks a shooting. The only thing your Trump says is : "we feel with the victims", that don't help anything.

[rickyrick]

We have shootings every day of every hour, we just don’t have police on every corner like other “free” countries have. We have laws against criminals and the mentally ill getting guns.
There’s no one around to stop it, only to investigate in most cases. Heck, the police where I live have completely stopped enforcement of traffic laws. I haven’t seen a patrol car in a couple of weeks and I live in the city.
They can’t be there when a criminal passes a gun to another criminal.

[5whiskey]

Schools try their darndest to under-report crime, in any circumstance. This has been going on for decades. The Clery act of 1986 required that all colleges have to release a public report of campus crime data. NO college wants to have high crime statistics, so there is immense pressure by many college administrations to attempt to fudge the statistics. I have personally seen an effort to influence a reported theft victim into believing that maybe they just lost the item, despite their insistence that they knew the item was stolen. Same thing with sexual assaults and other offenses.

Heck, police departments do it too to skew the UCR the FBI puts out. I know for a fact that some agencies have, in time past, told homeowners that there was no hope for recovering their property since they didn't have a list of serial numbers (which is true). Said agency would allow officers to continue to tell homeowners that filing a police report is useless since recovering the property is impossible. When victims insisted on a report, they were at times given a damage to property report for the broken window or door instead of a B&E report. It caught up with the agency when a lot of homeowner's insurance claims were denied because the police reports didn't indicate that there was a burglary. That game worked ok for poor renters in the "not good" part of town that didn't have any kind of homeowners or renters insurance... but it caught up when they started doing that with everyone.

While I have a knee-jerk reaction against skewing statistics for racial reasons at schools, it's been done many times before for a variety of other reasons. I would be okay with something like the PROMISE program, but I think the kids need to get that criminal charge in the beginning and then have to complete the program to get it expunged. That's how you get someone to put in the work to actually improve themselves... offer hope to resolve the issue if they actually change behavior, not just give it up front and hope they change the behavior (news flash... they won't).

[Metal god]

You can't compare one countries gun laws to another and think you're comparing apples to apples . The laws start with the/a constitution . Unless country A has the same constitution as country B . Comparing any of each others laws is moot . There are to many other neonist parts of the laws that give right to other parts that you can't compare one country to another . In the US we don't need a permit or permission to own a gun because we have the RKBA . We don't have to show why we should be able to own a gun . The burden is on the government to show why we can't . I don't but am guessing in Germany the people have to ask to own a gun first then is granted permission to do so ????

If that's accurate are two gun laws come from two completely different places .

[MTT TL]

Heck, police departments do it too to skew the UCR the FBI puts out. I know for a fact that some agencies have, in time past, told homeowners that there was no hope for recovering their property since they didn't have a list of serial numbers (which is true). Said agency would allow officers to continue to tell homeowners that filing a police report is useless since recovering the property is impossible. When victims insisted on a report, they were at times given a damage to property report for the broken window or door instead of a B&E report. It caught up with the agency when a lot of homeowner's insurance claims were denied because the police reports didn't indicate that there was a burglary. That game worked ok for poor renters in the "not good" part of town that didn't have any kind of homeowners or renters insurance... but it caught up when they started doing that with everyone.

Never heard of such a thing. So um, how do these people get paid on their insurance without a police report or one that is done improperly and not show the stolen items? Eh, never mind this sounds like rumor and innuendo to me.

Where did we get off on a tangent of colleges and other places? I am just curious about this "program" that under reports crimes committed by students at Parkland; If such a program does in fact exist. That would imply some culpability.

Also I did notice that two of the security monitors from the Florida school were suspended yesterday including the one that called the SRO to let him know the shooter was in campus. That is a curious turn of events.

[5whiskey]

Never heard of such a thing. So um, how do these people get paid on their insurance without a police report or one that is done improperly and not show the stolen items? Eh, never mind this sounds like rumor and innuendo to me.

It is not. And reading comprehension would also answer your insurance question. The answer is... insurance claims were denied! That's how it all came out.