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Old November 11, 2018, 04:53 PM   #51
TunnelRat
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If there is a chance where firing into a contact range target would damage my gun and possibly injure me also, I would not want to attempt it.
Again, I'd be interested in seeing the percentage of firearms that were rendered inoperable by being discharged up against a human target or even moreso that hurt the shooter himself. I don't think forming a perfect seal that results in a catastrophic failure is that common, and I saw your post where you admit as much. Certainly could cause issues with the pistol in terms of cycling. As for it being ruined, I can see the concern about that in terms of surviving the fight, but if I have to do that to survive I'm a bit stuck. As for as the monetary value of it, I will gladly trade $500 for my life. Even if the pistol does malfunction don't forget that at least it can be used as an impact weapon of its own.

This is in part why retention positions for shooting are taught. Even all that still, if someone is beating or stabbing me to death and my options are discharge the pistol in my hand or not discharge the pistol in my hand and instead try to get to my knife, I think I still discharge the pistol and then go to the knife if a malfunction results. Again, this isn't me ignoring the value of contact weapons, but I'm not switching to the knife on a whim. Part of that is my own lack of training with edged weapons. If you have such training, that certainly changes up the scenario.

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Old November 11, 2018, 05:10 PM   #52
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I added some context Jerry. I don't think they are off in their teaching in this area.
thank you for the clarification.
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Old November 11, 2018, 05:14 PM   #53
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if someone is beating or stabbing me to death and my options are discharge the pistol in my hand or not discharge the pistol in my hand and instead try to get to my knife,
in 1995 I was involved in a situation... my off hand/arm/wrist received some cuts defending against the assault while my gun hand drew and fired my handgun. the bad guy lived and got 7 years. I got several stitches and a week off work.
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Old November 11, 2018, 08:17 PM   #54
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shurshot, don't confuse German soldiers of WW II with the Gestapo or even the SS. The soldiers were in no way causal to the Holocaust.

Last I heard, a low level of vandalism does not warrant a death sentence. To condone such could easily bring one's rationality into question.
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Old November 11, 2018, 08:30 PM   #55
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Oh, so the non SS and Gestapo Germans were not involved in the holocaust, so that makes them "ok"??? Just "good guys", misguided and fighting for world domination on the wrong team without realizing it? They must have slaughtered Allied troops and bombed civilians too, without realizing how bad that was. My mistake. And, ball peen hammers are ok for prisoners of war to possess and not considered a deadly weapon? Again, my mistake. Thanks for educating me in rational thinking.

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Old November 11, 2018, 08:54 PM   #56
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"I was there and as I walked down through the long lines of vehicles I noted that some of the drivers were lifting the hoods on their vehicles. I followed this up and saw one big burly Kraut had a ballpean (sic) hammer in his hand and he was going, quite systematically, from vehicle to vehicle and smashing the distributor caps after he lifted the hoods.
I followed him down the line, keeping one row of vehicles between myself and this scoundrel and right after he raised a hood and drew back to smash the distributor I shot him right through the kidneys with the old .45 Pachmayr." (Askins).

Askins MUST have been afraid as he used caution approaching the German, keeping a vehicle between them. Perhaps he didn't want his skull carved in if the German rushed him or spun and threw the hammer. One car width isn't that far away, well under 7 yards. It also might have went down quite differently than how he described it. He might have been very afraid, yet ego wouldn't allow him to describe the scenario more truthfully in later years. Who knows, not one of us were there to witness firsthand. This is from text sskins wrote. Given the tense situation at the moment and War time atrocities and stresses, I'm not passing judgment on Askins as others readily have, as I wasn't there in his shoes. We all may have handled things differently. Perhaps he WAS a war criminal. It's also possible the incident never even happened. I just have difficulty taking ANY writer 100% seriously, whether it's ones description of himself being a cold blooded gunman, or shooting an elk on the run at 400 yards with a .44 Magnum, or a CNN article. Writers get paid for writing. Editors also have been known to heavily "edit" stories to make them more dramatic or to their personal agenda. Speaking from experience, once you sign the contract and cash the check, THEY own the story. And they can and DO change whatever they want.

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Old November 11, 2018, 09:01 PM   #57
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Askins MUST have been afraid as he used caution approaching the German, keeping a vehicle between them.
It's hard to attribute motive, but Askins gives no suggestion that he was afraid. Based on the retelling, it seems most likely that he kept the vehicles between the two of them so the German wouldn't see him and stop what he was doing.

But it doesn't even really matter. The facts are that he was a safe distance away when he shot and that makes it murder.
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One car width isn't that far away, well under 7 yards.
He didn't say "one car width" he said "line of vehicles. Unless the vehicles were parked in rows, nose to tail with no space between them to drive, there would have been more than just one "car width". But since the German didn't even know he was there it doesn't really matter. He shot the German from a safe distance when the German was totally unaware of his presence and therefore posed no threat.
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...I wasn't there in his shoes.
No, but he was and we can read what he recounted and judge from that.
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I just have difficulty taking ANY writer 100% seriously...
Ahh, the old Racehorse Haynes approach...

1. My client's dog doesn't bite.
2. My client keeps his dog locked up so it can't bite people.
3. I don't believe you really got bitten.
3. My client doesn't have a dog.

1. Askins was a good guy because the German was a "bad guy".
2. Askins was a good guy because he was a U.S. soldier.
3. Askins was good guy based on the details of his account.
4. Askins was a good guy because his account might be inaccurate and the whole thing may not have even happened.
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Oh, so the non SS and Gestapo Germans were not involved in the holocaust, so that makes them "ok"??? Just "good guys", misguided and fighting for world domination on the wrong team without realizing it? They must have slaughtered Allied troops and bombed civilians too, without realizing how bad that was. My mistake. And, ball peen hammers are ok for prisoners of war to possess and not considered a deadly weapon? Again, my mistake. Thanks for educating me in rational thinking.
1. Shooting a POW is murder, regardless of whether they're "good guys" or "bad guys".

2. Killing troops on the opposing side is not grounds for execution and certainly does not justify murdering the person. Both sides killed troops on the other side and both sides bombed civilian targets.

3. This idea that one side are the "good guys" and the other side are the "bad guys" is simplistic to the point of being childish. It is almost inevitably true that each side considers themselves the "good guys" and during the era before the information age it was also pretty common for the rank and file soldiers to be unaware of the realities of what their government's goals might be. It is certainly incorrect to assume that German soldiers were generally aware of the atrocities being perpetrated by their government or of the details of what their government was up to. From the memoirs I have read, it was quite common for them to be under the impression that they were "unifying Europe" and to even be somewhat confused about why there was opposition to what seemed to them to be obviously constructive goals.

4. A contact weapon poses no threat to anyone if the person who has it is too far away to use it. A contact weapon poses no threat to anyone unless the person who has it is threatening someone with it.

But all of that is only borderline relevant because the reality is pretty simple.

I don't know where you got your unorthodox ideas about when it's ok to shoot a POW, but they are incorrect and no amount of ranting or sarcasm is going to change the facts.

The bottom line is that shooting a POW from a safe distance, when the man poses no threat to anyone, is murder. As if that weren't already blatantly obvious, you've gotten it straight from the mouth sof persons who have served in the U.S. military.
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Old November 11, 2018, 09:03 PM   #58
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So if a man is 7 yards away with a hammer, a larger, stronger man, that's a safe distance? Is that what you wrote?

"4. A contact weapon poses no threat to anyone if the person who has it is too far away to use it. A contact weapon poses no threat to anyone unless the person who has it is threatening someone with it."

I disagree. Ever see Surviving Edged Weapons, the 80's LEO film? Old, but well worth viewing. Knife or blunt instrument... 21 feet isn't "too far away to use it". Quite the contrary. And remember, often, the weapon is not obviously a "weapon", hidden from view or not held in a threatening manner... until it is deployed as such. To believe otherwise is either naive or "childish".

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Old November 11, 2018, 09:10 PM   #59
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So if a man is 7 yards away with a hammer, a larger, stronger man, that's a safe distance? Is that what you wrote?

"4. A contact weapon poses no threat to anyone if the person who has it is too far away to use it. A contact weapon poses no threat to anyone unless the person who has it is threatening someone with it."

I disagree. Ever see Surviving Edged Weapons, the 80's LEO film? Old, but well worth viewing. Knife or blunt instrument... 21 feet isn't "too far away to use it". Quite the contrary. And remember, often, the weapon is not obviously a "weapon", hidden from view or not held in a threatening manner... until it is deployed as such.
You're being ridiculous.

1. You know nothing about the relative size and strength of Askins and the POW that would allow you to state with any accuracy that the POW was larger and stronger.

2. You don't know that the two were 7 yards apart.

3. The hammer is not a weapon until there is some obvious intent to use it as a weapon and there is the means to do so. Otherwise people could go around shooting any roofers or carpenters they see.

But that's not what makes your arguments ridiculous.

On the one hand you're parsing the account for detailed information and claiming with a certainty just how far they were apart, who was larger, who was stronger, what the German's war history was, etc., and on the other hand you're suggesting that the whole account could be inaccurate and may not have even happened because you don't trust writers.

You need to pick one approach or the other if you want to be taken seriously--or, alternatively, you could just admit that your only goal is to win the argument and that the facts don't really matter to you at all.
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Old November 11, 2018, 09:22 PM   #60
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Ignore my questions and then launch a personal attack? And I'm ridiculous? I expected more from you John.
I have seen pictures of Askins, he wasn't very big. He described the German as big and burly. He kept a vehicle between them. Did you even read what he wrote?? His words, not mine.

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Old November 11, 2018, 09:24 PM   #61
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1. Ok, I have just taken the time to look through all the pictures in his autobiography. Based on cursory comparisons, Askins appears to be taller than, or as tall as the other men in featured in the pictures. There does not seem to be any merit to your claim that "he wasn't very big". But that's not really relevant. Askins doesn't say the German was bigger or stronger than himself--the adjectives "big, burly" (there was no mention of strength whatsoever) were provided without any information that would allow comparison. And, again, we're getting back to this idea that you are working hard to parse the account for every possible bit of information that might support your argument while at the same time making the point that it could be inaccurate and maybe none of it even happened. Which is a ridiculous argument.

2. I've answered your arguments with far more care than they deserve based on merit.

3. Correctly pointing out that you are BEING ridiculous in your arguments is not saying that you ARE ridiculous. It is not a personal attack, it is an accurate critique of your deportment in this debate.
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Old November 11, 2018, 09:31 PM   #62
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I will point out that your argument is highly subjective and condescending, if not antagonistic. You pick and choose what you want to address and ignore the points you cannot or will not answer.

"You need to pick one approach or the other if you want to be taken seriously--or, alternatively, you could just admit that your only goal is to win the argument and that the facts don't really matter to you at all."

Seriously? Did you carefully read what I wrote, or just immediately jump into your socratic rebuttal? Pointless for me to continue. I usely enjoy reading your perspective, , unless you are Gaslighting.

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Old November 11, 2018, 09:40 PM   #63
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You pick and choose what you want to address and ignore the points you cannot or will not answer.
Tell me which of your points you believe I have not addressed and I will respond.
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Seriously? Did you carefully read what I wrote...
Yes. And yes.
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I usely enjoy reading your perspective.
Thank you. However, I should point out that my perspective is the same as it always has been when it comes to shooting people who pose no threat.
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Old November 11, 2018, 10:18 PM   #64
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Did some more reading earlier. Not gonna judge Askins if he did wrong hes going to find his reckoning with the man upstairs. But hammer thing remind me of discussion at work I had long time ago started as a joke but with me holding a hammer by the head with the handle pointing downward and saying this is the only way a hammer can be carried and transported in a non aggressive manner.

No matter in peacetime or combat if someone is holding a hammer in a posture of striking and he is not working on something or have no other reason to be holding it that way I am gonna be watching someone like that really closely. Especially when already doing something illegal or suspicious. Now swing it at someone, or advance on someone with that thing in a swinging posture especially after being verbally confronted might just make em candidate for being ventilated. Stupid games win stupid prizes and that prize is a personally signed Darwin award. Plenty of folk have been killed by hammers, screwdrivers, hatchets and such and any officer of the law would attest to them being deadly weapons or at least potentially deadly weapons. Why a POW had a hammer is now my main question. I am sure if someone at Gitmo was found with a hammer anywhere besides a heavily guarded shop class he is going to be smacked on the noggin none too gently with the butt of a M4 and dragged off to interrogation about why and where he got the hammer.

As for the German caught smashing up trucks with the hammer lets say Askins was telling the truth and he was probably alone dealing with a group of highly excitable and dangerous inmates. What is he gonna do to get them to stop, say "ah excuse me chaps, I think you should lay off on that, eh?" Hammer can be thrown too. I saw results of beer bottle being thrown at someone in a bar fight once. Guy's head was busted up real bad and he was down out cold when ambulance got to the scene. Thing was he tried to break up fight and they turned on him. Not gonna condone killing of POWs but inmates about to take over the asylum at least there is a potential? Gotta put a foot down and restore order. Im going to contribute more to this discussion but Beer O Clock is now well past and I am wondering for the past minutes why my monitor is rotating and then turning my head sideways to try and follow it. Gonna put some cold water on my face and try to get some sleep before I think I can sing better than Gene Autry.
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Old November 11, 2018, 11:30 PM   #65
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...he is not working on something...
This person was obviously working on something and Askins could clearly tell that was what was going on based on his account.
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I am sure if someone at Gitmo was found with a hammer anywhere besides a heavily guarded shop class he is going to be smacked on the noggin none too gently with the butt of a M4 and dragged off to interrogation about why and where he got the hammer.
The German POWs were actually being allowed to drive vehicles, this wasn't the remotely the same situation as a maximum security detention center.
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... lets say Askins was telling the truth and he was probably alone dealing with a group of highly excitable and dangerous inmates.
"Highly excitable and dangerous inmates" being allowed to pilot multi-ton deadly weapons? I would have to say that sounds more creative than accurate.

His account gives no indications at all that he was concerned for his own safety. After shooting the man from cover, he simply walked away from a number of these "highly excitable and dangerous inmates" who were still "armed" with the hammer--and, I suppose, the vehicles that they had just driven into the area.
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Old Yesterday, 12:15 AM   #66
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I've read a lot of things that I never expected to see.

No degreed professionals have posted here regarding askins and his character. I'm qualified to make a few statements.

Askins murdered the soldier. The conditions and circumstances would be considered aggravating by the courts. He backshot a prisoner in the kidneys, intending a lingering and painful death, when he was fully capable of a headshot. He did that for no purpose than to stop the guy from damaging captured equipment. It must be noted that he mentions nothing significant about the guy, but he described his own gun.

Nothing changes what he did, nothing justifies it, no number of excuses history makes can change that it was wrong.

Those few words are enough to know a lot. He didn't just kill.

Look at the comments about race. Killing whites, including Nazis and criminals was recorded, but not minorities?

Askins demonstrated numerous signs of sociopathic mental illness. He demonstrated signs of psychosis. There is plenty of evidence in his writings. He was used as a killer, assassin by his superior officers. He relished killing, men, women, animals, no difference.



Don't bother saying that lots of people do the same thing. Many of those same people are also sociopathic,many are genuinely psychotic as well.

I am truly glad that I've never met him or anyone that fits his qualifications.
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Old Yesterday, 05:34 AM   #67
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The English had the Prisoners of War, sused out. I was born in 1935, so many huge American Soldiers, with shiny big boots, populated my Dad's Pub. I walked amongst them. Till one day, they all were gone.

We had Italian Prisoners of War, in coveralls, with POW on the back. They worked on farms, were allowed to roam more or less free.

One who spoke good English, an Officer? Told my Dad why they surrendered.
"Bill, we Italians are Lovers, not Fighters," said in jest? Who knows.
Some stayed after the War.

But the Germans were not allowed to leave the Camp, armed guards kept them in. Because they were Fighters! And would most likely head home if they escaped.

When I was in Germany, for my National Service, 2 years. I visited a Concentration Camp "Bielefeld" it had ovens were bodies were burned.
Something I saw that only turned my guts later.

The locking latches on the ovens were cast metal. Polished by the constant opening and closing.
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Old Yesterday, 07:09 AM   #68
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Brit, Thank you for your perspective. It adds a dose of cold, harsh reality to a thread where some are attempting to paint the captured Germans as if they were a bunch of naive and misguided, peace loving Boyscouts. Quite the contrary. Whether Askins was morally right or wrong in this scenario, those that served under the Swastika and supported the widespread atrocities of that era deserved no excuses or justification (or opportunity to escape, hinder Allied efforts and continue killing). It is naive to assume that the rank and file German soldiers had NO knowledge of the slaughterhouses and racist philosophy / agenda in Germany. "I was just following orders", or "I didn't know", is simply plausible deniability to otherwise horrific and evil actions of the Third Reich. To believe otherwise is simply ignorant.

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Old Yesterday, 07:20 AM   #69
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I'm not a moderator,but if I may...
The OP's question was about whether a foe can be too close to shoot.

IMO, Askins character perhaps merited some discussion,but that has been done.
Views have been expressed.I learned something,myself.

The argument has become a non productive game of competitive urination.

Positions are entrenched,and no one is changing anyone's mind.

Rules of war have been clarified. War is hell. We all have opinions,we all have armpits. Not everyone wants to experience my opinion or my armpit.

I have my opinions about collateral damage,Dresden,Nagasaki,Hiroshima,the Sand Creek Massacre,the Rape of Nanking...Mi Lai.. Death March to Bataan,Rwanda...And Rules of Engagement vs our troops in harms way...Its good,for myself ,to know my position..

I don't expect anyone to agree with me. And,you may disagree with me.

At my age,competitive urination is no longer my forte.

I'm far more concerned about a corrupted election and the consequences right now.

Which is as off topic as Askins character and the moral and legal implications of shooting POW's.

If I had a mountain lion drop on my neck or an MMA fighter pounding me on the ground,either a knife or a gun might be very useful. Either would require me to have some control of my knife or gun hand/arm. I fail to see how pulling from a holster,and pulling a trigger while pointed in a general direction is more difficult under stress than pulling a knife,perhaps opening a folder,and stabbing or slashing. Make your choice,I'll make mine.

Muzzle blast of a contact shot produces more trauma. A snubbie can hit just fine at 10 or 15 yds.

To argue more would be just boring
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Old Yesterday, 07:48 AM   #70
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HiBC, you are correct Sir, on both accounts (several of us got off topic and snubbies are fine). Thanks for the redirect.
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Old Yesterday, 12:08 PM   #71
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Is there such a thing as "too close" ?
Too close for what?

To draw?

To fire?


I believe if they are as close as the OP is saying they are too close to draw. You are better off with H2H and disarming them. That is contingent on having the skills to do that.
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Old Yesterday, 01:59 PM   #72
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Charlie Askins described the "belly gun" as one where:
"You press it against your opponent's belly and pull the trigger."
He was active in a different time and place, now I wonder if his definition is still acceptable, and if there is such a thing as "Too Close".
I don't know what Charles Askins' alleged description of a "belly gun" might have to do with the question, "is there such a thing as too close."

Might I suggest that "too close" would describe a distance within which a defender suffers death or serious serious injury.

That could happen because the defender is unable to draw and fire before losing the gun or having it rendered inoperable.

It could also happen because the attacker was already close enough to harm the defender.

It could also happen because shots fired by the defender did not stop an attacker soon enough. Bullets rarely stop attackers instantaneously.
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Old Yesterday, 08:40 PM   #73
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If you've determined it is an immediate life or death situation, you do what you can do to try to survive. Assuming you punctured your assailant's heart, you're looking at anywhere between 10 to 15 seconds for that individual to become incapacitated. A lot more can happen in 10 to 15 seconds so you keep fighting, shooting, stabbing, begging or whatever until the threat has been stopped. Main brain housing hits are pretty much instantaneous assuming you actually put one through the individual's brain and didn't just puncture a jaw or whatever. Obviously accuracy is very important in a situation that doesn't lend itself well to accuracy.

On the written confessions of Charles Askins, I'm of the opinion he probably should have been imprisoned and/or hung assuming conviction by a jury of his peers. Keep in mind that back then like now, things are not always so cut and dry regardless of the evidence gathered. For example, read about the "Herrin Massacre" in Williamson County in 1922. My maternal grandfather was a Herrin Police officer at the time and my maternal great grandfather was a deputy sheriff. Twenty to twenty three non-union coal miners were murdered heinously by pro-union supporters after surrendering as they were paraded from their work site and through town with around a thousand pro union lookiloos and participants. My later to become paternal grandparents were union supporters and would probably have assisted in slashing the throats of my maternal relatives had they attempted to intervene. Plenty of witnesses, plenty of evidence, but no convictions.
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