A .22lr for self defense? - Page 2

EnochGale · October 8, 2001, 04:01 PM

We've said this a long time ago. Most guns uses are deterrent anyway. No gun, no deterrent. I think Elmer Keith said everyone thinks a 22 is whimpy till they are on the wrong end of it.

Second, most people with normal hand strength can shoot a non +P semi.

Find a good women's oriented training course. It works wonders than having the big Man teach her.

She will be shooting a 1911 in no time.

355sigfan · October 8, 2001, 06:43 PM

snappy

If she lacks the skill and determination to master something as easy to shoot as a 9mm. She also lacks the skill to have surgical shot placement understress that a 22 would require. Give her a can of pepper spray and call it good. 22 have killed lots of people but they have stopped few. Its one thing to die because you were shot in the back of the head by a assassin and another to stop after being shot when you were charging or trying to do someone harm. The idea of a 22 for defence is laughable.
PAT

MeekAndMild · October 8, 2001, 10:26 PM

Well, IMHO the point is not whether the person likes to shoot but whether they find the gun light enough to carry. For every second they fire the gun in anger they will carry it for months or years.

So if she will carry the 22, fine. That's 99.9999% of the battle. If there is not a close female friend to help her overcome her fears get her to go to a meeting with the Second Amendment Sisters or other women's shooting club.

Then if she happens to meet another lady who is carrying a 9mm or 32, fine, she'll say to herself "Jane there carries one, so I can too". But a 9mm or anything else won't do any good if it isn't carried.

Stopping power? Bah humbug. The first battle is the carry battle. I've seen 400 pound hogs killed with one shot from a 22 and drop like they were...shot. The idea is to have a gun that the person will carry all the time and can empty quickly under stress. No fancy external safeties, no fancy bullets, just a point and click interface.

Shot placement? CBM is good enough at arms length distance.

MatthewM · October 8, 2001, 10:39 PM

Thanks for the reminder! Every time the butcher came to our home to take care of a hog or cow, he ALWAYS used a 22 rifle!!!

A pig is FAR tougher than a person. Ever meet someone with 22" diameter biceps? Mine are under 6". How about a 30" diameter neck.

355sigfan · October 8, 2001, 10:49 PM

Every time the butcher came to our home to take care of a hog or cow, he ALWAYS used a 22 rifle!!!

SO what. It is one thing to shoot a animal in the head that is not doing anything to you than it is to stop a determined attacker. I could hit you and kill you with one strike if I hit you in the right area with just a little force. Is that something I could do in a fist fight most likly not.
PAT

jtduncan · October 8, 2001, 11:19 PM

While I'm a Buckeye and despise Hoosiers or Wolverines, I would never ever ever use a .22lr for anything other than on things with four leggs that weigh no more than 3 pounds.

Even an effective shot is ineffective for self defense. Maybe they'll die in an hour but a lot of bad things can happen before then.

The glock 26 and Glock 19 are popular among the ladies. Double up her hearing and maybe some gloves to absorb recoil.

But 9mm is the floor ofr real self defense.

Or maybe a Kel Tec P-32 with some Hydrashoks or Silvertips. But at least .32 ACP.

jtduncan · October 8, 2001, 11:21 PM

.355sigfan:

What butcher is going to use a .22lr on a hog? That is not humane. At least a 45 ACP to the back of the head at point blank range to kill it very quickly.

What's he doing? Putting the .22lr in the hog's ear? Not clean killing in my eyes.

tstr · October 8, 2001, 11:46 PM

Hi hoosierboy

For a .22lr I would strongly recommend a revolver over an autoloader. The shape and size of a .22 round makes it pretty much impossible to design an autoloader that feeds reliably enough for self-defense purposes.

Regarding .22 ammo, those little hollow point .22's don't actually expand any so they don't offer any real advantage over any other type of .22 ammo. Just find a brand that shoots good in whatever gun you get.

As far as the stopping power issue of a .22, you already know it's not the greatest stopper. Just make sure she knows that too so she is prepared to respond accordingly in a defense situation. Make sure she knows it's not like Star Trek where you pull the trigger and the guy disappears. Teach her to shoot and keep on shooting till it's absolutely plain that she's just wasting ammo. Let her understand that after she's shot someone she needs to be ready to possibly struggle hand to hand some more or be prepared to run if possible or to do something at least until the bullets take effect. As long as she is prepared to handle it, the lack of stopping power won't be as big of an issue.

As far as larger calibers go, don't rush it. Let her take her time. When she does want to try some bigger stuff again, you should locate some good lightweight subsonic 9mm ammo. If you're a reloader or know someone who is, even better. Load up some light ammo and let her try that. Also, when starting someone on heavier kicking rounds, I tell them not to think about aiming or hitting a specific target (other than making sure they hit something safe) or anything like that. Instead I tell them to first learn to enjoy the kick of the gun. Fighting the kick is a killer. Learning to enjoy the kick is fun. See if you can get her to get a kick out of the kick, so to speak.

That's my advice.

BTW, tell her that at least one (and obviously more) of your fellow TFLers are proud of her for picking up a gun and learning how to use it. I kid you not, it makes me smile.

tstr

Oleg Volk · October 9, 2001, 02:24 AM

I've trained one person to fight with a 22. The gun has a record of being 100% reliable and good ammo is used. I brought some duds for failure drills. This person can't hold up a heavier gun or rack a heavier slide or pull the trigger on a revolver, so a .22 autoloader and several spare magazines would have to do it. A single shot might not stop but eleven fired accurately might...and even if the perp is still up, the defender now has an advantage in the fight.

I am not fond of rimfire ammo or of the whimpy round but it improves greatly on the other opeions (OC spray, 911, knife, baton) for a weak person. Training is continued until proficiency is gained: the defender can draw and fire without visually checking the safety, can hit a 3" group at 15 feet rapid fire looking over the sights. Not perfect but far better than nothing.

I think that some here don't understand what it means to be unable to heft a 10/22 or to rack a slide on a 9mm autoloader even with proper technique. Some people are doing all they can to manage a .22 pistol and we better teach them well.

Hal · October 9, 2001, 02:56 AM

Oleg,
Guess that means your Mom isn't going to part with her Buckmark huh?

snappy · October 9, 2001, 06:57 AM

Well said Oleg and I agree 100% with you. 355 sigfan is off in a ditch on his thinking. "she also lacks the surgical shot placement under stress that a 22 would require" Huh?

Give her a can of pepper spray over a .22? Are you kidding? Some people on here think that you have to have at least a 9mm or larger, etc..., I'm not going to get into the whole caliber issue again, but when someone is not comfortable shooting a particular firearm then you train them on something else until they are ready to try another caliber. My 11 year old daughter doesn't care for the recoil and noise of my .45 and 9mm, but will take my old 9 shot H&R .22 sportsman and shoot the bullseye out of a target at 10yds, and then look at me and say I LIKE shooting this gun. She is confident with her ability to use this gun and if someone broke into the house with me not there (God Forbid) they would be in for quite a surprise, it's better than her not having anything.

Quartus · October 9, 2001, 09:45 AM

Well, I can shoot the biggest handguns you can trot out, but if I have to choose between a .22 and pepper spray, I'll have to think about it for a nanosecond or two.

(HINT: pepper spray isn't a man stopper, either.)

355sigfan · October 9, 2001, 10:00 AM

snappy

Ever been hit with pepper spray I have as in the academy. It has a better stopping rate I bet than a 22 in the hands of most people
PAT.

Oleg Volk · October 9, 2001, 12:58 PM

Some advantages to .22: little recoil or muzzle flip which permits fast firing -- important for a mediocre shooter. Little muzzle flash and tolerable noise: personally, I doubt that I would be willing to fire a ported 357 the second time without hearing protection.

Down sides: ammo needs to be rotated regularly (found CCI Mini/Maxi Mags to be most reliable, followed by Yellowjackets), most 22 pistols don't have beveled magazine wells, Buckmark sights aren't great so semi-sighted shooting was taught.

Bottom line is, it beats having nothing and, for my taste, beats pepper spray BUT that is also on hand. Even if the perp is alivve after getting hit once or more, any damage he takes gives the defender an advantage. Since the gun in question is for house only, a 5.5" barrel at least gets decent velocity (1100-1200fps). Unfortunately, even an M1 carbine is out of question and training with a pump 410 is even more so (too complex).

Again, not a great choice but beats realistic alternatives.

Quartus · October 9, 2001, 01:05 PM

Ever spray someone who has been sprayed several times in the past? You take the pepper spray, I'll take the .22 LR.

Nobody ever became resistant to lead.

tyro · October 9, 2001, 02:00 PM

I would prefer to carry my .357 SP101 all the time, but the weight of the Ruger causes my infirm frame more avoidable pain than I am willling to suffer all day long.

For reasons well articulated above, my always carry gun is an NAA .22 Magnum Mini Master. After having the trigger refined by Wayne Martin at the NAA factory, this 4" .22 Magnum is for me - given my physical limitations - just right. It goes into my pocket when I dress in the morning and stays there until I go to bed.

When I leave the house (where Rugers are always near to hand), I supplement the Mini Master Magnum (which stays in the right front pocket) with an 8 shot .22lr revolver in the left front pocket.

Walt Sherrill · October 9, 2001, 04:15 PM

Get that lady a Kel-TEc P-32. The recoil will be almost .22-like due to the locked-breech design, and the gun will be SMALLER than most .22s!

Jody Hudson · October 9, 2001, 04:40 PM

I find no fault with the .22 and I used to carry one as my all the time and only pistol. I found that the other ones went in my bag, pack or vehicle but not on my person because of the discomfort and weight. I used to always use Stingers or Mini-Mags but I've found that the Quik-Shoks are more reliable and FAR more effective on pumkins and critters than the Stingers. Blount also makes the QuikShoks under CCI but they nearly always have to be special ordered.

I work in a gun shop at times and have several handguns of my own, so I was able to offer my girlfriend anything she wanted to shoot.

She found the Makarov nice, and liked the Glock 19 fine, and she found no problem with my small .45. She is amazingly unaffected by the size or recoil of the pistol. She's a good student and has no preconceived notions or training blocks. She had never shot before.

She tried my daughter's Beretta .25 and my TPH .22 loaded with Quik-Shoks (my favorite if I were to carry all the time -- which I used to) and all of the guns were fine with her.

Then I brought home a Kel-Tec .32 and she shot it. She said "I like this. It's CUTE." So she now has it in her purse when it's OK to do so and plans to take a course and get her license ASAP. Why, because it's CUTE.... She is just a girl (she asked me to write that as she glanced over my shoulder). The Kel-Tec has proven reliable, accurate and has nominal recoil.

I suggest that you just get some more pistols and revolvers until you find the one she likes best. I've taught a lot of women to shoot who had never held a gun before and in EVERY case they eventually arrived at a pistol that turned them on and that has made all the difference. The ones that have been chosen by those I've introduced and instructed are: Walther P5 Kompac, Beretta full size 9mm, Llama 38 Super, several Makarovs, Desert Eagle .50 for a 90 lb friend of mine, Glock 19 and 21, a couple of Beretta .25s, Colt old style flat .32 auto, P28, several 1911 .45s and one Delta Elite, several .38s and .357s, a couple of .44 specials and one .44 mag snubby, and one .380 Mac. In each case, I just let them take a look and touch and try several guns, one or two each time we went out and eventually they arrived at the one they wanted to have. Just like men, they make the decision emotionally but we pretend it's well thought out... and sometimes it is.

MeekAndMild · October 9, 2001, 05:20 PM

Quote:

What butcher is going to use a .22lr on a hog? That is not humane. At least a 45 ACP to the back of the head at point blank range to kill it very quickly.

FYI you draw an imaginary line from the left eye to the right ear hole then from the right eye to the left ear hole. Where this imaginary x crosses is where you shoot.

On the subject of .22 wersus larger caliber, I think that the street stats are still running about 3 to 1 in favor of the 22 if you compare it to the 45 ACP. It is not a one shot weapon as a 45 would be in many people's hands.

Quote:

Then I brought home a Kel-Tec .32 and she shot it. She said "I like this. It's CUTE." So she now has it in her purse when it's OK to do so and plans to take a course and get her license ASAP. Why, because it's CUTE....

Interesting. Thats what my wife said too. Also it is light enough to carry all the time.

dsk · October 9, 2001, 05:29 PM

I once had a LEO friend who took part in a training video regarding pepper spray. He proved that a determined individual often isn't slowed down much by it. BTW I was zapped with a stun gun in training, and all it did was give me a huge adrenaline rush. Moral of the story: don't trust your life solely to those gimmicks, even though they may have their place in certain situations. Crowd control is as far as I would go with them.

Regarding the .22, I think the type of gun is going to be as important as the choice of ammo. So far I've only found CCI ammo to be 100% reliable. Remington is the worst in my experience, aside from cheap imported stuff. Regarding guns, the only ones that are really 100% reliable are the full-size ones like the Buckmark and Ruger .22, in which case you forfeit one of the main reasons for going with a .22. The .22 mini-autos are all junk! I'll agree with the others who suggested a revolver, preferably a nine-shot one.

Redneck2 · October 9, 2001, 05:31 PM

My wife is kinda in the same boat. Tried a 38 sp (one round) and laid it down.

Now she has a Kel-Tec 32 acp. It's accurate, fun to shoot, little recoil, and with Glasers or Cor-Bons rates with a 38. Weighs 7 oz. and fits easily in your pocket. Like they said above, the one you're carrying is worth more than a million at home.

I live about 20 minutes from SB. If you want to try the Kel-Tec, e-mail me and we can make arrangements. I have a woods right across the street we can use. Gives me an excuse to shoot more.

October 8, 2001, 11:19 PM	#31
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	While I'm a Buckeye and despise Hoosiers or Wolverines, I would never ever ever use a .22lr for anything other than on things with four leggs that weigh no more than 3 pounds. Even an effective shot is ineffective for self defense. Maybe they'll die in an hour but a lot of bad things can happen before then. The glock 26 and Glock 19 are popular among the ladies. Double up her hearing and maybe some gloves to absorb recoil. But 9mm is the floor ofr real self defense. Or maybe a Kel Tec P-32 with some Hydrashoks or Silvertips. But at least .32 ACP. __________________ The Seattle SharpShooter Reloaded .223 Rem, 9mm, 40SW, 357 SIG, 10mm, 44 Mag, 45 ACP Today?

October 8, 2001, 11:21 PM	#32
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	.355sigfan: What butcher is going to use a .22lr on a hog? That is not humane. At least a 45 ACP to the back of the head at point blank range to kill it very quickly. What's he doing? Putting the .22lr in the hog's ear? Not clean killing in my eyes. __________________ The Seattle SharpShooter Reloaded .223 Rem, 9mm, 40SW, 357 SIG, 10mm, 44 Mag, 45 ACP Today?

October 9, 2001, 02:24 AM	#34
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I've trained one person to fight with a 22. The gun has a record of being 100% reliable and good ammo is used. I brought some duds for failure drills. This person can't hold up a heavier gun or rack a heavier slide or pull the trigger on a revolver, so a .22 autoloader and several spare magazines would have to do it. A single shot might not stop but eleven fired accurately might...and even if the perp is still up, the defender now has an advantage in the fight. I am not fond of rimfire ammo or of the whimpy round but it improves greatly on the other opeions (OC spray, 911, knife, baton) for a weak person. Training is continued until proficiency is gained: the defender can draw and fire without visually checking the safety, can hit a 3" group at 15 feet rapid fire looking over the sights. Not perfect but far better than nothing. I think that some here don't understand what it means to be unable to heft a 10/22 or to rack a slide on a 9mm autoloader even with proper technique. Some people are doing all they can to manage a .22 pistol and we better teach them well. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

October 9, 2001, 09:45 AM	#37
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	Well, I can shoot the biggest handguns you can trot out, but if I have to choose between a .22 and pepper spray, I'll have to think about it for a nanosecond or two. (HINT: pepper spray isn't a man stopper, either.) __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

October 9, 2001, 01:05 PM	#40
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	Ever spray someone who has been sprayed several times in the past? You take the pepper spray, I'll take the .22 LR. Nobody ever became resistant to lead. __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

October 8, 2001, 04:01 PM	#26
EnochGale Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: southwest Posts: 823	We've said this a long time ago. Most guns uses are deterrent anyway. No gun, no deterrent. I think Elmer Keith said everyone thinks a 22 is whimpy till they are on the wrong end of it. Second, most people with normal hand strength can shoot a non +P semi. Find a good women's oriented training course. It works wonders than having the big Man teach her. She will be shooting a 1911 in no time.

October 8, 2001, 06:43 PM	#27
355sigfan Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Posts: 1,388	snappy If she lacks the skill and determination to master something as easy to shoot as a 9mm. She also lacks the skill to have surgical shot placement understress that a 22 would require. Give her a can of pepper spray and call it good. 22 have killed lots of people but they have stopped few. Its one thing to die because you were shot in the back of the head by a assassin and another to stop after being shot when you were charging or trying to do someone harm. The idea of a 22 for defence is laughable. PAT

October 8, 2001, 10:26 PM	#28
MeekAndMild Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2001 Posts: 4,988	Well, IMHO the point is not whether the person likes to shoot but whether they find the gun light enough to carry. For every second they fire the gun in anger they will carry it for months or years. So if she will carry the 22, fine. That's 99.9999% of the battle. If there is not a close female friend to help her overcome her fears get her to go to a meeting with the Second Amendment Sisters or other women's shooting club. Then if she happens to meet another lady who is carrying a 9mm or 32, fine, she'll say to herself "Jane there carries one, so I can too". But a 9mm or anything else won't do any good if it isn't carried. Stopping power? Bah humbug. The first battle is the carry battle. I've seen 400 pound hogs killed with one shot from a 22 and drop like they were...shot. The idea is to have a gun that the person will carry all the time and can empty quickly under stress. No fancy external safeties, no fancy bullets, just a point and click interface. Shot placement? CBM is good enough at arms length distance.

October 8, 2001, 10:39 PM	#29
MatthewM Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,003	Thanks for the reminder! Every time the butcher came to our home to take care of a hog or cow, he ALWAYS used a 22 rifle!!! A pig is FAR tougher than a person. Ever meet someone with 22" diameter biceps? Mine are under 6". How about a 30" diameter neck.

October 8, 2001, 10:49 PM	#30
355sigfan Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Posts: 1,388	Every time the butcher came to our home to take care of a hog or cow, he ALWAYS used a 22 rifle!!! SO what. It is one thing to shoot a animal in the head that is not doing anything to you than it is to stop a determined attacker. I could hit you and kill you with one strike if I hit you in the right area with just a little force. Is that something I could do in a fist fight most likly not. PAT

October 8, 2001, 11:46 PM	#33
tstr Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2000 Location: Oregon Posts: 233	Hi hoosierboy For a .22lr I would strongly recommend a revolver over an autoloader. The shape and size of a .22 round makes it pretty much impossible to design an autoloader that feeds reliably enough for self-defense purposes. Regarding .22 ammo, those little hollow point .22's don't actually expand any so they don't offer any real advantage over any other type of .22 ammo. Just find a brand that shoots good in whatever gun you get. As far as the stopping power issue of a .22, you already know it's not the greatest stopper. Just make sure she knows that too so she is prepared to respond accordingly in a defense situation. Make sure she knows it's not like Star Trek where you pull the trigger and the guy disappears. Teach her to shoot and keep on shooting till it's absolutely plain that she's just wasting ammo. Let her understand that after she's shot someone she needs to be ready to possibly struggle hand to hand some more or be prepared to run if possible or to do something at least until the bullets take effect. As long as she is prepared to handle it, the lack of stopping power won't be as big of an issue. As far as larger calibers go, don't rush it. Let her take her time. When she does want to try some bigger stuff again, you should locate some good lightweight subsonic 9mm ammo. If you're a reloader or know someone who is, even better. Load up some light ammo and let her try that. Also, when starting someone on heavier kicking rounds, I tell them not to think about aiming or hitting a specific target (other than making sure they hit something safe) or anything like that. Instead I tell them to first learn to enjoy the kick of the gun. Fighting the kick is a killer. Learning to enjoy the kick is fun. See if you can get her to get a kick out of the kick, so to speak. That's my advice. BTW, tell her that at least one (and obviously more) of your fellow TFLers are proud of her for picking up a gun and learning how to use it. I kid you not, it makes me smile. tstr

October 9, 2001, 02:56 AM	#35
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	Oleg, Guess that means your Mom isn't going to part with her Buckmark huh?

October 9, 2001, 06:57 AM	#36
snappy Member Join Date: July 18, 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 74	Well said Oleg and I agree 100% with you. 355 sigfan is off in a ditch on his thinking. "she also lacks the surgical shot placement under stress that a 22 would require" Huh? Give her a can of pepper spray over a .22? Are you kidding? Some people on here think that you have to have at least a 9mm or larger, etc..., I'm not going to get into the whole caliber issue again, but when someone is not comfortable shooting a particular firearm then you train them on something else until they are ready to try another caliber. My 11 year old daughter doesn't care for the recoil and noise of my .45 and 9mm, but will take my old 9 shot H&R .22 sportsman and shoot the bullseye out of a target at 10yds, and then look at me and say I LIKE shooting this gun. She is confident with her ability to use this gun and if someone broke into the house with me not there (God Forbid) they would be in for quite a surprise, it's better than her not having anything.

October 9, 2001, 10:00 AM	#38
355sigfan Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Posts: 1,388	snappy Ever been hit with pepper spray I have as in the academy. It has a better stopping rate I bet than a 22 in the hands of most people PAT.

October 9, 2001, 12:58 PM	#39
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Some advantages to .22: little recoil or muzzle flip which permits fast firing -- important for a mediocre shooter. Little muzzle flash and tolerable noise: personally, I doubt that I would be willing to fire a ported 357 the second time without hearing protection. Down sides: ammo needs to be rotated regularly (found CCI Mini/Maxi Mags to be most reliable, followed by Yellowjackets), most 22 pistols don't have beveled magazine wells, Buckmark sights aren't great so semi-sighted shooting was taught. Bottom line is, it beats having nothing and, for my taste, beats pepper spray BUT that is also on hand. Even if the perp is alivve after getting hit once or more, any damage he takes gives the defender an advantage. Since the gun in question is for house only, a 5.5" barrel at least gets decent velocity (1100-1200fps). Unfortunately, even an M1 carbine is out of question and training with a pump 410 is even more so (too complex). Again, not a great choice but beats realistic alternatives.

October 9, 2001, 02:00 PM	#41
tyro Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2000 Posts: 404	.22 Magnum rather than .22lr I would prefer to carry my .357 SP101 all the time, but the weight of the Ruger causes my infirm frame more avoidable pain than I am willling to suffer all day long. For reasons well articulated above, my always carry gun is an NAA .22 Magnum Mini Master. After having the trigger refined by Wayne Martin at the NAA factory, this 4" .22 Magnum is for me - given my physical limitations - just right. It goes into my pocket when I dress in the morning and stays there until I go to bed. When I leave the house (where Rugers are always near to hand), I supplement the Mini Master Magnum (which stays in the right front pocket) with an 8 shot .22lr revolver in the left front pocket.

October 9, 2001, 04:15 PM	#42
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	Get that lady a Kel-TEc P-32. The recoil will be almost .22-like due to the locked-breech design, and the gun will be SMALLER than most .22s!

October 9, 2001, 04:40 PM	#43
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	I find no fault with the .22 and I used to carry one as my all the time and only pistol. I found that the other ones went in my bag, pack or vehicle but not on my person because of the discomfort and weight. I used to always use Stingers or Mini-Mags but I've found that the Quik-Shoks are more reliable and FAR more effective on pumkins and critters than the Stingers. Blount also makes the QuikShoks under CCI but they nearly always have to be special ordered. I work in a gun shop at times and have several handguns of my own, so I was able to offer my girlfriend anything she wanted to shoot. She found the Makarov nice, and liked the Glock 19 fine, and she found no problem with my small .45. She is amazingly unaffected by the size or recoil of the pistol. She's a good student and has no preconceived notions or training blocks. She had never shot before. She tried my daughter's Beretta .25 and my TPH .22 loaded with Quik-Shoks (my favorite if I were to carry all the time -- which I used to) and all of the guns were fine with her. Then I brought home a Kel-Tec .32 and she shot it. She said "I like this. It's CUTE." So she now has it in her purse when it's OK to do so and plans to take a course and get her license ASAP. Why, because it's CUTE.... She is just a girl (she asked me to write that as she glanced over my shoulder). The Kel-Tec has proven reliable, accurate and has nominal recoil. I suggest that you just get some more pistols and revolvers until you find the one she likes best. I've taught a lot of women to shoot who had never held a gun before and in EVERY case they eventually arrived at a pistol that turned them on and that has made all the difference. The ones that have been chosen by those I've introduced and instructed are: Walther P5 Kompac, Beretta full size 9mm, Llama 38 Super, several Makarovs, Desert Eagle .50 for a 90 lb friend of mine, Glock 19 and 21, a couple of Beretta .25s, Colt old style flat .32 auto, P28, several 1911 .45s and one Delta Elite, several .38s and .357s, a couple of .44 specials and one .44 mag snubby, and one .380 Mac. In each case, I just let them take a look and touch and try several guns, one or two each time we went out and eventually they arrived at the one they wanted to have. Just like men, they make the decision emotionally but we pretend it's well thought out... and sometimes it is. __________________ We help people relocate to Rehoboth Beach Delaware. Our Site: www.Kate-Jody.com

October 9, 2001, 05:29 PM	#45
dsk Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2001 Posts: 1,603	I once had a LEO friend who took part in a training video regarding pepper spray. He proved that a determined individual often isn't slowed down much by it. BTW I was zapped with a stun gun in training, and all it did was give me a huge adrenaline rush. Moral of the story: don't trust your life solely to those gimmicks, even though they may have their place in certain situations. Crowd control is as far as I would go with them. Regarding the .22, I think the type of gun is going to be as important as the choice of ammo. So far I've only found CCI ammo to be 100% reliable. Remington is the worst in my experience, aside from cheap imported stuff. Regarding guns, the only ones that are really 100% reliable are the full-size ones like the Buckmark and Ruger .22, in which case you forfeit one of the main reasons for going with a .22. The .22 mini-autos are all junk! I'll agree with the others who suggested a revolver, preferably a nine-shot one.

October 9, 2001, 05:31 PM	#46
Redneck2 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2000 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 519	If you'd like to try something different.. My wife is kinda in the same boat. Tried a 38 sp (one round) and laid it down. Now she has a Kel-Tec 32 acp. It's accurate, fun to shoot, little recoil, and with Glasers or Cor-Bons rates with a 38. Weighs 7 oz. and fits easily in your pocket. Like they said above, the one you're carrying is worth more than a million at home. I live about 20 minutes from SB. If you want to try the Kel-Tec, e-mail me and we can make arrangements. I have a woods right across the street we can use. Gives me an excuse to shoot more.