Real Life Feedback on the Taser C2

[Ginger]

My firearms instructor stated that only 30% of assailants will stop once struck with a bullet, but that 100% of those struck with the Taser C2 will be incapacitated.

My situation involves a specific menace entering my home, with minimal detectibility until entry. His advice was to CC a semi-automatic and also carry the C2 equipped with laser. Any feedback? How do you practice given the cost of the cartridge? What happens if the assailant is in very close quarters and makes contact with you after impact?

Thank you

[Capt. Charlie]

My understanding is, the technology is the same as that in the Taser X-26. If that's true, I've been on both ends of that, and, trust me, you don't want a second shot.

The X-26 uses their patented shaped pulse technology, and it's highly effective, IF deployed properly.

My opinion is, it's an excellent alternative to lethal force, but have that lethal force available, just in case .

[Ginger]

Thank you. Is there some kind of practice device in lieu of discharging an actual cartridge ($) on some hapless volunteer ()?

[AZ Med18]

I have seen the police model taser used and not work, had very minimal effect on the individual. Lets say the fat have an upper hand on the taser and the hugely muscular are screwed.

[troy_mclure]

ive been tazered a few times, it will put somebody down.
however, you only have 1 shot, what if there are 2 or more targets? or it is winter and the target is wearing a heavy leather/motorcycle jacket.
i know for a fact that a police tazer will not penetrate an alpinestars leather motorcycle jacket.

[pax]

Ginger,

I have played with the TASER C2. Didn't get tased directly myself, but did tase a friend.

A few thoughts.

1) When the TASER is deployed the way police use it, it's just about foolproof. However, as we were experimenting with it, we found several potential weaknesses in the TASER when used under conditions it would be used by civilians. Multiply this comment ten-fold if you're not trained in martial arts and do not have the mindset to do whatever it takes to debilitate someone enough to prevent them from following you after the current shuts off.

2) You get ONE shot. If that shot misses entirely, you're toast. Sure, there's that 'drive stun' capability. Truthfully? It's painful but not in the slightest bit disabling. Anyone can fight through it. (Yup, even me -- I did step up for that part of the test.)

3) You get ONE shot. If one probe hits and the other misses, you can use the 'drive stun' capability of the base unit to complete the circuit and put him down. However, you're then stuck right there, in close contact with the assailant. You cannot put the unit down and run away, because as soon as you do, the TASER unit will no longer be in contact with his skin and the ride is over. You probably will not have a hand free to reach for another weapon. So you're stuck right there, continuously tasing him -- and as soon as the battery dies, he will be completely recovered and able to complete his assault with no significant aftereffects, and until that happens, you remain within his reach. What's your plan ... ?

4) If you do achieve a solid hit, the TASER unit stuns the assailant for 30 seconds. The TASER corporation suggests you use this time to put the unit down and run away. How far can you run in 30 seconds? Is it further than an enraged, fully adrenalized man can follow? The instant the 30 seconds is up, your assailant has complete control of his entire body and can do whatever he wants. And ... you left the TASER unit behind, so now he knows you're disarmed.

5) The distance requirements are tricky. The wires allow deployment at distances around 15 to 20 feet -- a long way for a self defense use. As the assailant gets closer, the easier it is to get your hit (which is excellent). However, the closer the distance from which the TASER is deployed, the closer together the probes will be on his body, and the less likely you are to get a full lock-up of his muscles. Ideally, to get a good lock up, you'd want one probe in his upper left quadrant and another in his lower right quadrant -- running electricity through his body core. When you deploy from bad breath distance, you'll have probes barely two or three inches apart. Remember, only the muscles immediately between the probes will be fully locked up. The rest of his muscles remain under his control, to a greater or lesser degree. So the closer the distance at which you use the TASER, the less effective it is likely to be; but the further away you are, the less likely you are to get both probes on his body.

6) The wires are incredibly fragile. Anyone who's been tased before knows this and probably has a plan to do something about that.

Bottom line for me? Having played with the TASER C2 and talked the experience over with intelligent, observant, well-trained friends, I would not bet my personal life on this technology.

pax

PS If you get one anyway, insist on one with the laser aiming device. Without the laser, it's useless. You won't hit anything even at bad breath distance.

Edited to add: Don't worry about shocking yourself with this technology. If both the probes are in his body, the circuit will not travel through yours even if you get your hands on him. You can shock yourself in close quarters if one probe hits him & the other hits you, or if one probe hits him and the TASER unit itself is driven into you -- but in both those circumstances, you'll both be equally affected.

[BullfrogKen]

Ginger,

The C2 is a bit different than the units Policing Agencies use. The C2 delivers a 30 second pulse, while ones agencies use generally deliver 5 seconds.

As policing agencies use it, a Taser is used to bring someone into custody with less risk of injury to both the officers and the suspect. Keep that statement in mind - into custody. Use of Force policies for most departments generally recommend the Taser as a tool for less than lethal situations. They also discuss having another officer in place acting as back-up with a firearm. Use of Force policies do not recommended an Officer use his Taser as an appropriate response to lethal force.

The C2 is intended a tool to use to deploy and buy yourself time to escape, or retreat to a position of strength. It's not a panacea. But it has advantages when used as intended, and it deploys properly. I would not use it as a substitute for deadly force, when deadly force is necessary, or under circumstances that it might not be clear some lesser force by a defender is justified. It is possible someone can experience a serious injury or die as a result of a fall when hit by one. You'll still have to be able to articulate the circumstances under why you used it.

We've evaluated the C2 Taser as a tool for the private citizen. It has it's place. I've taken 2 rides on the C2 Taser myself, and many in our group volunteered as well. Neither of mine were for the full 30 seconds. They are extremely effective if they hit correctly. But there are also simple ways to defeat them. I've also experienced the contact stun. It's an attention-getter, but it's not a sufficient tool for a defending yourself against a determined aggressor.

[csmsss]

No thanks. Not for me. The taser is not a self-defense tool; it is a compliance-inducing tool, and useful only in certain very narrowly-defined situations. If a taser were a proper surrogate for a firearm, why don't police departments issue tasers exclusively? The easy answer is because the taser simply isn't an adequate tool for self-defense.

[Ginger]

These points are all well taken, and thank you.

I'm a bit concerned about how grey of an area the use of the C2 and a firearm might be.

For example, say one uses a firearm against an attacker in the home, but does not use an available C2, could that be problematic legally? Choosing the greater force?

Or say one uses the C2, but the attacker continues to advance, such that it is necessary to then shoot him. Now it could look as if the attacker was disabled, then shot.

Both of these scenarios, as well as some others I can think up, make me wonder what kind of legal ramifications would result from the manner in which this combination of available tools are used, or not used.

Any thoughts?

[Ginger]

Also, is it not possible to reload with a new cartridge? And how do you practice with the C2? Doesn't one probe follow the laser and the other falls below it at a certain distance? So would this mean if wearing a resistent material on upper body aim for the waist/groin?

[Ginger]

Sounds like if I am defending myself in my own home against someone who has forced entry to do bodily harm that I shouldn't waste time tinkering with a non lethal single shot weapon.

Thank you.

[pax]

Ginger ~

Those are good & appropriate questions.

Here's the simplified answer: any time you use deadly force, you must be able to articulate how your life (or another innocent life) was in danger at the exact moment you pulled the trigger. (Of course, whole books have been written to explain the finer points of this overview -- this is the big picture, not the detailed analysis. Start with Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme, which despite being dated remains the best resource on the topic.)

If you are able to articulate how your life was in danger at the moment you pulled the trigger, you'll probably be okay in court. If you can't, you probably won't.

More specifically, if you attempt a lesser degree of force that doesn't work, and then resort to deadly force, that will probably help you in court because it will illustrate your commitment to avoiding unnecessary force and underline that lethal force was a last resort. Depending upon the situation, however, using lesser force might result in your never getting to court in the first place (it's easier to get out of jail than out of a morgue, I'm told. My goal is to avoid both places...)

On the other hand, if you have available a lesser degree of force but then use deadly force without trying the lesser force first, you'll have to articulate in court exactly why you chose the option you did. What was the assailant doing that convinced you that lethal force was warranted? What other options did you consider and discard -- and why did you discard them? Answering these types of questions puts you in approximately the same legal position as ever police officer who's ever had to justify going for a gun when he had pepper spray on his belt. It can be done and it's done all the time in such cases.

Bottom line, if you shoot someone you must be prepared to explain why you did so.

pax

[pax]

Also, is it not possible to reload with a new cartridge? And how do you practice with the C2? Doesn't one probe follow the laser and the other falls below it at a certain distance? So would this mean if wearing a resistent material on upper body aim for the waist/groin?

No, a reload is not a viable option. It's very slow and very clumsy and just not possible.

At $25/shot, the realistic answer is, you probably don't practice with it -- or not much. The company sells a (mylar? aluminum? some kinda metallic) target you can practice shooting at. Costs $10 for the target, but you get to see the electric current through it. Pretty, and pretty cool, but not exactly a cost effective way to practice.

If you have sick friends like I do, you could probably find someone willing to ride the current for you ... once. It's a rare person that'll volunteer to do it again within six months of the first ride, unless there's beer involved.

If you aimed for the waist/groin, there's a good chance that one probe would miss entirely. Your best bet is to aim for the upper center of mass, that way the lower probe is more likely to hit the torso too. You might get a leg with a groin shot, but unless you're very close you probably won't. (Mmmm, not to mention I think the likelihood of a permanent debilitating injury would be somewhat increased with a probe going into the groin area.) Not sure where you would aim at someone wearing a ballistic vest -- but if you have a home intruder wearing a vest, I'd take that as a potential sign that they're not going to be easily deterred by lesser degrees of force.

pax

[Bauer]

The taser seems like a good way to provoke some into a situation where you can legally use the full force of a firearm. Take pax's point of running from a tased man for 30 seconds, he then thinks you are disarmed chases after you. Now, you can pull your gun and test out your hydrashoks. All realness I kid, I wouldn't carry a taser.

[troy_mclure]

this one time....

when we were in iraq we were issued 3 tazers and 15 reloads per squad, 1 for each sqd leader, and team leader.

when we were leaving somebody got the bright idea of ......... TAZER TAG!

15 people running around with the police tazer and a cargo pocket full of reloads shooting each other.

the worst part is if you got hit good, aside from the fall, the guy might let you get to your knees before he zapped you again. and again. sometimes till somebody got him.

i must have had 15 holes in me after that day.

[teeroux]

4) If you do achieve a solid hit, the TASER unit stuns the assailant for 30 seconds. The TASER corporation suggests you use this time to put the unit down and run away. How far can you run in 30 seconds? Is it further than an enraged, fully adrenalized man can follow? The instant the 30 seconds is up, your assailant has complete control of his entire body and can do whatever he wants. And ... you left the TASER unit behind, so now he knows you're disarmed.

I guess I am the only one who wears steel toe boots. Thats 30sec of free uninterupted kickin and stompin time.

[pax]

teeroux ~

You might have a difficult time articulating in court why that was necessary.

Come to think of it, a lot of people decide they will carry less-lethal tools such as TASERs or pepper spray because they "don't want to hurt" the BG. If you do not have the mindset to do whatever it takes to walk away from a criminal assault, these tools have limited value. If you do have that mindset, you might be better served with a more effective tool anyway. I am told it's generally easier to prove in court that you didn't shoot the guy unnecessarily than it is to prove you didn't beat him up too badly.

pax

[Ginger]

Some would argue that the most non-violent thing of all is to prevent violence, I take that to mean by any means necessary

[R1145]

It sounds as if you have a specific threat that is causing you to explore self-defense options. You've sought training, and you have the legal option to be armed.

Clearly, the Taser is an effective tool. Ideally, it doesn't replace a firearm, but provides a less-lethal force option to be deployed in place of lethal force if the situation permits it.

It is second-best to a firearm in a fight, especially against an armed opponent.

Your most tactically effective option would be the firearm.

I have not yet trained with Tasers, but I'd love to have one. I'd still carry a gun, though.

Does your instructor makes money off of Tasers? The quoted statistic sounds misleading, in that it assumes every shot with the Taser is a solid hit, whereas the 30% firearms statistic includes misses, poor choice of caliber/loads, etc. Firearms are nearly 100% effective, too, if one scores a solid hit with a proper round.

[Ginger]

No, he doesn't make money off of them, he and his wife are cops, she carries the taser C2 off duty with her firearm, he was just excited about the product. It seems appealing, one shot only is a problem, I don't need the MP3 player it comes bundled with, and you all have convinced me I'll be a happier camper with the G19. Thank you!

[Teufelhunden]

Short of decapitation, nothing is a 100% man-stopper.

I took the full 5 second ride from an M26 TASER, and have had 7 live deployments on the street that all worked (aside from the guys that managed to break the wire rolling around or falling). I really believe it's an incredible tool that gives me another level between talking and shooting.

I've also witnessed, while working at the jail, a kid walk through the full 5 second ride. It was a picture perfect deployment: one dart between the shoulders, one in the lower back. And the kid kept walking out the slides. He looked like Mr. Roboto, but he kept going. He wasn't an emotionally disturbed person, and he wasn't high--he just really didn't want to be in jail that day.

It's a good tool-but no tool is perfect.

-Teuf

[JohnH1963]

Here is a Taser tactic I saw on a video where a lone officer on the side of a highway tased an individual.

Basically, he tased the man and he went down on the ground. He tried to get up and the officer tased him again with a short pulse. The officer then yelled in a loud, hard, commanding manner if the guy gets up then "I'll hit you again".

The guy did attempt once or twice to get up and the officer hit him with a short pulse until the guy no longer made the attempt. The guy ended up laying flat on his belly and no longer made any attempts to get up. Although, the officer was standing there in the middle of the road holding the taser until backup arrived.

Im guessing short pulses until the target is on the ground then **yell** like a madman that if he gets up then he will be tased then once he tries give him a nice short pulse until compliance.

[EastSideRich]

Holy Cow!!



(get it - Holy Cow??)

[marine0341]

I am sure your firearms instructor has a taser sitting on his nightstand-NOT!
Dude if you worried about self defense get what I got. Ruger.45 ACP, Hollowpoint so the neighbors don't wake.

My opinion if you have the balls to crawl into my house at night then you have the balls to take two in your chest and if you continue to move forward then I just shoot better.

Kill

[Kline605]

My understanding is, the technology is the same as that in the Taser X-26. If that's true, I've been on both ends of that, and, trust me, you don't want a second shot.

I will second this whole heartedly

I will never get hit with it again!!!