Topping off your mag...good idea or bad? - Page 2

wyocarp · February 17, 2008, 05:24 PM

JohnKsa, I understand the process thank you very much. I was commenting that I noticed no difference in the amount of pressure needed to insert a new magazine either way in my G20.

mountainclmbr · February 17, 2008, 05:27 PM

I practice what I shoot. If there are problems I might change before getting a different gun. But, maybe not. I have not changed from full capacity yet.

IdahoG36 · February 17, 2008, 05:34 PM

I always load my first mag to capacity and then chamber a round, and my spare mags are loaded to one less than maximum capacity. It is less stress on the mag springs and helps them to last longer and perform reliably.
For all of you that state the "need" for that extra round in a SD handgun, the average self defense shooting is over in three rounds or less fired.
I used to be in that camp. I felt the need to carry 25-30 rounds for my CCW. Then I realized a few things-
A)If I need 25-30 rounds of handgun ammunition in a SD situation, I am in over my head and should have brought a rifle.
B)Shot placement is king.
C)We don't have roaming gangs of criminals where I live.
D)Zombies aren't real.
My winter carry gun is a Springfield XD .45acp Compact, and for summertime carry, a NAA Guardian .32 acp. 10 rounds and 7 rounds respectively.
It took me a while to overcome this "need" to carry a ton of ammunition for my CCW, but I looked at my surroundings, the community I live in, and the low crime rate, and realized that I am well armed with 7 or 10 rounds.

Wuchak · February 17, 2008, 06:08 PM

Yes, always. The P-3AT is the only semi I carry and I want the extra round of .380. I shoot it this way at the range so I know it's reliable. Mag springs are made to be under compression. If the extra little bit of pressure on the top round from having the mag in the gun is a concern then it's time to change to better magazine springs.

Boris Bush · February 17, 2008, 06:20 PM

Wuchak

I carry my P32 the same way and always top it off at the range before I shoot. It has never failed me. I agree on the mag spring thing too. I will add, the engineers that make them probably expect the mags to be fully loaded and in the mag well locked.

FWIW I had an older SIG P226 that was a tight fit fully loaded, and I got a newer machined slide one and it worked fine with a fully loaded mag inserted on a forward slide, with the same exact mags.......

IdahoG36 · February 17, 2008, 06:35 PM

I should have clarified in my post, I will top off my single stack mags, but not my double stack. My NAA Guardian .32acp has a mag capacity of 6 rounds, so I chamber a round and top it off. I just don't top off my double stack mags.

**JohnKSa** · February 17, 2008, 11:15 PM

wyocarp,

You said:

Quote:

I just got out my G20 and noticed absolutely no difference between having a bullet down the pipe or not when locking a fully loaded magazine in place.

"Having a bullet down the pipe" means that a round is chambered. Whether or not a round is chambered has no effect on how much effort it takes to lock in a fully loaded mag. Is that not what you meant to say?

Quote:

. I was commenting that I noticed no difference in the amount of pressure needed to insert a new magazine either way in my G20.

Ok, just to refresh my memory I snagged one of my brand new G20 hi-caps (never been loaded) and filled it up. Then, with the slide forward (i.e. not locked back) I locked the mag into place in a G20, removed the mag, stripped a round out and locked it into the G20 again. BIG difference--it's significantly easier with the magazine downloaded by one. Dunno what else to say 'bout that...

nemoaz · February 18, 2008, 12:20 AM

Never heard of any federal agency, state/local LE agency, or any military that teaches carrying one less round than capacity in a pistol Nor any experts. Lotsa independent testing and shooting going on, yet no one suggests carrying less than full capacity in a quality handgun. I'll keep doing what the real experts recommend, carrying my pistols at full capacity, 12+1, 15+1 whatever.

Longarms- many teach to carry less than full capacity. My UMP and AR mags are two rounds down. Never heard of a problem with a pump shotgun carrying its capacity.

**JohnKSa** · February 18, 2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

..yet no one suggests carrying less than full capacity in a quality handgun.

As I pointed out earlier, Beretta suggests it in their 92/96 pistols. They don't fit into one of the categories of groups you list, but it's hard to totally discount what they say about their own firearms in the owner's manuals.

If you read this article you'll find another company that recommends downloading their pistol mags by a round. http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_...ns/HG_1207_07/

From a practical standpoint, if you have a gun like my G20 where it can be hard to seat a fully loaded magazine, downloading it by a round makes it much less likely that you'll bobble a reload by failing to seat the magazine.

Again, I'm not saying it's a must/should kind of thing, but clearly in some cases manufacturers seem to believe there's a benefit and it's not hard to see how it could help in certain guns and certain situations.

Creature · February 18, 2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

I do rotate the top round frequently, and check for bullet setback.

Wouldn't crimping prevent setback? Maybe this is a whole other topic, but what causes set back and why is it such a big deal?

David Armstrong · February 18, 2008, 10:21 AM

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. The basic rule is that for double stacks I download. Some older studies showed that the most likely malfunction for double stacks was with the first round in a fully loaded mag. Don't know if that is still true after 30 years, but I'll take probable reliability over probable need for 1 more round. Browning used to (again, 30 years ago) recommend 1 round down in their Hi-Power mags. If I don't have at least 1/4" of compression left I will also download a round for ease in seating the mag.

Mannlicher · February 18, 2008, 11:00 AM

yes, I always chamber a round, then remove the magazine, and top it off. Just no reason not to do it.
My 1911 guns, and my CZ guns don't seem to mind a bit.

BloodyBucket03 · February 18, 2008, 11:24 AM

I never top of my mags. You will end up stressing out the springs in your magazine and when you having to use your weapon in a situation a chance of having a jam can occur. So what I do is I load my mags at half capacity + 1 in the chamber and every couple weeks I rotate my mags around.

**JohnKSa** · February 19, 2008, 02:32 AM

Quote:

what causes set back and why is it such a big deal?

Setback is when the bullet is pushed back into the case. It can happen to a round during chambering if it is not crimped properly or to a round that is repeatedly chambered, even if it IS crimped properly.

Setback reduces the case volume which, in turn, increases chamber pressure upon firing. Some calibers/loadings are particularly sensitive to setback (notably the 180gr .40S&W) and in a round that is sensitive to setback the pressure increase can be sufficient to cause damage to the firearm.

Quote:

So what I do is I load my mags at half capacity + 1 in the chamber and every couple weeks I rotate my mags around.

Underloading by two rounds is pretty conservative--underloading by half AND rotating your mags every couple of weeks is overkill.

shiky · February 19, 2008, 03:37 AM

and its also harmful to the springs in the mags. Keeping springs compressed does not wear them out...thats just an old wives tale. constantly compressing and depressing them will.

gordo_gun_guy · February 19, 2008, 07:16 AM

JohnKsa said it all re setback. I think that was one of the few "problems" I learned about soley through reading gunzines, and I was darned sure surprised that it actually happened to me once!

And, I'll tell on myself: being an engineer by academic training, of course I saved that round, took it to the range, and shot it. I didn't observe any change in felt recoil (from higher pressure due to reduced case volume), the gun didn't blow up, and the next round fed. Still, I would NEVER carry such a round, and having not been killed by curiosity the first time, will NEVER chamber and fire a deformed round again....

tegemu · February 19, 2008, 08:35 AM

Of course, why would you short yourself one round, delay your response time while you jacked in a round, when seconds count, Often you only have one hand available for gun handling, why handicap yourself.

mamboreta · February 19, 2008, 11:02 AM

My P226 at home is always "almost" full. I mean: one round short. Next to my P226 are my other two magazines, one round short each one of them. 14 + 1 + 16 + 9. It´s almost a box of ammo, and that´s enough for me

Most of the use I give to the gun is entertainment, putting holes at the local range, but if I have to carry, I don´t see my chances of surviving being dramatically reduced by having 30 shots instead of 32.

And that´s why I carry a revolver

.

jabotinsky · February 19, 2008, 04:51 PM

I don't carry with a round chambered, so it's always topped off!

ibfestus · February 21, 2008, 02:06 PM

Was in his night stand with a GI 7 rd mag topped off and one down the tube for 20+ years. When he died I fired all 8 rounds and they fed flawlessly as did the 7 rounds in his spare mag. I top mine off and have never had any problems.

**JohnKSa** · February 22, 2008, 12:57 AM

Yup, a good quality, standard capacity, single stack mag shouldn't need to be underloaded. Not always the case with a doublestack magazine, particularly if the manufacturer was bent on getting the absolute maximum capacity possible out of the size available.

B.N.Real · February 22, 2008, 02:15 PM

I've had several auto pistols that did'nt like that last round in the magazine.

Just make sure you chamber a round in the gun,if it's safe to carry that way and delete one round from the mag.

You should'nt have to use a prybar to get your magazine in a pistol.

BloodyBucket03 · February 22, 2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Underloading by two rounds is pretty conservative--underloading by half AND rotating your mags every couple of weeks is overkill.

You are entitled to your opinion. If you have six rounds and 1 in the chamber how many more do you need. The only place where I carried a full magazine and needed to was in Iraqi. I don't believe our local neighborhoods are a combats zone that have armed gunman with AK's and RPG's waiting to shoot at us!

stephen426 · February 22, 2008, 03:27 PM

I've also noticed that it is difficult to lock the mag in place if I top off or insert a fully loaded mag into the gun with the slide closed. I feel it is more of an issue with my Les Baer TR Special. Haven't noticed it in my other guns. Maybe they build their guns too tight.

I don;t top off my other guns anyways. If I go to the range, guns are not allowed to be loaded. Rather than having the extra round floating around, I only carry a full mag and then rack the slide.

Got Lead? · February 22, 2008, 03:32 PM

In Ohio we have an emasculated version of CCW. We can't carry to any place which serves alcohol, nor can we take it to any place that has a No-Firearm notice which is quite a few places in South West Ohio.

That means I need to pull and stow my piece. When I leave my gun in the car I release the mag and put it my pocket. Assuming it won't disturb anything. It's nice to be able to put the round back in the mag. There is also the problem of having to eject the mag and load the extra round.

That being said, I still usually top off the mags and pocket the loose round. One busy day I found 3 rounds in my pocket from where I not capped the rounds after loading.

February 17, 2008, 05:27 PM	#27
mountainclmbr Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: On a mountain in the Colorado Rockies Posts: 966	I practice what I shoot. If there are problems I might change before getting a different gun. But, maybe not. I have not changed from full capacity yet. __________________ "The unfettered free market has been the most radically destructive force in American life in the last generation." - Hillary Clinton

February 18, 2008, 11:00 AM	#37
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	yes, I always chamber a round, then remove the magazine, and top it off. Just no reason not to do it. My 1911 guns, and my CZ guns don't seem to mind a bit. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

February 18, 2008, 11:24 AM	#38
BloodyBucket03 Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2005 Location: Wake Forest, North Carolina Posts: 188	Topping Off Mag I never top of my mags. You will end up stressing out the springs in your magazine and when you having to use your weapon in a situation a chance of having a jam can occur. So what I do is I load my mags at half capacity + 1 in the chamber and every couple weeks I rotate my mags around. __________________ "Better to fight for something than live for nothing."-General George S. Patton "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buyone.'' Luke 22:36

February 19, 2008, 07:16 AM	#41
gordo_gun_guy Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2007 Posts: 250	Creature: JohnKsa said it all re setback. I think that was one of the few "problems" I learned about soley through reading gunzines, and I was darned sure surprised that it actually happened to me once! And, I'll tell on myself: being an engineer by academic training, of course I saved that round, took it to the range, and shot it. I didn't observe any change in felt recoil (from higher pressure due to reduced case volume), the gun didn't blow up, and the next round fed. Still, I would NEVER carry such a round, and having not been killed by curiosity the first time, will NEVER chamber and fire a deformed round again.... __________________ Gordo In need of a new pithy quote.... Last edited by gordo_gun_guy; February 19, 2008 at 07:17 AM. Reason: typos

February 19, 2008, 08:35 AM	#42
tegemu Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2005 Location: Orange Park, Fla Posts: 1,019	Of course, why would you short yourself one round, delay your response time while you jacked in a round, when seconds count, Often you only have one hand available for gun handling, why handicap yourself. __________________ People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell

February 17, 2008, 05:24 PM	#26
wyocarp Junior member Join Date: December 23, 2007 Location: Wyoming Posts: 169	JohnKsa, I understand the process thank you very much. I was commenting that I noticed no difference in the amount of pressure needed to insert a new magazine either way in my G20.

February 17, 2008, 05:34 PM	#28
IdahoG36 Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 2,993	I always load my first mag to capacity and then chamber a round, and my spare mags are loaded to one less than maximum capacity. It is less stress on the mag springs and helps them to last longer and perform reliably. For all of you that state the "need" for that extra round in a SD handgun, the average self defense shooting is over in three rounds or less fired. I used to be in that camp. I felt the need to carry 25-30 rounds for my CCW. Then I realized a few things- A)If I need 25-30 rounds of handgun ammunition in a SD situation, I am in over my head and should have brought a rifle. B)Shot placement is king. C)We don't have roaming gangs of criminals where I live. D)Zombies aren't real. My winter carry gun is a Springfield XD .45acp Compact, and for summertime carry, a NAA Guardian .32 acp. 10 rounds and 7 rounds respectively. It took me a while to overcome this "need" to carry a ton of ammunition for my CCW, but I looked at my surroundings, the community I live in, and the low crime rate, and realized that I am well armed with 7 or 10 rounds.

February 17, 2008, 06:08 PM	#29
Wuchak Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 1,093	Yes, always. The P-3AT is the only semi I carry and I want the extra round of .380. I shoot it this way at the range so I know it's reliable. Mag springs are made to be under compression. If the extra little bit of pressure on the top round from having the mag in the gun is a concern then it's time to change to better magazine springs.

February 17, 2008, 06:20 PM	#30
Boris Bush Junior member Join Date: September 7, 2007 Posts: 921	Wuchak I carry my P32 the same way and always top it off at the range before I shoot. It has never failed me. I agree on the mag spring thing too. I will add, the engineers that make them probably expect the mags to be fully loaded and in the mag well locked. FWIW I had an older SIG P226 that was a tight fit fully loaded, and I got a newer machined slide one and it worked fine with a fully loaded mag inserted on a forward slide, with the same exact mags.......

February 17, 2008, 06:35 PM	#31
IdahoG36 Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 2,993	I should have clarified in my post, I will top off my single stack mags, but not my double stack. My NAA Guardian .32acp has a mag capacity of 6 rounds, so I chamber a round and top it off. I just don't top off my double stack mags.

February 18, 2008, 12:20 AM	#33
nemoaz Junior member Join Date: May 4, 2007 Location: Meechigan Posts: 492	Never heard of any federal agency, state/local LE agency, or any military that teaches carrying one less round than capacity in a pistol Nor any experts. Lotsa independent testing and shooting going on, yet no one suggests carrying less than full capacity in a quality handgun. I'll keep doing what the real experts recommend, carrying my pistols at full capacity, 12+1, 15+1 whatever. Longarms- many teach to carry less than full capacity. My UMP and AR mags are two rounds down. Never heard of a problem with a pump shotgun carrying its capacity.

February 18, 2008, 10:21 AM	#36
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. The basic rule is that for double stacks I download. Some older studies showed that the most likely malfunction for double stacks was with the first round in a fully loaded mag. Don't know if that is still true after 30 years, but I'll take probable reliability over probable need for 1 more round. Browning used to (again, 30 years ago) recommend 1 round down in their Hi-Power mags. If I don't have at least 1/4" of compression left I will also download a round for ease in seating the mag.

February 19, 2008, 03:37 AM	#40
shiky Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 139	and its also harmful to the springs in the mags. Keeping springs compressed does not wear them out...thats just an old wives tale. constantly compressing and depressing them will.

February 19, 2008, 11:02 AM	#43
mamboreta Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Posts: 92	My P226 at home is always "almost" full. I mean: one round short. Next to my P226 are my other two magazines, one round short each one of them. 14 + 1 + 16 + 9. It´s almost a box of ammo, and that´s enough for me Most of the use I give to the gun is entertainment, putting holes at the local range, but if I have to carry, I don´t see my chances of surviving being dramatically reduced by having 30 shots instead of 32. And that´s why I carry a revolver .

February 19, 2008, 04:51 PM	#44
jabotinsky Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 105	I don't carry with a round chambered, so it's always topped off!

February 21, 2008, 02:06 PM	#45
ibfestus Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2006 Location: Smack dab in the middle of it... The good ol' USA that is. Posts: 126	My Dad's 1911A1 Was in his night stand with a GI 7 rd mag topped off and one down the tube for 20+ years. When he died I fired all 8 rounds and they fed flawlessly as did the 7 rounds in his spare mag. I top mine off and have never had any problems.

February 22, 2008, 12:57 AM	#46
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,990	Yup, a good quality, standard capacity, single stack mag shouldn't need to be underloaded. Not always the case with a doublestack magazine, particularly if the manufacturer was bent on getting the absolute maximum capacity possible out of the size available. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

February 22, 2008, 02:15 PM	#47
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	I've had several auto pistols that did'nt like that last round in the magazine. Just make sure you chamber a round in the gun,if it's safe to carry that way and delete one round from the mag. You should'nt have to use a prybar to get your magazine in a pistol.

February 22, 2008, 03:27 PM	#49
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I've also noticed that it is difficult to lock the mag in place if I top off or insert a fully loaded mag into the gun with the slide closed. I feel it is more of an issue with my Les Baer TR Special. Haven't noticed it in my other guns. Maybe they build their guns too tight. I don;t top off my other guns anyways. If I go to the range, guns are not allowed to be loaded. Rather than having the extra round floating around, I only carry a full mag and then rack the slide. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

February 22, 2008, 03:32 PM	#50
Got Lead? Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 22	In Ohio we have an emasculated version of CCW. We can't carry to any place which serves alcohol, nor can we take it to any place that has a No-Firearm notice which is quite a few places in South West Ohio. That means I need to pull and stow my piece. When I leave my gun in the car I release the mag and put it my pocket. Assuming it won't disturb anything. It's nice to be able to put the round back in the mag. There is also the problem of having to eject the mag and load the extra round. That being said, I still usually top off the mags and pocket the loose round. One busy day I found 3 rounds in my pocket from where I not capped the rounds after loading.