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January 13, 2008, 02:52 AM | #76 | |
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January 13, 2008, 03:06 AM | #77 | |
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I believe you reach an age when every nuance and exaggeration you tell just seems too heavy to carry. We speak here of "what if." And when I thought about it, there was always some niggling aspect that told me, "Naw, you couldn't even do it then." |
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January 13, 2008, 07:53 PM | #78 | ||||
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Try to stay in the real world, benny. I’ll put my “probably” up against your “in case” any time. Quote:
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January 13, 2008, 08:16 PM | #79 | ||||||||
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January 13, 2008, 09:15 PM | #80 |
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David Armstrong, you said that in a previous post "Benny, if it is my mother please just move back and munch on some potato chips until the BG is gone".
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January 14, 2008, 12:37 PM | #81 | |||
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I, too, feel as though I have to weigh the potential disastrous consequences and its impact on my family. Quote:
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Sure, the bed-wetters and gun-control nazis want to strip away our rights of self-defense, and perverse karma would dictate to let them die unprotected. And a single sheepdog cannot always save the entire flock. But I suggest that the object of your concern should not be just the innocent but just as much the guilty. Imagine the nightmares if the criminal you allow to escape today is the same one that kills your loved one, child, or spouse next year. Not that long ago I thought as you did. But today I have decided it is my obligation, as a member of civilization, to help stop the uncivilized from conquering the civilized. Just my 2¢
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January 14, 2008, 01:22 PM | #82 | |
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However, let's be sincere and practical. Most times when I am out, I am eating dinner with my wife or at Borders. In the summer months, I'm out riding and most likely relaxed. I'm in condition yellow, but it's a very dull shade of yellow. Without warning, an innocent woman screams out, "I'm being attacked and raped!" From a cold, standing start, we are to believe that I am capable of getting up, wiping my chin and saying to my wife, "Excuse me, dear, I have to go kill somebody." Then with a cold, dead-calm, I rip the perp off the lady and Mozambique him into hell. I have to tell you, Shamalama, I've done some thoughtless things in my life. However, when I take an honest audit of my strengths and weaknesses, I don't know if this is possible. For me, the sides of the debate then become, "Yes, we should," and "No, we should not," and "Can we, at all." |
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January 14, 2008, 06:47 PM | #83 | |
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January 14, 2008, 06:54 PM | #84 | |
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January 16, 2008, 07:09 AM | #85 |
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Thousands of years of Jewish scholarship make the answer to this question very simple for me, at least.
"Do not stand idly by while your neighbor's blood is shed." - Leviticus 19:16 "Where is it taught that it is obligatory to save someone who is being pursued by another with the intent to murder? The Torah teaches 'Do not stand by idly when your brother's life is endangered.'" - Talmud, Sanhedrin 73A.
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January 16, 2008, 09:14 AM | #86 |
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Mvpel, I believe the arguement here is whether intervention increases your neighbors chances of having their blood shed.
There is a special place for someone who has a means to help a neighbor about to die and does nothing..............pretty hot there. Last edited by threegun; January 16, 2008 at 10:55 AM. |
January 16, 2008, 11:36 AM | #87 |
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threegun
The cost of doing nothing is your neighbors blood being shed. |
January 16, 2008, 02:15 PM | #88 |
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Hey, the neighbors could have come to gun school with me. They could have attended karate classes like my family does. They could have come shooting with me when invited. Since that hasn't happened, I don't feel inclined to assume all the risk for their safety when they haven't managed to pull their own weight.
There are significant familial obligations that are placed way ahead of obligations of neighbors who aren't activily involved in preparing for their own defense. |
January 16, 2008, 02:22 PM | #89 |
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I posted this once before. If I come to ill by saving my neighbor, will folks from TFL support my family in their current life style? That's altruism also.
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January 16, 2008, 03:00 PM | #90 |
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Only if your actions save the day and only if your inaction would have resulted in their death.
Personally I don't like playing the odds when death is on the line........especially when its my death on the line. I would prefer to fight. |
January 16, 2008, 03:18 PM | #91 |
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So Threegun, are you saying that you would contribute to my family's expenses for an inderminant time? You would contribute a set amount, legally binding except for emergencies, until they pass away?
Altruism on gun lists usually involves shooting someone and little else.
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January 17, 2008, 06:37 AM | #92 |
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Glenn, I was responding to Boris Bush.
To answer your question however, no I wouldn't take up a collection or donate on a regular basis to one. You can however make the decision to be safe and not help a victim. You can also purchase life insurance to protect your family financially should you die for any number of reasons. |
January 17, 2008, 10:44 AM | #93 |
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Then, I return to my initial analysis - that in many of these moral obligation threads - there is a subtext that we find the use of violence in an altruistic or pro-social scenario compelling and attractive. We think that someone should sacrifice their family's well being for the victim.
However, other altruistic acts that aren't based on violence, aren't attractive. Interesting from the viewpoint of the theories of why people act altruistically. If the goal is to help, then why isn't helping in nonviolent situations equally attractive?
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January 17, 2008, 01:33 PM | #94 |
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Bottom line, Glenn, is that you can always, without exception, find a reasonable, rational reason for doing absolutely nothing to help out a fellow human being--whether it even entails any risk to you or not.
I live a comfortable lifestyle. Earned every penny of it. Grew up struggling and poor, which made me all the hungrier. But I also grew up in a poor neighborhood in which we--whites, blacks, Mexicans, whatever--all looked out for each other. We were "those people" who lived on the wrong side of town. The people the banks wouldn't give a loan to for a used car--you had to go to a "tote-the-note" ripoff used car dealer. You couldn't get credit at the local grocery store, etc etc. So we all helped each other and looked out for each other. It was a lesson well learned in unselfishness. Everything I've gained, earned and procurred financially--from our home to our airplane, guns, boat, bank accounts, etc--is not worth the shame I would feel looking in the mirror and knowing that I let someone get harmed, raped or killed simply because I didn't want to risk some sheister attorney or overzealous prosecutor "ruining" me. The minute I did nothing and a life was lost as a result, I became a ruined man. And all the "way I live now" excuses, reasons and rational will not wash away the shame and disgrace I would feel. Jeff
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January 17, 2008, 03:36 PM | #95 |
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It is easy to say that one can face being a ruined man. The point some folks are making and in the theories of prosocial behavior, is it so easy to make your family a ruined family?
Who are you responsible for? Do you alter their lives? And, again, I don't see those who want to act altruistically and violent, saying unconditionally that they would act altruistically to support the family of the dead hero to save them from ruin? Could you look in the mirror and let that happen? Now, Jeff - maybe you would step up to help a family - you seem like that sort of guy - but would others and society? That has to be the part of the equation and is - when people decide to act. Let's pass good samaritan laws that would support the dead hero's family. A simple tax on ammo - say a quarter a box probably would support the prosocial gun users quite well. I would be OK with that.
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January 17, 2008, 08:51 PM | #96 | ||
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January 17, 2008, 09:05 PM | #97 |
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Wolves
Sheepdogs Sheep It really is that simple.
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January 17, 2008, 09:05 PM | #98 |
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armed robbery
I'm all for intervening if you have the means to do so, but this is really kind of a silly debate. What are the chances that an armed citizen is going to be in a store at the exact time an armed robbery is taking place, not very good unfortunatley. I believe these criminals know that to, if more people would start carrying guns the fewer crimes would take place. Think about it, if a guy was about to commit armed robbery and he knew there would be a good chance of he himself getting killed he would probably think twice. More armed citizens fewer crimes it's simple as that.
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January 17, 2008, 09:16 PM | #99 | |
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January 17, 2008, 09:21 PM | #100 | |
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