Preventing primer non-fires in reloaded handgun rounds

B.N.Real · February 8, 2009, 06:25 PM

What do you do to guarantee that your reloaded rounds always fire?

I had a RockChucker single stage press at one time in 38/357 and almost half the rounds I ever loaded failed to fire.

The Dan Wesson I fired them through fired commercial rounds every time.

I bought a brass cleaning tumbler that I cleaned the shells with to keep the crud factor down.

I was using a Lee Hand held primer installer with a round plastic disc that the primers went into.

It had a lever on the side of it that you pressed inward to push the primer into the bottom of the case.

I went so far as to buy and use a primer pocket cleaner tool that I cleaned every casing with and it still did'nt help.

Do you jam the stink out of that primer into that primer pocket for reliable firing?

I used to gently press the primer into the pocket until it was fully seated then release the arm of the seating tool.

As ammo is getting stupidly expensive,I am sriously considering getting back into reloading.

But I prize reliability in my ammo above all other factors.

Please tell what you do to guarantee good firing out of your reloaded rounds.

Thanks in advance.

**Unclenick** · February 8, 2009, 06:49 PM

That many FTF's is odd. Especially if the commercial ammo is OK. High primers (not fully seated) are the usual culprit. When you examine the cases, the back of the primer should be just below level with the flat face of the casehead (the part with the printing embossed into it). You can lay a small steel straight edge across it to check?

The other factor is primer hardness. In large primers rifle and pistol primers are not the same length (rifle primers are slightly taller and don't fit properly in a primer pocket made for large pistol primers). But in small primers they are the same physical size, so it is possible to put the harder rifle primers into a pistol case. It takes a significantly harder firing pin strike to set them off. You may have bought small rifle primers by mistake?

Among pistol primers sensitivity varies, also. Federal are generally considered to be the most sensitive. You might try those?

Scorch · February 8, 2009, 07:22 PM

Fully seat the primers, like Unclenick said.

kyle663 · February 8, 2009, 07:27 PM

from what i've read from other guys here, wolf primers tend to be harder so i stay away from them. i use cci and wichester and havent had any problems yet.

45Marlin carbine · February 8, 2009, 07:35 PM

sounds as if the primers were not fully seated.

Sevens · February 8, 2009, 07:38 PM

One thing you learn pretty quick when you reload .30 Carbine is that you've got to be diligent about your trim length-- they grow and get problematic if not trimmed, but it's just as bad if you trim too much off, because they go too far in to the chamber to get a proper hit on the primer... then you end up with a loaded round, a good bullet, fine powder and a primer that's 100% but it won't sit close enough to get hit.

I cringe when I hear about people trimming non-rimmed handgun brass, I think it tries to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and creates a whole new problem.

Because I load single stage, I've got that priming cup that comes with the press and will prime on the downstroke of the ram if you actually felt like handling primers one at a time... but I often find that when flaring the case mouth of already primed brass, I'll lower the ram to "feel" that my primer is bottomed properly.

I agree though... that many FTF's is some kind of large scale problem, either with your supply of primers, technique or your firearm.

That's abnormal.

crowbeaner · February 8, 2009, 08:07 PM

You have to seat the primers to the bottom of the pocket as has been noted above. This is done by feel; after you load a few rounds you'll develop the "feel" you need. Clean primer pockets insure that the primer anvil and cup don't have any cushion fron residue; I have however loaded ammo that didn't have the pockets cleaned for 3-5 loadings depending on the primer/powder combination"s amount of residual fouling. CB.

joneb · February 8, 2009, 08:20 PM

I load on a SS Rock Chucker using the supplied press mounted priming gadget, I find that some primers are harder to fully seat than others. Federal primers are the softest and easiest to seat while CCI are tuffer. Different brands of brass can complicate primer seating, Win. brass + CCI primers = APITA. Measure your primer pocket depth maybe .121-.125 ish the pistol primer should about .120" so as Uncle Nick said the primer should seat below the base of the case.
On one of my S&W revolvers I relaxed the strain screw a bit, this was OK with reloads primed with F-100 but I had FTF with CCI primers.
I tried some Chinese 9x18 Mak ammo for a East German makarov and had a 10% FTF rate, I don't know if it was the primer hardness or the primer seating

but they would light off on the 2nd strike.

fjlee · February 8, 2009, 09:57 PM

First of all, I take very good care of my .357 Mag primers in storage. They are in airtight container, along with packets of dessicant.

I don't handle individual primers with my bare fingers.

I make double-darn sure that the primer pockets that primers are being seated into are dry and oil-free.

I use the old style Lee "nut-cracker" primer seating tool. I can tell when the primer is seated all the way down, with the primer anvil legs contacting the brass bottom of the primer pocket.

I also make sure my .357 brass is re-sized sufficiently, clear down as far as possible towards the case rim. I want the loaded round to drop allll the way into the chamber, so the the rim of the case is resting fully on the rear end of the cylinder. I don't want the firing pin to hafta seat the primer, nor do I want it to hafta whack the loaded cartridge the rest of the way into the cylinder/chamber.

Keep your cartridges and your revolver chambers clean, dry and gunk free, so the cartridges freely drop in, all the way. If ya hafta give a couple of cartridges a final push with your finger when you load the cylinder up......then something hasn't been taken care of.

Please report back on your efforts to fix a troublesome problem.

Lee in Denver CO

B.N.Real · February 14, 2009, 07:37 PM

Thank you for all your replies.

I am now well armed for any future reloading primer problems.

Again,thanks.

Nnobby45 · February 14, 2009, 09:08 PM

Seat a primer into an empty case using less than normal pressure. You can even feel the primer being a little less than flush. Fire the empty case with primer (use hearing protection--it's louder than you think). You'll likely experience a misfire. The force of the firing pin was cushioned by the primer moving forward to seat itself. It's likely that the second strike will fire the now seated primer.

That experiment will convince you that improper primer seating is the source of your problem. Many of us keep reloading our brass without cleaning primer pockets. That can contribute to improper primer seating, also.

Also, Winchester primers are on the hard side, and contribute to the other factors.

Experiencing so many misfires indicates a tool that isn't doing the job--- or, insufficient hammer force.

If you're gun is tuned so it reliably fires handloads, then it will most likely fire factory ammo reliably.

SwampYankee · February 14, 2009, 09:38 PM

I had the exact same problem with a Rock Chucker RS. As most people have indicated, you are not seating the primers deeply enough. When I started reloading, I read about people CRUSHING primers they pressed them in so deeply. And then I read about people blowing primers up by pressing to hard. So I was super light and careful. But that was the problem so I started cramming them in pretty hard. I have never crushed a primer or blown one up since then and they all seat properly.

I have never contaminated primers or had primer pocket problems, it is always that they were never deep enough.

Nnobby45 · February 15, 2009, 03:01 AM

Simply load some rounds and check the primers. You can easily feel them with your finger and determine if they're BELOW flush. Compare yours with some factory ammo.

FrankenMauser · February 15, 2009, 03:14 AM

If you stop with the Lee tool when you feel the primers seat.... you aren't done. You need to feel the 'crush'. (Just a little in some cases.)

Your primers weren't seated fully. (or possibly contaminated)

Start over, and you'll be fine.

---
Side note: My father 'gently' seats primers for pistol catridges with a Dillon 550B. Every single load I have ever gotten from him required multiple primer strikes on 50% or more of the rounds to detonate. He won't listen to me about proper primer seating....

hodaka · February 15, 2009, 07:24 AM

If the primer did not fire due to the fact that it was not totally seated, a second strike with the firing pin will usually set it off. That will surely tell you if that is the problem vs. some faulty primers.

Alleykat · February 15, 2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

from what i've read from other guys here, wolf primers tend to be harder so i stay away from them. i use cci and wichester and havent had any problems yet.

I'm using Wolf primers now, with excellent results. I'm using their small rifle primers for loading both 9mm and .223s. No light strikes with either, and I'm shooting a G17 and G26 for the 9mm.

James R. Burke · February 24, 2009, 12:35 PM

Unclenick is right. I like to check mine by using a razor blade. I holed it against the center bottom accross the primer. You should see a gap of light If it is below flush.

rodfac · February 24, 2009, 08:47 PM

As an overall first guess I'd suspect the weapon. Oil in the firing pin race or weak hammer springs. That said:

Case and primer problems
1. Clean your primer pockets...every one. When seating primers, they should be just below the the level of the case head. You can just barely feel it when running a thumb over the case head.
2. DO NOT USE WD40 to wipe off case lubricant...alcohol if used sparingly does as good a job.
3. Store primers in their original containers and sealed in a GI ammo can with descicant.
4. How old are your primers. If they fire when struck a 2nd time, it's most likely shallow seating, and no you don't need to crush the h..l out of them to get good ignition.
5. Trim to a uniform length. For .30 M1 Carbine I trim to the minimum length and get good ignition every time...my carbines...maybe not yours. If your chambers are on the long side..ie long head space...this would be the same as having a short firing pin or light hammer fall. For straight walled pistol rounds, I'd check the mainspring tension if applicable on the Wesson. Smiths have one that very infrequently backs out a bit. Lock tite it if this appears to be the culprit.
6. As a last and albeit far out guess, you might have a batch of brass that has overly deep primer pockets....

Weapon problems
1, Check the length of the firing pin protusion. It's gotta stick out far enough to punch the primer deep enough!
2, Clean the bolt and firing pin trace of ALL LUBRICANT...USE ALCOHOL OR BRAKE CLEANER TO REMOVE ALL BUILT UP GUNK.
3, Check all springs...trigger and hammer functioning should be normal

Powder problems
1. How old is this stuff you've been stuffing them with? I had a batch of H-110 a few weeks ago that had gone bad. Nope..no off beat smell either. As a test try a similar load using a different canister or even a different powder. If you suspect the powder, try it in another application...ie a different gun and see if you get good data. A chronograph will tell you something about uniformity but only if you've got similar data to compare it to.

HTH's Rodfac

tac_driver · April 23, 2009, 07:42 AM

I use the lee hand tool also and was having similar problems. Now when i seat the primer I squeeze the handle till it bottoms in the pocket then give it a 180 degree turn and seat it the rest of the way. I never had another problem with primers not seating deep enough again.

Sarge · April 23, 2009, 07:51 AM

I've worn out about three of those Lee hand priming tools, seating primers, to include a couple of rebuilds for each one of them. I can't remember the last time I had a primer that wouldn't fire. If you're having a recurring problem with that I would first suspect the gun, and then the primers.

Some revolvers with short firing pin protrusion and/or aftermarket springs, will fire factory loads, but deal you fits with reloads. Try your reloads in another gun and try and solve this problem by process of elimination.

February 8, 2009, 06:25 PM	#1
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	Preventing primer non-fires in reloaded handgun rounds What do you do to guarantee that your reloaded rounds always fire? I had a RockChucker single stage press at one time in 38/357 and almost half the rounds I ever loaded failed to fire. The Dan Wesson I fired them through fired commercial rounds every time. I bought a brass cleaning tumbler that I cleaned the shells with to keep the crud factor down. I was using a Lee Hand held primer installer with a round plastic disc that the primers went into. It had a lever on the side of it that you pressed inward to push the primer into the bottom of the case. I went so far as to buy and use a primer pocket cleaner tool that I cleaned every casing with and it still did'nt help. Do you jam the stink out of that primer into that primer pocket for reliable firing? I used to gently press the primer into the pocket until it was fully seated then release the arm of the seating tool. As ammo is getting stupidly expensive,I am sriously considering getting back into reloading. But I prize reliability in my ammo above all other factors. Please tell what you do to guarantee good firing out of your reloaded rounds. Thanks in advance.

February 8, 2009, 06:49 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	That many FTF's is odd. Especially if the commercial ammo is OK. High primers (not fully seated) are the usual culprit. When you examine the cases, the back of the primer should be just below level with the flat face of the casehead (the part with the printing embossed into it). You can lay a small steel straight edge across it to check? The other factor is primer hardness. In large primers rifle and pistol primers are not the same length (rifle primers are slightly taller and don't fit properly in a primer pocket made for large pistol primers). But in small primers they are the same physical size, so it is possible to put the harder rifle primers into a pistol case. It takes a significantly harder firing pin strike to set them off. You may have bought small rifle primers by mistake? Among pistol primers sensitivity varies, also. Federal are generally considered to be the most sensitive. You might try those? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 8, 2009, 07:22 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Fully seat the primers, like Unclenick said. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

February 8, 2009, 07:27 PM	#4
kyle663 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: IL Posts: 311	from what i've read from other guys here, wolf primers tend to be harder so i stay away from them. i use cci and wichester and havent had any problems yet. __________________ NRA member 22LR,17hmr, 9mm, 9mm makarov, 38 S&W, 38/357, 41mag, 44mag, 45ACP, 7.62x39, 7.62x54, 222rem

February 8, 2009, 07:38 PM	#6
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	One thing you learn pretty quick when you reload .30 Carbine is that you've got to be diligent about your trim length-- they grow and get problematic if not trimmed, but it's just as bad if you trim too much off, because they go too far in to the chamber to get a proper hit on the primer... then you end up with a loaded round, a good bullet, fine powder and a primer that's 100% but it won't sit close enough to get hit. I cringe when I hear about people trimming non-rimmed handgun brass, I think it tries to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and creates a whole new problem. Because I load single stage, I've got that priming cup that comes with the press and will prime on the downstroke of the ram if you actually felt like handling primers one at a time... but I often find that when flaring the case mouth of already primed brass, I'll lower the ram to "feel" that my primer is bottomed properly. I agree though... that many FTF's is some kind of large scale problem, either with your supply of primers, technique or your firearm. That's abnormal. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 8, 2009, 07:35 PM	#5
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	sounds as if the primers were not fully seated.

February 8, 2009, 08:07 PM	#7
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	You have to seat the primers to the bottom of the pocket as has been noted above. This is done by feel; after you load a few rounds you'll develop the "feel" you need. Clean primer pockets insure that the primer anvil and cup don't have any cushion fron residue; I have however loaded ammo that didn't have the pockets cleaned for 3-5 loadings depending on the primer/powder combination"s amount of residual fouling. CB. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

February 8, 2009, 08:20 PM	#8
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I load on a SS Rock Chucker using the supplied press mounted priming gadget, I find that some primers are harder to fully seat than others. Federal primers are the softest and easiest to seat while CCI are tuffer. Different brands of brass can complicate primer seating, Win. brass + CCI primers = APITA. Measure your primer pocket depth maybe .121-.125 ish the pistol primer should about .120" so as Uncle Nick said the primer should seat below the base of the case. On one of my S&W revolvers I relaxed the strain screw a bit, this was OK with reloads primed with F-100 but I had FTF with CCI primers. I tried some Chinese 9x18 Mak ammo for a East German makarov and had a 10% FTF rate, I don't know if it was the primer hardness or the primer seating but they would light off on the 2nd strike.

February 8, 2009, 09:57 PM	#9
fjlee Junior Member Join Date: November 10, 2007 Posts: 12	First of all, I take very good care of my .357 Mag primers in storage. They are in airtight container, along with packets of dessicant. I don't handle individual primers with my bare fingers. I make double-darn sure that the primer pockets that primers are being seated into are dry and oil-free. I use the old style Lee "nut-cracker" primer seating tool. I can tell when the primer is seated all the way down, with the primer anvil legs contacting the brass bottom of the primer pocket. I also make sure my .357 brass is re-sized sufficiently, clear down as far as possible towards the case rim. I want the loaded round to drop allll the way into the chamber, so the the rim of the case is resting fully on the rear end of the cylinder. I don't want the firing pin to hafta seat the primer, nor do I want it to hafta whack the loaded cartridge the rest of the way into the cylinder/chamber. Keep your cartridges and your revolver chambers clean, dry and gunk free, so the cartridges freely drop in, all the way. If ya hafta give a couple of cartridges a final push with your finger when you load the cylinder up......then something hasn't been taken care of. Please report back on your efforts to fix a troublesome problem. Lee in Denver CO

February 14, 2009, 07:37 PM	#10
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	Thank you for all your replies. I am now well armed for any future reloading primer problems. Again,thanks.

February 14, 2009, 09:08 PM	#11
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Seat a primer into an empty case using less than normal pressure. You can even feel the primer being a little less than flush. Fire the empty case with primer (use hearing protection--it's louder than you think). You'll likely experience a misfire. The force of the firing pin was cushioned by the primer moving forward to seat itself. It's likely that the second strike will fire the now seated primer. That experiment will convince you that improper primer seating is the source of your problem. Many of us keep reloading our brass without cleaning primer pockets. That can contribute to improper primer seating, also. Also, Winchester primers are on the hard side, and contribute to the other factors. Experiencing so many misfires indicates a tool that isn't doing the job--- or, insufficient hammer force. If you're gun is tuned so it reliably fires handloads, then it will most likely fire factory ammo reliably.

February 14, 2009, 09:38 PM	#12
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	I had the exact same problem with a Rock Chucker RS. As most people have indicated, you are not seating the primers deeply enough. When I started reloading, I read about people CRUSHING primers they pressed them in so deeply. And then I read about people blowing primers up by pressing to hard. So I was super light and careful. But that was the problem so I started cramming them in pretty hard. I have never crushed a primer or blown one up since then and they all seat properly. I have never contaminated primers or had primer pocket problems, it is always that they were never deep enough.

February 15, 2009, 03:01 AM	#13
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Simply load some rounds and check the primers. You can easily feel them with your finger and determine if they're BELOW flush. Compare yours with some factory ammo.

February 15, 2009, 03:14 AM	#14
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	If you stop with the Lee tool when you feel the primers seat.... you aren't done. You need to feel the 'crush'. (Just a little in some cases.) Your primers weren't seated fully. (or possibly contaminated) Start over, and you'll be fine. --- Side note: My father 'gently' seats primers for pistol catridges with a Dillon 550B. Every single load I have ever gotten from him required multiple primer strikes on 50% or more of the rounds to detonate. He won't listen to me about proper primer seating....

February 15, 2009, 07:24 AM	#15
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	If the primer did not fire due to the fact that it was not totally seated, a second strike with the firing pin will usually set it off. That will surely tell you if that is the problem vs. some faulty primers.

February 24, 2009, 12:35 PM	#17
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	Unclenick is right. I like to check mine by using a razor blade. I holed it against the center bottom accross the primer. You should see a gap of light If it is below flush.

February 24, 2009, 08:47 PM	#18
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	As an overall first guess I'd suspect the weapon. Oil in the firing pin race or weak hammer springs. That said: Case and primer problems 1. Clean your primer pockets...every one. When seating primers, they should be just below the the level of the case head. You can just barely feel it when running a thumb over the case head. 2. DO NOT USE WD40 to wipe off case lubricant...alcohol if used sparingly does as good a job. 3. Store primers in their original containers and sealed in a GI ammo can with descicant. 4. How old are your primers. If they fire when struck a 2nd time, it's most likely shallow seating, and no you don't need to crush the h..l out of them to get good ignition. 5. Trim to a uniform length. For .30 M1 Carbine I trim to the minimum length and get good ignition every time...my carbines...maybe not yours. If your chambers are on the long side..ie long head space...this would be the same as having a short firing pin or light hammer fall. For straight walled pistol rounds, I'd check the mainspring tension if applicable on the Wesson. Smiths have one that very infrequently backs out a bit. Lock tite it if this appears to be the culprit. 6. As a last and albeit far out guess, you might have a batch of brass that has overly deep primer pockets.... Weapon problems 1, Check the length of the firing pin protusion. It's gotta stick out far enough to punch the primer deep enough! 2, Clean the bolt and firing pin trace of ALL LUBRICANT...USE ALCOHOL OR BRAKE CLEANER TO REMOVE ALL BUILT UP GUNK. 3, Check all springs...trigger and hammer functioning should be normal Powder problems 1. How old is this stuff you've been stuffing them with? I had a batch of H-110 a few weeks ago that had gone bad. Nope..no off beat smell either. As a test try a similar load using a different canister or even a different powder. If you suspect the powder, try it in another application...ie a different gun and see if you get good data. A chronograph will tell you something about uniformity but only if you've got similar data to compare it to. HTH's Rodfac __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; February 24, 2009 at 08:53 PM.

April 23, 2009, 07:42 AM	#19
tac_driver Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 61	I use the lee hand tool also and was having similar problems. Now when i seat the primer I squeeze the handle till it bottoms in the pocket then give it a 180 degree turn and seat it the rest of the way. I never had another problem with primers not seating deep enough again. __________________ http://home.roadrunner.com/~cuttingedgz/ 22/45 Ruger S&W 640 Glock 21SF,S&W 67 Combat,Colt series 80 Combat,Glock 19

April 23, 2009, 07:51 AM	#20
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I've worn out about three of those Lee hand priming tools, seating primers, to include a couple of rebuilds for each one of them. I can't remember the last time I had a primer that wouldn't fire. If you're having a recurring problem with that I would first suspect the gun, and then the primers. Some revolvers with short firing pin protrusion and/or aftermarket springs, will fire factory loads, but deal you fits with reloads. Try your reloads in another gun and try and solve this problem by process of elimination. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.