Anybody load 54r with red dot?

littlephil · April 10, 2016, 05:12 PM

As the title says, I'm wondering if anybody here loads for this round with red dot powder. I just came across "the load" of 13gr of red dot for just about any round .30 cal and up. (Don't even remember how I came across it or how I never saw it before) I've seen it suggested to run normal weight bullets, but also that you can run any from about 85gr and up. I've got some 100gr .312 pistol bullets coming from midway, and I'm interested in making some "bunny" loads to run through my m44. My main question is, how low can I go on powder weight? I'll probably load some at around 13gr as "screamers", but from what I've seen, these will probably be a bit fast for smaller critters.

This is all assuming, of course, that I can get reasonable accuracy with these bullets. As always, I appreciate any help or suggestions.

darkgael · April 10, 2016, 05:27 PM

13.0 Grs Red Dot is a classic reduced load. It was written up for "Handloader Digest" by Ed Harris in 1994. Very popular with cast bullet shooters.

jaysouth · April 10, 2016, 08:00 PM

Are they jacketed bullets?

If yes, I would start at 7-8 grs. Red Dot or bullseye and work up .5 grs at a time until you find best accuracy.

13 grs. RD would indeed be a screamer load for a bullet that weight.

littlephil · April 11, 2016, 05:09 AM

Thanks for the replies.

Jaysouth, they are plated hollow points. I read somewhere online (couldn't find again of course) that the lowest you would want to go with these loads would be 6gr. So 7 or 8 sounds like a good starting point.

I'm pretty excited to try these loads out, if I end up having some degree of success, I'll be sure and update the thread. Bullets should be here Thursday, so I'll probably get some loaded then or Friday. Any other info or thoughts are welcome and appreciated.

darkgael · April 11, 2016, 07:01 AM

A detail to pay attention to when using reduced load in relatively large cases is the position of the powder charge when you squeeze the trigger.
Some propellants are position sensitive; some are not. The common practice is to raise the muzzle of the gun before firing so as to insure that the powder charge is against the primer.
BTW: my favorite for reduced loads is Unique. I have used it in .30-30, .30-06, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .45-70.
Pete

444 · April 11, 2016, 08:18 AM

Yes.
I have tried that Red Dot load using cast bullets in 54R. I didnt really spend much time shooting groups for accuracy. I shot a few shots on paper to set my sight elevation and shot steel.

So, I cant provide much info other than to say they worked and were accurate enough for what I was doing.

littlephil · April 11, 2016, 04:26 PM

Darkgael, wow, I never would've thought that this type of reduced loading could be used for the big boomers too. I'm surprised that it took me this long to come across the info, of course I guess I've never really researched reduced loads. I think I may have stumbled upon it looking for info on loading pistol bullets.

444, thanks for the reply. I'm sure the accuracy of these rifles will probably vary quite a bit. My m44 has always been accurate enough for what I've done with it, which is mostly just shooting at tree stumps or big dirt clumps on my dad's farm. My favorite target was the old concrete water trough in the old pasture. Hits are easily recognized even from the 200yd Mark we shot at it from.

I have however, only run surplus through it and never really put it on paper, so I'm anxious to see if I can get some decent usable accuracy from these pistol bullets.

Thanks again for the replies so far y'all!

Overkill777 · April 11, 2016, 07:45 PM

This makes me really want to get some 7.62x54r dies. Actually I've wanted the dies for a long time, I just don't have any reloadable brass. If anyone has an affordable source of 54r brass let me know.

mannyCA · April 12, 2016, 04:41 AM

At 8-10 grains with a 210grain lyman bore rider I get some good accuracy and cheap loads. Even the 10 year old loves shooting the m39 with that one.

FrankenMauser · April 12, 2016, 04:45 PM

I've run Red Dot and Unique in a few cartridges, including .35 Whelen, .30 WCF, and 7.62x54R, with various bullets (including jacketed, cast, swaged, and plated).

None of the loads ever provided acceptable accuracy. Performance was consistent. But consistently terrible.

Trail Boss proved to be a much better option for "light" loads.

The 4895s are good choices for reduced loads, as well.
Hodgdon suggests a process somewhat similar to using Trail Boss, for H4895 reduced loads. (Document)
And for IMR 4895, they used to have some published data, with additional guidelines to use with cartridges not listed. I can't find it online, but one of our members probably still has a copy of the "old" .pdf document file.

Heavy Metal 1 · April 12, 2016, 05:41 PM

I have used "the load " in my MN. Reasoably accurate. Sound and recoil about like a. 22

littlephil · April 13, 2016, 04:36 PM

Overkill, I've just one of the Lee handloading kits for the 54r, (the one that just requires a hammer)because I don't really have enough brass or shoot my mosins enough to get dies. I've got 60 pieces of brass (I think) for them, and that's because I parted with a good chunk of change to buy two boxes of Winchester and one box of PPU loaded ammo. I haven't checked the wolf or bear ammo recently to see what prices were, or if they even still offer brass cases.

Manny, that's another reason for this excursion, to get the wife (and kids when they're older) more into shooting my rifles. I'll probably try some heavier bullets eventually and see if I can get some decent short range deer loads that she can shoot too if she ever decides she wants to go.

FrankenMauser, for now I only have red dot and 2400 for pistol powders, but I've been meaning to pick up a couple others also. I'll try some loads out with what I've got, but I'll play around with some other powders eventually I'm sure. Thanks for sharing your info, I'll be sure to check it out again if I can't get what I've got to work.

Heavy Metal, was that out of a rifle or carbine? I'm hoping to have something I can shoot in the woods without going deaf or having to wear ear protection all the time. The recoil didn't bother me too much, especially after I put a boyds laminate stock on it, but the muzzle blast was just outrageous.

Thanks again to all for sharing, it's all very appreciated!

res45 · April 13, 2016, 06:43 PM

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot" You can find info on the this load here from the man himself who is a member of the CBA board. He is still alive an kicking and will answer post and PM's http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum...87&forum_id=22

In the 54r I shoot a couple cast loads. My go to load is 16.0 grs. of Alliant 2400 no filler needed and the Lee or NOE 160 gr. RNFP gas checked and sized to .314" My other go to load is 3.5 grs. of Alliant Bullseye and the Lee .314" 93 gr. tumble lube SWC,MV is around 1K fps.

I have tried the 13.0 gr. load of Red Dot in my Mosins and it works well but I prefer to use that powder in reduced 30-30 loads at 7.0 grs. with 150 & 170 gr. cast bullets. You might find some more loads here in the Plinkers Hollow http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum...orum.php?id=48

First 5 shot 50 yd. group I shot with the 2400 load and cast lead.

littlephil · April 15, 2016, 12:13 AM

Res45, dag gone, that's a pretty good group for an old Russian carbine. Thanks for the info and especially the links, I'll be sure to check those out. I'll have to check and see what other kinds of bullets I can find pretty reasonable in some heavier weights too (the pistol bullets I bought were $12 before shipping, kinda hard to beat $.11 each if you ask me). I'm hoping I can get close to the accuracy you're getting from my rifle. Though I'll be using open sights instead of a scope, at least for now.

darkgael · April 15, 2016, 05:53 AM

Res45: Some years ago (a couple of decades actually) I shot a lot of the CBA postals. Mostly I shot pistol matches - won a few also. I used a T/C Contender with a .30-30 barrel at 10". The load was seven grains of Unique under a Lee 120 grain GC bullet cast from WW. Great load with an ES of about 12 (iirc).
Pete

m&p45acp10+1 · April 15, 2016, 10:13 AM

I have done it with 110 grain sjsp and got some powder blowback in charges that were under 13 grains if I remember it right. They shot just fine, just the necks did not seal all the way.

littlephil · April 15, 2016, 01:08 PM

M&p, I'll definitely have to watch and see what happens as far as blow back. I've got some loaded up, starting at 7gr, but I'll have to shoot the rest so I can have the cases to load some more of these. I'll have 20 loaded rounds all together and I'll probably work right up to 13gr between two loadings per case. I'm trying to figure out a rear sight for the rifle right now, but as soon as I get one on there, I'll be ready to shoot some groups.

res45 · April 15, 2016, 07:21 PM

littlephil,I just ran across this the other day. I think I'm going to order one for my 91/30 I'm doing a restore on. Fairly cheap fix if it works.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/mosin-nagant...3D111461708369

Article on the sight.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-target-sight/
Another options.
http://www.mojosights.com/sample-page/n/

littlephil · April 16, 2016, 04:31 AM

Hmm, interesting find res. I may have to check on those when I start working on my 91/30. I'd consider it for the m44, but the original rear sight is completely gone. I've seen the mojos before, but couldn't really bring myself to spend that much on sights for a beat up old mosin. Thanks for the links, and you'll have to do a write up if you decide to try out the sight from eBay.

res45 · April 16, 2016, 11:44 AM

The 91/30 I have is a 1933 HEX receiver from Tula,I gave $100 bucks for it. The stock wasn't beat up but the finish was in fairly rough shape and most of the metal parts had lots of finish ware and the bore slugged at .313" but is in excellent shape.

I've basically finished the stock except for doing a little sanding in the barrel channel and putting down the cork beading in a few places on the action and I still have to blue the barrel. I probably have a week or so working on the rifle off an on before I get it finished. She want look quiet the same as I opted for a more blonde stock with a slight reddish tint.

After some though I think I'm going with the Mojo sight rear only and use my original front post. I'll still have less that $200 in it once I get it finished and if it shoots as well as my M44 I'll be happy.

littlephil · April 17, 2016, 11:42 PM

Sounds like it's gonna be a nice rifle. Mine's also a hex receiver but is mismatched and the stock was pretty beat up. So for right now it's wearing the m44 stock since was just laying around. I did add a timney trigger and wow, what a difference! Plus I like the built in safety with the trigger, MUCH easier to use than the original! As of right now I've got around $200 in it, half of which is the trigger, but it is well worth it.

res45 · April 19, 2016, 06:31 PM

Well here she is,not the best pic but the sun was going down so I took a fast one to post. Still need to put the MOJO sight on.

littlephil · April 19, 2016, 08:10 PM

Wow! That's probably one of the cleanest mosins in military dress I've ever seen. Great looking rifle you got there res!

April 10, 2016, 05:12 PM	#1
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Anybody load 54r with red dot? As the title says, I'm wondering if anybody here loads for this round with red dot powder. I just came across "the load" of 13gr of red dot for just about any round .30 cal and up. (Don't even remember how I came across it or how I never saw it before) I've seen it suggested to run normal weight bullets, but also that you can run any from about 85gr and up. I've got some 100gr .312 pistol bullets coming from midway, and I'm interested in making some "bunny" loads to run through my m44. My main question is, how low can I go on powder weight? I'll probably load some at around 13gr as "screamers", but from what I've seen, these will probably be a bit fast for smaller critters. This is all assuming, of course, that I can get reasonable accuracy with these bullets. As always, I appreciate any help or suggestions.

April 10, 2016, 05:27 PM	#2
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	"The Load" 13.0 Grs Red Dot is a classic reduced load. It was written up for "Handloader Digest" by Ed Harris in 1994. Very popular with cast bullet shooters. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

April 11, 2016, 07:01 AM	#5
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	position A detail to pay attention to when using reduced load in relatively large cases is the position of the powder charge when you squeeze the trigger. Some propellants are position sensitive; some are not. The common practice is to raise the muzzle of the gun before firing so as to insure that the powder charge is against the primer. BTW: my favorite for reduced loads is Unique. I have used it in .30-30, .30-06, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .45-70. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

April 11, 2016, 08:18 AM	#6
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	Yes. I have tried that Red Dot load using cast bullets in 54R. I didnt really spend much time shooting groups for accuracy. I shot a few shots on paper to set my sight elevation and shot steel. So, I cant provide much info other than to say they worked and were accurate enough for what I was doing. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

April 12, 2016, 04:41 AM	#9
mannyCA Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Location: the world Posts: 182	At 8-10 grains with a 210grain lyman bore rider I get some good accuracy and cheap loads. Even the 10 year old loves shooting the m39 with that one. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/mannyCA Shooting ▪Handloading▪Repair▪Maintenance▪Self-Reliance Gun Culture

April 10, 2016, 08:00 PM	#3
jaysouth Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 787	Are they jacketed bullets? If yes, I would start at 7-8 grs. Red Dot or bullseye and work up .5 grs at a time until you find best accuracy. 13 grs. RD would indeed be a screamer load for a bullet that weight.

April 11, 2016, 05:09 AM	#4
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Thanks for the replies. Jaysouth, they are plated hollow points. I read somewhere online (couldn't find again of course) that the lowest you would want to go with these loads would be 6gr. So 7 or 8 sounds like a good starting point. I'm pretty excited to try these loads out, if I end up having some degree of success, I'll be sure and update the thread. Bullets should be here Thursday, so I'll probably get some loaded then or Friday. Any other info or thoughts are welcome and appreciated.

April 11, 2016, 04:26 PM	#7
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Darkgael, wow, I never would've thought that this type of reduced loading could be used for the big boomers too. I'm surprised that it took me this long to come across the info, of course I guess I've never really researched reduced loads. I think I may have stumbled upon it looking for info on loading pistol bullets. 444, thanks for the reply. I'm sure the accuracy of these rifles will probably vary quite a bit. My m44 has always been accurate enough for what I've done with it, which is mostly just shooting at tree stumps or big dirt clumps on my dad's farm. My favorite target was the old concrete water trough in the old pasture. Hits are easily recognized even from the 200yd Mark we shot at it from. I have however, only run surplus through it and never really put it on paper, so I'm anxious to see if I can get some decent usable accuracy from these pistol bullets. Thanks again for the replies so far y'all!

April 11, 2016, 07:45 PM	#8
Overkill777 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2015 Posts: 267	This makes me really want to get some 7.62x54r dies. Actually I've wanted the dies for a long time, I just don't have any reloadable brass. If anyone has an affordable source of 54r brass let me know.

April 12, 2016, 04:45 PM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I've run Red Dot and Unique in a few cartridges, including .35 Whelen, .30 WCF, and 7.62x54R, with various bullets (including jacketed, cast, swaged, and plated). None of the loads ever provided acceptable accuracy. Performance was consistent. But consistently terrible. Trail Boss proved to be a much better option for "light" loads. The 4895s are good choices for reduced loads, as well. Hodgdon suggests a process somewhat similar to using Trail Boss, for H4895 reduced loads. (Document) And for IMR 4895, they used to have some published data, with additional guidelines to use with cartridges not listed. I can't find it online, but one of our members probably still has a copy of the "old" .pdf document file. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 12, 2016, 05:41 PM	#11
Heavy Metal 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2012 Posts: 247	I have used "the load " in my MN. Reasoably accurate. Sound and recoil about like a. 22 __________________ The blood runs free, the rain turns red, give me the wine, you keep the bread.

April 13, 2016, 04:36 PM	#12
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Overkill, I've just one of the Lee handloading kits for the 54r, (the one that just requires a hammer)because I don't really have enough brass or shoot my mosins enough to get dies. I've got 60 pieces of brass (I think) for them, and that's because I parted with a good chunk of change to buy two boxes of Winchester and one box of PPU loaded ammo. I haven't checked the wolf or bear ammo recently to see what prices were, or if they even still offer brass cases. Manny, that's another reason for this excursion, to get the wife (and kids when they're older) more into shooting my rifles. I'll probably try some heavier bullets eventually and see if I can get some decent short range deer loads that she can shoot too if she ever decides she wants to go. FrankenMauser, for now I only have red dot and 2400 for pistol powders, but I've been meaning to pick up a couple others also. I'll try some loads out with what I've got, but I'll play around with some other powders eventually I'm sure. Thanks for sharing your info, I'll be sure to check it out again if I can't get what I've got to work. Heavy Metal, was that out of a rifle or carbine? I'm hoping to have something I can shoot in the woods without going deaf or having to wear ear protection all the time. The recoil didn't bother me too much, especially after I put a boyds laminate stock on it, but the muzzle blast was just outrageous. Thanks again to all for sharing, it's all very appreciated!

April 13, 2016, 06:43 PM	#13
res45 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 753	"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot" You can find info on the this load here from the man himself who is a member of the CBA board. He is still alive an kicking and will answer post and PM's http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum...87&forum_id=22 In the 54r I shoot a couple cast loads. My go to load is 16.0 grs. of Alliant 2400 no filler needed and the Lee or NOE 160 gr. RNFP gas checked and sized to .314" My other go to load is 3.5 grs. of Alliant Bullseye and the Lee .314" 93 gr. tumble lube SWC,MV is around 1K fps. I have tried the 13.0 gr. load of Red Dot in my Mosins and it works well but I prefer to use that powder in reduced 30-30 loads at 7.0 grs. with 150 & 170 gr. cast bullets. You might find some more loads here in the Plinkers Hollow http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum...orum.php?id=48 First 5 shot 50 yd. group I shot with the 2400 load and cast lead.

April 15, 2016, 12:13 AM	#14
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Res45, dag gone, that's a pretty good group for an old Russian carbine. Thanks for the info and especially the links, I'll be sure to check those out. I'll have to check and see what other kinds of bullets I can find pretty reasonable in some heavier weights too (the pistol bullets I bought were $12 before shipping, kinda hard to beat $.11 each if you ask me). I'm hoping I can get close to the accuracy you're getting from my rifle. Though I'll be using open sights instead of a scope, at least for now.

April 15, 2016, 05:53 AM	#15
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	loads Res45: Some years ago (a couple of decades actually) I shot a lot of the CBA postals. Mostly I shot pistol matches - won a few also. I used a T/C Contender with a .30-30 barrel at 10". The load was seven grains of Unique under a Lee 120 grain GC bullet cast from WW. Great load with an ES of about 12 (iirc). Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

April 15, 2016, 10:13 AM	#16
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I have done it with 110 grain sjsp and got some powder blowback in charges that were under 13 grains if I remember it right. They shot just fine, just the necks did not seal all the way. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

April 15, 2016, 01:08 PM	#17
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	M&p, I'll definitely have to watch and see what happens as far as blow back. I've got some loaded up, starting at 7gr, but I'll have to shoot the rest so I can have the cases to load some more of these. I'll have 20 loaded rounds all together and I'll probably work right up to 13gr between two loadings per case. I'm trying to figure out a rear sight for the rifle right now, but as soon as I get one on there, I'll be ready to shoot some groups.

April 15, 2016, 07:21 PM	#18
res45 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 753	littlephil,I just ran across this the other day. I think I'm going to order one for my 91/30 I'm doing a restore on. Fairly cheap fix if it works. http://www.ebay.com/itm/mosin-nagant...3D111461708369 Article on the sight. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-target-sight/ Another options. http://www.mojosights.com/sample-page/n/

April 16, 2016, 04:31 AM	#19
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Hmm, interesting find res. I may have to check on those when I start working on my 91/30. I'd consider it for the m44, but the original rear sight is completely gone. I've seen the mojos before, but couldn't really bring myself to spend that much on sights for a beat up old mosin. Thanks for the links, and you'll have to do a write up if you decide to try out the sight from eBay.

April 16, 2016, 11:44 AM	#20
res45 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 753	The 91/30 I have is a 1933 HEX receiver from Tula,I gave $100 bucks for it. The stock wasn't beat up but the finish was in fairly rough shape and most of the metal parts had lots of finish ware and the bore slugged at .313" but is in excellent shape. I've basically finished the stock except for doing a little sanding in the barrel channel and putting down the cork beading in a few places on the action and I still have to blue the barrel. I probably have a week or so working on the rifle off an on before I get it finished. She want look quiet the same as I opted for a more blonde stock with a slight reddish tint. After some though I think I'm going with the Mojo sight rear only and use my original front post. I'll still have less that $200 in it once I get it finished and if it shoots as well as my M44 I'll be happy. Last edited by res45; April 17, 2016 at 07:14 AM.

April 17, 2016, 11:42 PM	#21
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Sounds like it's gonna be a nice rifle. Mine's also a hex receiver but is mismatched and the stock was pretty beat up. So for right now it's wearing the m44 stock since was just laying around. I did add a timney trigger and wow, what a difference! Plus I like the built in safety with the trigger, MUCH easier to use than the original! As of right now I've got around $200 in it, half of which is the trigger, but it is well worth it.

April 19, 2016, 06:31 PM	#22
res45 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 753	Well here she is,not the best pic but the sun was going down so I took a fast one to post. Still need to put the MOJO sight on.

April 19, 2016, 08:10 PM	#23
littlephil Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2014 Location: Coshocton, Ohio Posts: 231	Wow! That's probably one of the cleanest mosins in military dress I've ever seen. Great looking rifle you got there res!